Cycling through Jack Lynch Tunnel/Dunkettle Interchange

enas

Just read this, about the future upgrade of what has to be one the most cycle-unfriendly places in Ireland: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cwmhkfmhqley/rss2/

There's a very vague reference to cycling:

Plans for a proposed cycle path on a section of the upgraded junction have been refused because the board considered it could contribute to accidents.

I would like to know exactly what were the plans, and why it was considered that it would contribute to "accidents" (with who? with cyclists? or with cars?). Of course, I'm willing to agree, without knowing those plans, that they were indeed dangerous for cyclists. But I get the feeling that once again, there's once in a lifetime opportunity that will be missed. Too bad.

Incidentally, the budget for the upgrade is €100m. This comes just when the construction of the two flyovers on the South Ring is in its final stage, for a cost of €100m too, if memory serves me right. I'm not saying those projects weren't needed and won't bring any benefit, but it's just that at a time when resources are so scarce, and the lack of funding being the excuse number one for not being able to do anything ambitious for cycling, it kills me to think that those €200m could have been used much more wisely for cycling-related projects throughout the city than for those two projects. I also understand the project of the North Ring road is not yet abandoned.

bwalsh1983

The vague reference I imagine is the required response to the National Cycle Policy Framework which requires all planning guidelines/strategies, development plans etc to support cycling promotion as a stated objective.

The possibilty of linking the major employment hub of Little Island, in the long run, may have been overlooked here.

enas

bwalsh1983 wrote: »

The vague reference I imagine is the required response to the National Cycle Policy Framework which requires all planning guidelines/strategies, development plans etc to support cycling promotion as a stated objective.

Is that all? So the catch-all answer for doing nothing will always be that cycling leads to "accidents"? More depressing than I thought.

bwalsh1983 wrote: »

The possibilty of linking the major employment hub of Little Island, in the long run, may have been overlooked here.

The two axes Glanmire/Mahon and City Centre/Little Island have huge transport requirements, but currently constitute essentially a cycling no man's land. It seems they're going to reinforce that state of affairs.

HivemindXX

I took a short term contract in Little Island a couple of years ago. I was thinking of staying in Cork city and cycling out to Little Island every day. I asked a cycling friend from Cork what he thought of that idea and he told me you basically can't do it.

It would be a shame to spend €200 million and do nothing to rectify that situation. Also, wow, €200 million is a pretty big chunk of that billion euro Finian McGrath seems to think motorists are donating to the government.

hesker

Why can't you cycle from Cork City to Little Island.

Head out the dual carriageway and take the exit for Glounthane/Little Island

http://goo.gl/maps/jsyzJ

enas

hesker wrote: »

Why can't you cycle from Cork City to Little Island.

Head out the dual carriageway and take the exit for Glounthane/Little Island

http://goo.gl/maps/jsyzJ

Do you see many cyclists there? I only see road cyclists going for a spin, and even then, I know that many do so by necessity (it's the only gateway to East Cork), but really don't enjoy that section.

It takes the most committed and determined cyclist to cycle on the dual carriageway, pass Dunkettle roundabout, go on to the flyover and past the interchange, now on a three lane dual carriageway, with a 120km/h speed limit, and finally take the exit. The tunnel is banned for cyclists. Supposing there was a way to cross the river nevertheless, continuing then to Glanmire is really just as hairy. No one can reasonably expect masses of people cycling under those conditions. They could have converted the old N25 into a fantastic facility for cyclists, but they missed an opportunity there when they first built what was the Glanmire bypass (the last bit of the M8), by not building an overpass over the old N25 (just North and parallel to the railway: http://goo.gl/maps/B78pd). They then missed again an opportunity when building the tunnel, which initially had plans for cyclists. They now look to enshrine the situation.

I wonder if any study has been conducted to see the distribution of distance travelled for users of the interchange and the tunnel.

Big Eejit

hesker wrote: »

Why can't you cycle from Cork City to Little Island.

