Early Prius

Bits_n_Bobs

Hi All,

Half thinking of getting a 05/06 Prius and I don't know all that much about them... Do the batteries etc need some sort of additional maintenance after a set number of years, or is there anything in particular to be wary of with a hybrid vs run of the mill petrol/diesel?

Chippy01

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

Hi All,

Half thinking of getting a 05/06 Prius and I don't know all that much about them... Do the batteries etc need some sort of additional maintenance after a set number of years, or is there anything in particular to be wary of with a hybrid vs run of the mill petrol/diesel?

Mad Lad will be along shortly with as much info as you would ever need.
05/06 Prius is a Gen2 Prius, 1.5 petrol with batteries and electric motor. I've had a 07 for 3 years now, and I've driven it like I would any other family car, (none of that pulse and glide mypermiling stuff) and found it more than capable for the job.
I had it serviced by Toyota (and quite reasonably too) every 10,000 miles and have clocked up 46,000 in 3 years. No major issues.
Traction batteries are basically self maintaining, but the normal 12v battery is smaller than what would be normally fitted to a car of that class, and can be drained very easily overnight if you happen to leave an interior light on by mistake.
Check out the Toyota Owners Club Hybrid forums (UK), and PriusChat forums (USA) for as much info as you would ever need.

My advice would be to drive a couple of them. They are not everyones cup of tea.

And here I am !

No need for battery maintenance, it lasts the life of the car.

They still give decent economy after 300,000 miles, Prius MK II (2004-09) have been known to go over 400,000 miles.

Despite the 1.5 75 hp engine, the motor gives it a lot of extra torque that would otherwise make the care unbearably slow. Total HP is around 110 hp.

There have been a few recalls,

Water Pump

Steering

Accelerator

Though I think it's a precaution as there was nothing wrong with mine, the steering made a big difference, it feels much heavier now.

So you need to do oil and filters every 10K miles.

Sparks 60 odd K miles.

Break fluid every 2 years.

Other than that it's a low enough maintenance car, no timing belts, No alternator at all, A/C is electric. No starter motor, the traction motor does that and the MG 2 acts as a generator and drive motor.

There are no worries about buying a high mileage one, but you still need to check the maintenance history with Toyota.

Basically the Toyota Prius will last as long as any very well maintained diesel, but it will cost less to do so and giving far less trouble than most cars, It is one of the most reliable cars in the world. And miles ahead any Volkswagen Audi Group car/ BMW etc

mgbgt1978

So Mad Lad , does he buy one or not ?????:D
Seriously though OP . Possibly one of the better cars (from the current crop) on the road as regards reliability and MPG.
I'd have 1 myself except for one small problem....I have to use a towbar regularly and the Prius cannot be fitted with one.

mgbgt1978

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

So Mad Lad , does he buy one or not ?????:D
Seriously though OP . Possibly one of the better cars (from the current crop) on the road as regards reliability and MPG.
I'd have 1 myself except for one small problem....I have to use a towbar regularly and the Prius cannot be fitted with one.

I think I did read where some yanks fitted towbars.

Probably a weight limit to protect the inverter though, but I couldn't see pulling smaller loads a problem.

mgbgt1978

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

So Mad Lad , does he buy one or not ?????:D

I can think of far worse cars, so yes why not ?

A good long test drive would be good though like any car.

keithsfleet

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think I did read where some yanks fitted towbars.

Probably a weight limit to protect the inverter though, but I couldn't see pulling smaller loads a problem.

You haven't seen the trailer my ass needs ;-)

Saab Ed

A diesel Megane, 307, Golf, Auris etc etc etc all pretty much out perform a Prius in the real world, both in fuel consumption and out right performance

Prius was invented for High Sulpher diesel burning yanks (which modern European diesels don't like) Even modern European diesels still emit a lot of carcinogens and yanks don't like that. The Japanese were atrocious up until recently at making have decent diesels hence the heavier and less econmic hybrid for yanks.

It suits their emission regulations (commonly regarded as archaic everywhere outside the U.S.) and that's why they buy them.Europeans on the other hand make small diesels with far superior fuel and performance figures and that's why we buy them instead.

mgbgt1978

Deleted User wrote: »

I can think of far worse cars, so yes why not ?

