Destruction of Moore Street

tac foley

Ladies and Gentlemen - I share with you a national disgrace.

Texas has The Alamo, a place of sacrifice where their hero ancestors gave their lives so that the Great State could be born. It is, rightly, a national shrine.

Ireland, a country born out of blood and sacrifice, will have..........Moore Street Shopping Mall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AYioUyOSfNE

I really can't think of anything else to say.

tac

gobnaitolunacy

Do we really need yet another shopping centre??

Saruman

What am I missing? That video appears to be about the 1916 rising? Granted I have no sound....

tac foley

Saruman wrote: »

What am I missing? That video appears to be about the 1916 rising? Granted I have no sound....

Uh, yes. One of the most famous actions of the 1916 Rising took place in Moore Street where a small force of patriots held off a battalion of British troops at great cost of life to both sides, particularly the British.

The developer wishes to raze Moore Street to the ground and to build a shopping mall in its place.

tac

Saruman

Ah sorry, I thought the video was supposed to be about the destruction of Moore street itself and the building of another unnecessary shopping centre..

The only way (and this is a long shot) that this could possibly be a good idea would be for Moore street to be preserved within the shopping centre itself. The whole street preserved, essentially Moore street with a roof.

Can't believe this could go ahead. FX Buckley's alone is history worth saving.

él statutorio

This won't be popular, but I think they should level the whole thing.

Honestly the place is falling apart and looks nothing like it did in 1916. Add a condition to the planning permission for the new development so they have to add in some sort of mueseum type thing with possibly some sort of reconstruction or a facade and it's all sorted.

I'm a big fan of preserving old historic buildings but in this case the building in question has been run down over the past 90 odd years.. It's not as if the building itself (last stand of rebels aside) is of any architectural value.

pedroeibar1

tac foley wrote: »

Ladies and Gentlemen - I share with you a national disgrace.

Texas has The Alamo, a place of sacrifice where their hero ancestors gave their lives so that the Great State could be born. It is, rightly, a national shrine.

Ireland, a country born out of blood and sacrifice, will have..........Moore Street Shopping Mall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AYioUyOSfNE

I really can't think of anything else to say.

tac

Tac,
What a piece of total BS. Before you think of anything else to say you might first research the topic and obtain a more accurate assessment. Look up ‘Carleton Cinema Development’ for starters.

That film – I watched just the first few minutes – is a piece of badly put together propaganda that is grossly inaccurate. Firstly, despite its resident population of cowboys, Moore St certainly is not the Irish equivalent of the Alamo. Secondly, what is at issue is ONE BUILDING - #16, Moore Street.
Thirdly, back in 1999 Dublin City councillors granted planning permission to build a very large shopping centre bounded by two of the capital’s main streets. Subsequently, in about 2002 they unanimously passed a motion to protect ‘a safe house’ used ONCE by the leaders of the 1916 Rising. The house itself (like all of Moore St.) is of absolutely no architectural merit, it is a typically bland four storey late 19c building. Because it has ‘protected’ status it is sacrosanct and the plans for the development include the preservation and integration of the house. Undeservedly so, there were far more buildings that merit saving because of their 1916 links.

Moore St. primarily was a street trader site; most of the native traders have left or died out. Because of many objections/appeals there has been more than a decade of delay and uncertainty. Short leases have been granted on some shops, others have been closed; Moore St and its surrounding area consequently is a dump, dirty, badly rundown and more like downtown Lagos or Kano than a town in Ireland. How anyone would buy food there is beyond me.

Some of the less daft protesters have produced this http://www.gaelicadventure.org/pdfs/h16.pdf but to their discredit they have not even done basic cleaning/maintenace on the building on which they have a lease!

I support heritage and have been active in several campaigns of merit. In this instance many of the objections & appeals were/are by fringe/nutty or misguided conservationists supported by a few independent politicians (all jumping onto the ‘1916’ bandwagon to get some PR). Because of that there is a large dirty hole for several blocks in the centre of Dublin; it will be years before anything happens to that site. Shame on them all!

A Disgrace

There's a lot more to heritage than architecture - there's such a thing as context and surroundings. One only has to look at the plethora of plaques attached to modern office blocks and rebuilds that calim 'such-and-such was born here' - you can't get a feel whatsoever for these places.