Head out the dual carriageway and take the exit for Glounthane/Little Island

http://goo.gl/maps/jsyzJ

Here's why: It's bad enough driving on that road let alone cycling on it.

No hard shoulder to speak of on most, if not all, section to the Island and cycling on the lane proper is dangerous, given that most treat that road as a motorway.

Crossing the Dunkettle Interchange flyover left me feeling very vulnerable the only time I did it - and it wasn't even nearly as busy as it gets in rush hour (Any other time, I slightly pointlessly used the Interchange to avoid the flyover).

But... if I were working in the Island, I'd take the high road out. It's not much longer and it's less windy IMO.

HivemindXX

hesker wrote: »

Why can't you cycle from Cork City to Little Island.

Head out the dual carriageway and take the exit for Glounthane/Little Island

Junctions like this would put me off. http://goo.gl/maps/l40N7

I have not actually tried to cycle this route but I suspect this will be similar to junctions on the N7 where you have cars passing you on both sides at 100+ kph. Plenty of N roads are fine for cycling on, others are this sort of half assed pseudo motorway which are really unpleasant for cyclists.

Big Eejit

Cyclists and cars, I would think. It may have been poorly designed, without due regard for cyclists safety (A common feature of Irish roads ). Sure would be nice to see the plans though.

Guess the road designers will go back to the drawing board then?

enas wrote: »

Just read this, about the future upgrade of what has to be one the most cycle-unfriendly places in Ireland: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cwmhkfmhqley/rss2/

There's a very vague reference to cycling:



I would like to know exactly what were the plans, and why it was considered that it would contribute to "accidents" (with who? with cyclists? or with cars?). Of course, I'm willing to agree, without knowing those plans, that they were indeed dangerous for cyclists. But I get the feeling that once again, there's once in a lifetime opportunity that will be missed. Too bad.

Incidentally, the budget for the upgrade is €100m. This comes just when the construction of the two flyovers on the South Ring is in its final stage, for a cost of €100m too, if memory serves me right. I'm not saying those projects weren't needed and won't bring any benefit, but it's just that at a time when resources are so scarce, and the lack of funding being the excuse number one for not being able to do anything ambitious for cycling, it kills me to think that those €200m could have been used much more wisely for cycling-related projects throughout the city than for those two projects. I also understand the project of the North Ring road is not yet abandoned.

aujopimur

Speaking as a sometime cyclist, anyone who cycles on roads in 100/120kms zones needs their head examined.

elnino23

I've done it twice into the city from cobh taking the dual carriage way and going on the fly over above the dunkettle interchange, getting across the exit lane was basically me slowing waiting for a gap and going like mark cavendish to get across in a gap of no traffic its massively dangerous and I wont be doing it again. I'm now taking the ferry and taking the "cycle" track from rochestown to centre park road. I use cycle track in loose terms as all I seem to get is **** off dog walkers for cycling on it even tho I slow right down and there are massive bike signs all the way along it. Getting from cobh to the city on a bike is a disaster in safety terms. To be honest cork in general seems to be rubbish for cyclists imo

Muckers

Last year I cycled from Waterford to Carrigaline on a Saturday through the tunnel on on to my destination. Have to admit I was terrified in the tunnel and thereafter also. Never again. I only realised afterwards that I should have taken the ferry to Passage west

hesker

enas wrote: »

Do you see many cyclists there? I only see road cyclists going for a spin, and even then, I know that many do so by necessity (it's the only gateway to East Cork), but really don't enjoy that section.

True. I'd have to admit I wouldn't be very comfortable cycling that myself.

I was more reacting to the notion that it can't be done...but I'd have to agree it can't be done without risking your safety more than you should have. There's always the option of going down to the roundabout at the tunnel and taking the exit for the old road..not sure what it's called. But that roundabout is not the safest either.

enas

HivemindXX wrote: »

Junctions like this would put me off. http://goo.gl/maps/l40N7

It then later becomes a three-lane road: http://goo.gl/maps/m6lsn, with the speed limit increased to 120km/h (not sure if it's visible on the streetview image, since it's quite recent). At that stage you have to negotiate your way to the merge lane, which is also the deceleration lane for the Little Island exit. There's no hard shoulder to speak of.

aujopimur wrote: »

Speaking as a sometime cyclist, anyone who cycles on roads in 100/120kms zones needs their head examined.