I was only joking there. I can see you're a fan:). Me too.....
As for the towbar issue, the lads in the USA are fitting towbars (manufactured by aftermarket companies) to attach bicycle carriers to. The Prius was not tested for, and is not legally allowed to be used for towing.
This was a decision made by Toyota when designing the car, therefore it does not have any approved towbar mounting points.

mgbgt1978

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

I was only joking there. I can see you're a fan:). Me too.....
As for the towbar issue, the lads in the USA are fitting towbars (manufactured by aftermarket companies) to attach bicycle carriers to. The Prius was not tested for, and is not legally allowed to be used for towing.
This was a decision made by Toyota when designing the car, therefore it does not have any approved towbar mounting points.

Something I didn't know ! :eek:

Saab Ed

Saab Ed wrote: »

A diesel Megane, 307, Golf, Auris etc etc etc all pretty much out perform a Prius in the real world, both in fuel consumption and out right performance

The peius has 110 hp and more torque than a Golf, similar 0-100 kph, so It doesn't really out perform the 1.6 TDI GOLF/ megane etc.

It's a lot bigger than a Golf/ Meagane Auris etc.

Fuel consumption would be similar too or better depending on the driver in some circumstances. Thing is though the Prius won't suffer any of the diesel related problems of a lot of cars today. And it will cost less than most to maintain, and it's more reliable than all of the Euro Soot boxes.

Drove this distance after a fill of petrol, not bad for 10 year old technology !!!

Most modern diesels fail to match, unless it's a Polo Bluemotion 80 hp 0-100 14 seconds and a very small car.

Hers is one from last summer, after 840 kms



Had this much petrol left, I'm not expecting everyone to match this though, but I can get it fairly regularly, over mixed driving inc motorway, speeds 80-120, maybe few stints of 130 kph.

Notice for 5 mins I averaged over 500 mpg ! Between 15-20 mins. :pac:

MuppetCheck

But apart from being cheap and reliable, what else has it going for it?

The interior is horrible in the old models and just about acceptable in the new model, it's not a looker and isn't all that smooth to travel in. Even my elderly father who isn't that picky these days dismissed it as he thought he'd get sea sick driving one and went for an equally nondescript kia instead banking on warranty to cover the bills as opposed to out and out reliability.

visual

So how do you test the batteries ?
Saying its Life time of a car is very vauge as it could mean 2, 5, 7 or 10 years depending on your view.

Plus what is the real world MPG ive heard they are low to mid 50's others say higher some say much less.

anthony4335

I will agree with mad lad about the economy , they seem to be quite good. They are also not bad to drive ,the only issue is with the comfort ,for me at least bought mine a couple of weeks ago and it has given my back some awful trouble. However this is mainly due to a slipped disc L5-S1 and I also had trouble with my previous saab and looks like I might be shifting this one too. Which is with great disappointment as I have enjoyed it outside of the pain (which I am used to ).
It is the only car I have ever owned where I have tried to keep my driving smooth and efficient to gain more mpg. It is because of the bar chart I wonder if they put them into other cars would it change a few driving habits?

anthony4335

Mid 50's is about correct for a good mix of driving

keithsfleet

I remember talking to one of our reps who had the newest generation prius.
He lived just past Newry and commuted to Dublin every day. I know the prius isn't designed for the M1 but he found it hideously under powered and not that efficient overall

At the end of the day I'm an owner and I've not passed on 3rd hand information from someone I know who owns a Prius You see the pictures above. Make up your own mind because at the end of the day I got a good reliable economical cheap to maintain car that I'm happy with and I try and pass on my experience and knowledges best I can. If i get a leaf I'll be met with anti leaf remarks people saying they heard it all only do 50 miles at 90 mph and is ugly etc.

If anyone doesn't like the prius hear is some good advice, don't buy it. It's as simple as that. But don't knock it because you're not interested in it or don't own it.

As for the ride quality. It's far better than my B6 2003 A4. The A4 was like a barge. The Prius has very little body roll where the A4 was trashy over rough road.