This area is very run down, but it is wildly evocative. The lanes are narrow, and you can really imagine the frenzied escape that happened there. You'd stuuggle to get that sense of the history if you were standing in the lingerie aisle of Debenhams.

I see no reason why the existing buildings and warehouses can't be retained, even as shops incorporating the shopping centre. Relay the cobbles (or tear up whatever tarmac that can be to reveal the exisiting ones) fill in the empty plots with modern interventions, but keep the sense of a streetscape. It has the potential to be a mini district in its own right, dotted with historical reference points and still be a viable shoppping area.

The 1916 house should also be retained fully, with the interior restored to its mid-war state (bullet holes, broken down walls, broken furniture)

tac foley

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Tac, What a piece of total BS.

Thank you, Sir, for your support and constructive comments.

Much appreciated.

tac

pedroeibar1

tac foley wrote: »

Thank you, Sir, for your support and constructive comments.

Much appreciated.

tac

I call it as I see it. Usually I have a good reason to do so.:)

pedroeibar1

A Disgrace wrote: »

There's a lot more to heritage than architecture - there's such a thing as context and surroundings. One only has to look at the plethora of plaques attached to modern office blocks and rebuilds that calim 'such-and-such was born here' - you can't get a feel whatsoever for these places.

Of course there is more to heritage than architecture; however, architecture is the most tangible part, that which we can see, feel and experience. Most (if not all) relevant buildings in Ireland have preservation orders on them. Moore Street has no architectural merit. In Ireland plaques mostly are on old buildings, very few are on modern ones and invariably relate to people, not historic events. Many of Ireland’s old buildings that were demolished were beyond their lifespan; several hundred others (structurally sound, built heritage) were torched by the colleagues of those you are supporting.

A Disgrace wrote: »

This area is very run down, but it is wildly evocative. The lanes are narrow, and you can really imagine the frenzied escape that happened there. You'd stuuggle to get that sense of the history if you were standing in the lingerie aisle of Debenhams.

Evocative of what? Poverty? Deprivation? There are a few lanes that have reeked for decades of human waste, the shops are tawdry, the place is a kip. The ‘context’ and surroundings of a 1916 Moore St can never be evoked again, it is like saying that the Somme, Ypres or wherever should be maintained ‘as was’ - a battle site. We are discussing a few houses in Moore Street that have been substantially altered and which - literally - had a few minutes of doubtful glory in their lifespans. They certainly do not now and never will rank among the great symbols of Irish history.

A Disgrace wrote: »

I see no reason why the existing buildings and warehouses can't be retained, even as shops incorporating the shopping centre. Relay the cobbles (or tear up whatever tarmac that can be to reveal the existing ones) fill in the empty plots with modern interventions, but keep the sense of a streetscape. It has the potential to be a mini district in its own right, dotted with historical reference points and still be a viable shoppping area. The 1916 house should also be retained fully, with the interior restored to its mid-war state (bullet holes, broken down walls, broken furniture

Why retain dross? Several of the Moore St houses have, as a result of objections/appeals and legal action have been protected and are being retained for use as a museum within the proposed development. (No doubt there will be more protests by some other faction over that, as the GPO is also wanted by some for use as a museum and by others as a new location for the Abbey.) Your suggestion of relaying the cobbles,

A Disgrace wrote: »

the interior restored to its mid-war state (bullet holes, broken down walls, broken furniture

well, that is so Disneyesque you would be more honest to describe what you really want is a theme park. Why not go the whole hog and have re-enactments of shoot-outs twice daily carried out by guys in slouch hats and replica Mausers?
This is 2013; the Carleton site borders one of the city’s two prime shopping streets and also what is (or arguably was) its main thoroughfare. The actions of a bunch of pseudo-historians/preservationists have caused this development to miss the economic boat. This is a stupid discussion; any redevelopment on the Carleton site is most unlikely to happen in decades. Dublin still has one of the highest retail unoccupancy rates allied to some of the highest rents in Europe. The situation is getting worse, not better. If you really care that much about the buildings get onto those who have the lease and suggest that they clean up what they have, remove the s#itty signage /tags and the cheap bunting. Until then it is hard to take any of the ‘protesters’ seriously.