It's nice to say things like that, but in practice, as I'm showing here, there's little choice, other than not cycling at all (which is the effect indeed of those designs). Even for leisurely purposes, the only acceptable alternative between Cork and all of East Cork and further is via Passage and the ferry -- a long detour that's hardly acceptable (unless one wants to enjoy the route for itself, which is indeed quite nice).

I find it ironic how some people oppose dedicated infrastructure by claiming the right to cycle on the road, when in those situations, the right to cycle on the road has de facto been removed for most cyclists. In this instance, it's a matter of restoring the right to cycle along this route.

Cookie_Monster

aujopimur wrote: »

Speaking as a sometime cyclist, anyone who cycles on roads in 100/120kms zones needs their head examined.

why?
such roads are for the most part wider and have shoulders compared to the 80kph roads that dominate the country. I see little difference tbh, especially since most people will do over 100 on 80 stretch anyway, with less clearence.

2 Wheels Good

enas wrote: »

It's nice to say things like that, but in practice, as I'm showing here, there's little choice, other than not cycling at all (which is the effect indeed of those designs). Even for leisurely purposes, the only acceptable alternative between Cork and all of East Cork and further is via Passage and the ferry -- a long detour that's hardly acceptable (unless one wants to enjoy the route for itself, which is indeed quite nice).

You can take the slip road just after the Dunkettle roundabout and cycle as far as the Fota roundabout and on to Carrigtoohill via the old Midleton road through Glounthaune. That'll get you more than halfways to Midleton without going near the dual carriageway.

ford2600

2 Wheels Good wrote: »

You can take the slip road just after the Dunkettle roundabout and cycle as far as the Fota roundabout and on to Carrigtoohill via the old Midleton road through Glounthaune. That'll get you more than halfways to Midleton without going near the dual carriageway.

And when you get to Cobh cross, cross n25, head towards Cobh and take first left by Bramley lodge and avoid dual carriageway completely.

Big Eejit

ford2600 wrote: »

And when you get to Cobh cross, cross n25, head towards Cobh and take first left by Bramley lodge and avoid dual carriageway completely.

This thread is not really about going to Cobh or Midleton: It's about the upgrading of Dunkettle Interchange and the allowances made for cycling/cyclists (or lack of).

Of course you can do that, but it's a crap road... and why cycle on a crap road when you could (theoretically, at least) cycle on a decent road.

namloc1980

namloc1980

Existing Junction




Proposed Junction

CR 7

2 Wheels Good wrote: »

You can take the slip road just after the Dunkettle roundabout and cycle as far as the Fota roundabout and on to Carrigtoohill via the old Midleton road through Glounthaune. That'll get you more than halfways to Midleton without going near the dual carriageway.

Do you mean along this route?

Edit: Actually, probably this one. Didn't know that road existed. Might start cycling to work so.

2 Wheels Good

CR 7 wrote: »

Do you mean along this route?

Edit: Actually, probably this one. Didn't know that road existed. Might start cycling to work so.

Yep, that's it. Part of this also used by the Cork Tri club for their Tuesday night TT.

enas

namloc1980 wrote: »

Existing Junction
Proposed Junction

Great, thanks! Where did you find those plans? As far as I can see, they're reusing the decommissioned bit of the N25, which, at least, will already result in an improvement, as it will be possible to avoid the interchange altogether, going from West to East (from City Centre to East Cork). Now I wonder even more what were the plans for cyclists, and what were the concerns about them causing "accidents"?