I also find the pros far more comfortable than the MK II Focus. Despite the prius seat not being the best is far better than the focus. For which I found the suspension to stiff.

anthony4335

I don't know if they are underpowered but they do seem to be sulggish, unless you select the power mode and then they seem fine. So I would assume that the throttle response is dampened to increase fuel economy. Om my drive home from dublin, the trip was stating a figure of 58.4mpg .

visual

visual wrote: »

So how do you test the batteries ?
Saying its Life time of a car is very vauge as it could mean 2, 5, 7 or 10 years depending on your view.

Plus what is the real world MPG ive heard they are low to mid 50's others say higher some say much less.

You should have to test each individual cell to know for sure. There are still MK1 prius 13 years old on the go. It would be reasonable to expect it to last well over 10 years. It will degrade over time but you should still get good economy after 10 years. Mine is 7 years 93k miles and still perfect as fast as I'm concerned.

anthony4335

About the seat, this seems to be an issue with me rather than the car, as there are many cars I cannot drive for more than 5 mins, and the only one I seem to be comfortable driving is a Kia Ceed (go figure). I like the look of them and the drive, this is why I bought one, I am only going to sell because of my back.

anthony4335

anthony4335 wrote: »

I don't know if they are underpowered but they do seem to be sulggish, unless you select the power mode and then they seem fine. So I would assume that the throttle response is dampened to increase fuel economy. Om my drive home from dublin, the trip was stating a figure of 58.4mpg .

That's the MK III prius then?

How about a swap for a week? :-)

I'm sure if I can match or beat the official mpg from Toyota in the MK II. Then I can in the MK III.

anthony4335

Deleted User wrote: »

That's the MK III prius then?

How about a swap for a week? :-)

I'm sure if I can match or beat the official mpg from Toyota in the MK II. Then I can in the MK III.

HAHA ,If you had a Kia Ceed I would ,currently seems to be the only car I can drive some what comfortably . However I am giving the Prius another week ,as I really do like it. As for the MPG take note I came from a car that did 28mpg, and I didn't care ,so I drove the Prius like so for the first few days.

27cyrix

I bought a 09 prius few weeks ago. It works perfect.
i got 5.3L per km for 300km. mainly running around the town.

one bad thing. driver seat is not comfortable. it is ok for my back. but looks like my neck did a lot of work on a long tour. maybe it is designed for short people.

btw thank you Mad Lad. you might doesnt know me. Before i got my prius. i read all your post about prius. and i made a right decision. : )

27cyrix

27cyrix wrote: »

I bought a 09 prius few weeks ago. It works perfect.
i got 5.3L per km for 300km. mainly running around the town.

one bad thing. driver seat is not comfortable. it is ok for my back. but looks like my neck did a lot of work on a long tour. maybe it is designed for short people.

btw thank you Mad Lad. you might doesnt know me. Before i got my prius. i read all your post about prius. and i made a right decision. : )

Cool glad you like it, glad to be of some help to someone lol I feel I'm beating my head off a wall here sometimes, though I'm on a motors forum and not E.V forum and that makes a big difference.

I bet you can do better then 5.3 !

Is that the MK II or III Prius ?

The seat is not the best but i find a cushion really helps me, but I did hurt my back some years ago too and it comes back to haunt me now and then.

27cyrix

Deleted User wrote: »

Cool glad you like it, glad to be of some help to someone lol I feel I'm beating my head off a wall here sometimes, though I'm on a motors forum and not E.V forum and that makes a big difference.

I bet you can do better then 5.3 !

Is that the MK II or III Prius ?

The seat is not the best but i find a cushion really helps me, but I did hurt my back some years ago too and it comes back to haunt me now and then.

it is a mk2. some ppl around me said that mk3 looks better. but for me, no big difference.

i only drive about 10 km per day. the engine even not heat up when i arrive.
looks like it need more gas at first few miles.
i will see how much i can get next week to donegal. maybe 4.5？ finger cross :P

Oh. does ev mode last 5km? i might try ev mode on next short trip.

27cyrix

27cyrix wrote: »

i only drive about 10 km per day. the engine even not heat up when i arrive.
looks like it need more gas at first few miles.
i will see how much i can get next week to donegal. maybe 4.5？ finger cross :P

Oh. does ev mode last 5km? i might try ev mode on next short trip.

Ah 10 kms a day would explain only getting 5.3, cold weather with the heat up high will also use more fuel as the engine will have to be on more.