A Disgrace

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Of course there is more to heritage than architecture; however, architecture is the most tangible part, that which we can see, feel and experience. Most (if not all) relevant buildings in Ireland have preservation orders on them. Moore Street has no architectural merit. In Ireland plaques mostly are on old buildings, very few are on modern ones and invariably relate to people, not historic events. Many of Ireland’s old buildings that were demolished were beyond their lifespan; several hundred others (structurally sound, built heritage) were torched by the colleagues of those you are supporting.

Evocative of what? Poverty? Deprivation? There are a few lanes that have reeked for decades of human waste, the shops are tawdry, the place is a kip. The ‘context’ and surroundings of a 1916 Moore St can never be evoked again, it is like saying that the Somme, Ypres or wherever should be maintained ‘as was’ - a battle site. We are discussing a few houses in Moore Street that have been substantially altered and which - literally - had a few minutes of doubtful glory in their lifespans. They certainly do not now and never will rank among the great symbols of Irish history.

Why retain dross? Several of the Moore St houses have, as a result of objections/appeals and legal action have been protected and are being retained for use as a museum within the proposed development. (No doubt there will be more protests by some other faction over that, as the GPO is also wanted by some for use as a museum and by others as a new location for the Abbey.) Your suggestion of relaying the cobbles, well, that is so Disneyesque you would be more honest to describe what you really want is a theme park. Why not go the whole hog and have re-enactments of shoot-outs twice daily carried out by guys in slouch hats and replica Mausers?
This is 2013; the Carleton site borders one of the city’s two prime shopping streets and also what is (or arguably was) its main thoroughfare. The actions of a bunch of pseudo-historians/preservationists have caused this development to miss the economic boat. This is a stupid discussion; any redevelopment on the Carleton site is most unlikely to happen in decades. Dublin still has one of the highest retail unoccupancy rates allied to some of the highest rents in Europe. The situation is getting worse, not better. If you really care that much about the buildings get onto those who have the lease and suggest that they clean up what they have, remove the s#itty signage /tags and the cheap bunting. Until then it is hard to take any of the ‘protesters’ seriously.

Jaypers, I was only making a suggestion!

I'm too busy to write a detailed reply now, but "torched by the colleagues of those you are supporting" needs an immediate response.

I am not a republican or anything of the sort. I would try and protect anything of value, heritage-wise, in this city - be it a a poets birthplace, a the site of an important scientific discovery or yes, even a 1916 related site. I'm about preserving history, not about making a political stance or supporting a cause. And if I thought this was just a bullish Sinn Fein vanity project, I'd be first to oppose it - but it isn't. It's a nationally important one because it has a huge impact on the built heritage of the whole area (I stick with my 'more than architecture' argument btw), AS WELL as being an important site of national identity. That's two reasons why it needs to be carefully thought out before anything is done with it

InTheTrees

A Disgrace wrote: »

I'm about preserving history, not about making a political stance or supporting a cause.

This.

It makes no sense to tear down the buildings Its a major part of the story. It doesnt matter what state its currently in.

Why not tear down the gpo and just keep one of the columns with the bullet holes?

mdebets

tac foley wrote: »

Ireland, a country born out of blood and sacrifice, will have..........Moore Street Shopping Mall.

But a shopping mall would be the ideal monument, to show the development of the Irish State from the Easter Rising to the Celtic Tiger. And all in one building.

wolfpawnat

Well we have a few choices.

- Let NAMA and a developer who is being investigated for being in the notorious "Anglo Golden Circle" go ahead with this project, costing the tax payer MILLIONS for a shopping center when so many places around Dublin are empty already.

- Let it continue into dilapidation and become an absolute health hazard and expect DCC to fix it, again costing the tax payer.

OR

-Let the "Save Moore Street Campaign" do what they have planned. Which is do up the houses as they were that week, fixing the structure of each as they go. Turn it into a museum and open it to the public for the great cost of........ nothing to the tax payer. Apparently they have an American philanthropist ready with the cash to do it without costing DCC or the taxpayer a penny! I'd say all they would request is a few unused cases from the other OPW museums to keep a few exhibits. The SMSC has the backing of ALL the signatories families and the families of all those executed for the Rising, meaning you can only imagine the fantastic history and artifacts they would loan the museum!!!