Big Eejit

enas wrote: »

Great, thanks! Where did you find those plans? As far as I can see, they're reusing the decommissioned bit of the N25, which, at least, will already result in an improvement, as it will be possible to avoid the interchange altogether, going from West to East (from City Centre to East Cork). Now I wonder even more what were the plans for cyclists, and what were the concerns about them causing "accidents"?

Possibly that proposed new sliproad that peels off the old road and on to the Glanmire bypass? Can't imagine anyone driving slowly coming off the old roundabout.

I seem to remember seeing somewhere - not recently - that there were plans afoot to develop some sort of cycle-friendly environment from Cork to Midleton along the old road, more or less.

namloc1980

The proposed cycleway is marked in red.

enas

Sorry I didn't do my homework right. Thanks for the information. So this link has all the documentation. First figure here shows the plans for cyclists. As could be expected, it's your usual shared use pedestrian-cycling facility. The worse things is that, as it stands, even that would be an improvement over the current situation. Also, the report stresses that the Blarney Electoral Area Local Area Plan (2011) recognises the need for better cycling connectivity. This takes the following form (link):

3.3.3. To enhance the quality of life for residents of Glanmire, there is an urgent requirement for improvements to the footpath network in Glanmire and the provision of cycle facilities including cycle links to the City and Little Island to facilitate commuters. There is also a need for strengthening of the townscape and public realm.

Still can't find what were the objections in terms of "safety" though.

namloc1980

3. The proposed cycle path from the Dunkettle roundabout extending along Link T1 shall be omitted in its entirety.

Reason: The Board has concerns regarding this proposed cycle route from the perspectives of potential for conflict/accidents and inefficiencies in traffic flow. The Board considered that there may be preferable cycle routes available to cater for those travelling from Dunkettle roundabout to Little Island such as across the tunnel to the East following a route which avoids the busiest junctions and roads and which might be pursued by the National Roads Authority

...

enas

namloc1980 wrote: »

...

Thanks, where do you get that info from?

Unfortunately, this hardly gives any more info. That would confirm the suspicions that this is just a standard response to comply with official objectives of not excluding cyclists, when in fact the opposite effect is sought. Otherwise, why fail to provide a better alternative from the observation that the plans were bad?

namloc1980

Here is the inspectors report from An Bord Pleanala CLICK

It seems the inspector recommended the cycle path be included but the board itself shot it down. From a quick look I can't see why exactly the board went against the inspectors report...anti cycling bias perhaps?

monument

namloc1980 wrote: »

The proposed cycleway is marked in red.

Looking that map and it seems clear there's loads of at-grade crossing.

Maybe it was for good reason the board rejected it, but did they allow it to go ahead without a redesign or any cycling provision?

namloc1980

monument wrote: »

Looking that map and it seems clear there's loads of at-grade crossing.

Maybe it was for good reason the board rejected it, but did they allow it to go ahead without a redesign or any cycling provision?

Yeah they gave it the go ahead without further cycling infrastructure, other than a vague reference for the NRA to look into alternatives if they wish but nothing binding.

enas

monument wrote: »

Maybe it was for good reason the board rejected it,

I've no difficulty in believing that.

monument wrote: »

but did they allow it to go ahead without a redesign or any cycling provision?

But the issue is precisely this. The inspectors report is full of praises about how nice it is to finally provide a decent link between Glanmire and Little Island, and what an important part of the scheme this is, and so on, only to end at an abrupt "The proposed cycle path from the Dunkettle roundabout extending along Link T1 shall be omitted in its entirety." from the board without any real justification (which could have well been justified), and without any request to provide an alternative arrangement. My understanding is that they simply point that it could be done in the future, i.e. never ("The Board considered that there may be preferable cycle routes [...] which might be pursued by the Roads Authority").

PS: The scheme is already an improvement over the current situation, since it reopens the decommissioned bit of the old N25 (that the path was meant to follow), thus giving an alternative to the dual-carriageway (a motorway in all but name). But at €100M, one would expect more. I can only explain that with an institutional anti-cycling bias, which I find surprising in this day and age.