Go into climate settings and turn off the AC when you don't need it as when you press ac on the steering wheel it automatically turns on the AC compressor.

No the most you would get on a fully charged battery is around 1 miles at up to 30 mph.

Only use e.v when you are stuck at lights and not to drive as it's not efficient use of the battery energy to drive on it.

The best way to use the battery energy is by depressing the accelerator going down a slight decent or hill and pressing it gently and that keeps the momentum going, using only the motor and that's how I managed over 500 mpg for 5 mins in the pic on the 1st page of this thread.

You can also do the same only this time at speeds up to 71 kph if you depress the accelerator and press it gently so that no energy flows either direction, you are coasting and you can't do that by hitting neutral as it switches on the engine.

Chippy01

Deleted User wrote: »

Drove this distance after a fill of petrol, not bad for 10 year old technology !!!

Most modern diesels fail to match, unless it's a Polo Bluemotion 80 hp 0-100 14 seconds and a very small car.

Hers is one from last summer, after 840 kms



Had this much petrol left, I'm not expecting everyone to match this though, but I can get it fairly regularly, over mixed driving inc motorway, speeds 80-120, maybe few stints of 130 kph.

Here you go Mad_Lad, you showed us yours so I'll show you mine ......
First off, my '07 T-Spirit http://s107.photobucket.com/user/Chippy01_2006/media/26042013040_zpsb658745c.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0#/user/Chippy01_2006/media/26042013040_zpsb658745c.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0&_suid=136877875580102921817353890174

I'll raise your 4.3 l/100km and 82km, to 70.4mpg over 53 miles http://s107.photobucket.com/user/Chippy01_2006/media/17042013033_zps048e1249.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2#/user/Chippy01_2006/media/17042013033_zps048e1249.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2&_suid=136877906881307007580847960857

As for cold weather driving, how's 60.4mpg at 2c over 322 miles? http://s107.photobucket.com/user/Chippy01_2006/media/17042013033_zps048e1249.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2#/user/Chippy01_2006/media/09012013015_zps7acf3957.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4&_suid=136877906881307007580847960857

And 100 miles later at 3c http://s107.photobucket.com/user/Chippy01_2006/media/17042013033_zps048e1249.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2#/user/Chippy01_2006/media/10012013018_zps8d570972.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3&_suid=136877906881307007580847960857

But enough of these extremes, lol. My usual mpg was always within a point or two of this one http://s107.photobucket.com/user/Chippy01_2006/media/17042013033_zps048e1249.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2#/user/Chippy01_2006/media/24042013039_zpse4fdd64f.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3&_suid=136877906881307007580847960857

Bits_n_Bobs

Sorry - just logged back on, thanks for all the replies!

I'm moving from a 530 and I do like a bit of oomph under my boot. However I really have not enjoyed the 1500 motor tax every year. My mileage is low 6/7k per annum. The missus insists on an auto which rules out a surprising number of decent second hand cars. I really don't want to spend much more than 9k, so I'm thinking a Prius would be sensible. And dull.

A bit of me wants another barge and to hell with the motor tax )

Chippy01

Chippy01 wrote: »

Here you go Mad_Lad, you showed us yours so I'll show you mine ......
First off, my '07 T-Spirit http://s107.photobucket.com/user/Chippy01_2006/media/26042013040_zpsb658745c.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0#/user/Chippy01_2006/media/26042013040_zpsb658745c.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0&_suid=136877875580102921817353890174

I'll raise your 4.3 l/100km and 82km, to 70.4mpg over 53 miles http://s107.photobucket.com/user/Chippy01_2006/media/17042013033_zps048e1249.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2#/user/Chippy01_2006/media/17042013033_zps048e1249.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2&_suid=136877906881307007580847960857

As for cold weather driving, how's 60.4mpg at 2c over 322 miles? http://s107.photobucket.com/user/Chippy01_2006/media/17042013033_zps048e1249.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2#/user/Chippy01_2006/media/09012013015_zps7acf3957.jpg.html?sort=3&o=4&_suid=136877906881307007580847960857

And 100 miles later at 3c http://s107.photobucket.com/user/Chippy01_2006/media/17042013033_zps048e1249.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2#/user/Chippy01_2006/media/10012013018_zps8d570972.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3&_suid=136877906881307007580847960857

But enough of these extremes, lol. My usual mpg was always within a point or two of this one http://s107.photobucket.com/user/Chippy01_2006/media/17042013033_zps048e1249.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2#/user/Chippy01_2006/media/24042013039_zpse4fdd64f.jpg.html?sort=3&o=3&_suid=136877906881307007580847960857

Excellent, I never managed 70 odd mpg for long. 60-65 seems to be mainly my average which is still good for a car of 10 year old technology, considering most modern soot boxes can barely get that and are usually smaller than the Prius.

I've never managed 65 mpg in my sisters 90 hp 308 HDI. 58 max, still not bad. I'd rather the prius any day over the 308.

I especially don't like the diesel rattle that doesn't exist in the prius.

Bits_n_Bobs

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

Sorry - just logged back on, thanks for all the replies!

I'm moving from a 530 and I do like a bit of oomph under my boot. However I really have not enjoyed the 1500 motor tax every year. My mileage is low 6/7k per annum. The missus insists on an auto which rules out a surprising number of decent second hand cars. I really don't want to spend much more than 9k, so I'm thinking a Prius would be sensible. And dull.

A bit of me wants another barge and to hell with the motor tax )

How much will you get for the 530 ? I presume it's the petrol ?

1500 in tax will be 9k in 6 years, so why not keep the powerful BMW ?

You won't be spending that much in fuel in 6-7k miles a year either.

You will miss the power.

When they come available, you could try a Leaf as it's off the line performance is far more impressive then the Prius, it won't have the same top speed but you won't be driving that illegally anyway.

Why not hang on to the BMW until then ?

Timmaay

I'm not bashing the likes of the Prius/leaf etc, they certainly have their place in the getting ya from A-B category, but in this case I'd certainly vote to stick with a barge ha, if motor tax/petrol etc keeps going the way it is you could well never get the chance again to own one, as all that will be forsale on the 2nd hand market in the future will be tiny IC engined cars and boring hybrids/EVs.

HandsomeDan

I don't think the prius is quite there yet.

The suspension is way too hard for what is supposed to be a family car - I'm presuming this is on account of the battery weight.

Also, the interior plastics are paper thin - again I'm presuming due to the weight.

HandsomeDan

HandsomeDan wrote: »

I don't think the prius is quite there yet.

The suspension is way too hard for what is supposed to be a family car - I'm presuming this is on account of the battery weight.

Also, the interior plastics are paper thin - again I'm presuming due to the weight.

Prius plastics are due to cost, nothing more.

I don't find the suspension too hard, nor too soft and it's certainly decent at absorbing the tar and chipping crap I've to drive on.

I've not driven the MK III yet.

But for what it is, the Prius is certainly a good car with plenty of space and the MK II for 10 year old tech gets pretty good economy for a good sized petrol automatic.

Bits_n_Bobs

The barge has problems...poor barge....and the folks in the NCT failed it.

I've got a few quotes and it would be €1,500-€2,000 to get right. The big expense is due to the ecu controlling the airbags being f8cked and needing to be replaced, which will be 7/800 euros minimum. And once it's replaced there may be other issues with the airbags which will only then come to light. In the meantime the red airbag light stays on, and it does not get a pass from NCT. Shocking waste as the only alternative is to scrap it. Madness as it's driving perfectly, no rust etc and there's only 107k miles on the clock...but I've already put 400 into it this year and a similar amount last year, so I'm thinking it needs to go.

At this stage the options are a 2005'ish barge which will be expensive to run, service, tax etc etc, but lots of fun and comfy OR get my austerity pants on and get a Prius. Which will be very worthy, reliable and semi-interesting cos it's got lots of batteries!

I can't bring myself to even think of an avensis/passat/accord due to my hopeless car-snobbery A sporty coupe jobby is not really my cup o' tea either...

Timmaay

1st world problems I know :P, but I feel your pain, the day that the likes of purchasing a Prius etc becomes a real possibility for me will be a sad day indeed, my next motor will certainly be a 3L+ petrol, before they get all scrapped! And I've driven 2 or 3 Prius over the years, not a bad car at all for what they are, but buying one is a different story.

27cyrix

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

The barge has problems...poor barge....and the folks in the NCT failed it.

I've got a few quotes and it would be €1,500-€2,000 to get right. The big expense is due to the ecu controlling the airbags being f8cked and needing to be replaced, which will be 7/800 euros minimum. And once it's replaced there may be other issues with the airbags which will only then come to light. In the meantime the red airbag light stays on, and it does not get a pass from NCT. Shocking waste as the only alternative is to scrap it. Madness as it's driving perfectly, no rust etc and there's only 107k miles on the clock...but I've already put 400 into it this year and a similar amount last year, so I'm thinking it needs to go.

At this stage the options are a 2005'ish barge which will be expensive to run, service, tax etc etc, but lots of fun and comfy OR get my austerity pants on and get a Prius. Which will be very worthy, reliable and semi-interesting cos it's got lots of batteries!

I can't bring myself to even think of an avensis/passat/accord due to my hopeless car-snobbery A sporty coupe jobby is not really my cup o' tea either...

That is exactly why i choose prius.
Lots taxi are prius. Reason? you know both of them.

my previous car is a 1.4 barge car. the car is cheap, but the maintain is rocket high. i probably spend about twice money(much more than the value of the car!) on it in last three year.

Bits_n_Bobs

Just to wrap up the thread, I ended up buying a wee Prius. My early impressions from driving it are positive - everything works, it's very easy to drive although the split back window is not easy to see out of, suspect I will get used to it and I got one with the high spec so all the toys are grand though even with the upgraded stereo the sound is only so-so.

I don't think it's going to ever be a car to fall in love with, or even be semi-enthusiastic about driving, however if you're doing a lot of city pottering I think it makes a lot of sense. By all accounts they're pretty bullet proof so I hope to get 4/5 years of trouble free and relatively cheap motoring out of it.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the thread

Excellent, what did you get after MK II, III ?

Bits_n_Bobs

Mk 2 with 67,000 on the clock. I had a trusted mechanic check it out and he told me it was clean as a whistle.

I viewed one other one and got the AA to check it out, complete disaster, sounded like it had been in two significant bumps and the couple selling it were a pain in the ass to deal with. Moral of the story - always get a mechanic who has a clue check cars out, saved my bacon and no question about it AA check cost me 249 and I won't spend that money better!

Good stuff, yeah it's always better to get it checked out.

Over time you should improve your mpg, it take s while to learn when to use the energy in the battery and when not to.

One thing I would say though is don't be tempted to drive in town in E.V mode as that will empty your battery quickly then you will only run on the engine, it's a very inefficient way to use the energy. Only press E.V mode when you're stopped at lights and the engine wants to stay on.

And watch the A/C is off as every time you hit AC on the steering wheel as that will turn on the compressor and that runs off the hybrid battery. And in winter don't set the heat much above 20 as the engine will have to run more to heat.

best to do is when you are moving at up to 70kph back off the accelerator and press gently until energy flows only from the battery, this on slight descents can keep the momentum going for a good distance in the right conditions or back off and press until no energy flows anywhere and the engine is off, you are essentially coasting and that above all is the most efficient.

My GF has the Prius now and drives to Kilkenny and she drives it hard as she has no interest what so ever in saving fuel she drives at around 140 kph there and back and her consumption is 5.5 L/100 km or 51.3 mpg.

That's basically 98% motorway. That isn't bad for such speeds for a petrol automatic or even a Diesel manual. And not bad at all for 10 year old Hybrid technology !

That's her tank average not trip average.

She won't even try use any form of managing the battery energy in town in Kilkenny or from the Motorway home as she doesn't want to know anything about it.

27cyrix

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

Just to wrap up the thread, I ended up buying a wee Prius. My early impressions from driving it are positive - everything works, it's very easy to drive although the split back window is not easy to see out of, suspect I will get used to it and I got one with the high spec so all the toys are grand though even with the upgraded stereo the sound is only so-so.

I don't think it's going to ever be a car to fall in love with, or even be semi-enthusiastic about driving, however if you're doing a lot of city pottering I think it makes a lot of sense. By all accounts they're pretty bullet proof so I hope to get 4/5 years of trouble free and relatively cheap motoring out of it.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the thread

Congratulation!

I just finished my first 1 and half tank fuel. first tank average 5.3. now 4.6.
and everything works.