To me it's a no brainer, that area of the city needs a sprucing, it needs to attract tourists and it needs to cost the stretched taxpayer and council as little as possible!

Seanbass

finally some sense being spoken.

InTheTrees

mdebets wrote: »

But a shopping mall would be the ideal monument, to show the development of the Irish State from the Easter Rising to the Celtic Tiger. And all in one building.

I like it. A war zone on one end, with a shopping mall in the middle and then a boarded up ruin at the other end.

pedroeibar1

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Well we have a few choices.

- Let NAMA and a developer who is being investigated for being in the notorious "Anglo Golden Circle" go ahead with this project, costing the tax payer MILLIONS for a shopping center when so many places around Dublin are empty already.

- Let it continue into dilapidation and become an absolute health hazard and expect DCC to fix it, again costing the tax payer.

OR

-Let the "Save Moore Street Campaign" do what they have planned. Which is do up the houses as they were that week, fixing the structure of each as they go. Turn it into a museum and open it to the public for the great cost of........ nothing to the tax payer. Apparently they have an American philanthropist ready with the cash to do it without costing DCC or the taxpayer a penny! I'd say all they would request is a few unused cases from the other OPW museums to keep a few exhibits. The SMSC has the backing of ALL the signatories families and the families of all those executed for the Rising, meaning you can only imagine the fantastic history and artifacts they would loan the museum!!!

To me it's a no brainer, that area of the city needs a sprucing, it needs to attract tourists and it needs to cost the stretched taxpayer and council as little as possible!

That is not history - it is fairytale stuff and highly inaccurate. Typical emotive gombeen posting, throw in Anglo, Golden Circle, NAMA, the poor taxpayer and a few more red herrings to grab attention/support. Inaccurate stuff like that belongs in After Hours, not History. Do you guys not even do BASIC research?
For starters the site owners are Chartered Land, the ‘1916’ buildings are preserved, there is no issue about that and there is a process underway see the Irish Government’s News Service website at http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2013/03/public-consultation-period-for-planned-works-at-moore-st-national-monument-extended-to-24-april-2013/
‘American Philanthropists’ are ten a penny when talking to those who are on pet projects – the simple fact of the matter is that the guys behind this project have done very little because they are all blather and no money and despite lobbying the government i.e.the TAXPAYER (who thankfully told them to go away) have not yet raised sufficient to do anything of note. And that includes cleaning the facade of the building.
Maybe I’m too cynical, but the fact that some of them run a ‘heritage walking tours’ business in the area cannot go unnoticed.

Maudi

i have full faith in the city fat cats when it comes to the heritage of the city..after all look at the sterling work they did on wood quay.

wolfpawnat

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

That is not history - it is fairytale stuff and highly inaccurate. Typical emotive gombeen posting, throw in Anglo, Golden Circle, NAMA, the poor taxpayer and a few more red herrings to grab attention/support. Inaccurate stuff like that belongs in After Hours, not History. Do you guys not even do BASIC research?
For starters the site owners are Chartered Land, the ‘1916’ buildings are preserved, there is no issue about that and there is a process underway see the Irish Government’s News Service website at http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2013/03/public-consultation-period-for-planned-works-at-moore-st-national-monument-extended-to-24-april-2013/
‘American Philanthropists’ are ten a penny when talking to those who are on pet projects – the simple fact of the matter is that the guys behind this project have done very little because they are all blather and no money and despite lobbying the government i.e.the TAXPAYER (who thankfully told them to go away) have not yet raised sufficient to do anything of note. And that includes cleaning the facade of the building.
Maybe I’m too cynical, but the fact that some of them run a ‘heritage walking tours’ business in the area cannot go unnoticed.

To say a historic building is listed does not mean it is preserved.

12 million for 4 buildings to date is adequate enough. Which is what is ready to go currently and the promise of more if it required in the future. Or it would be if it was a project the government had an interest in. Even if all the SMSC did was stabilise the buildings, which they are requesting to do at present. It would be better, but I think we all know that rich business men/groups mean a hell of a lot more to the wealthy FG ministers than a republican part of our heritage.

The SMSC have had programmes on TG4 and have went to Leinster House with their plans including proof of financial backing but have yet to get permission to go ahead, because well, in Ireland, the rich will always look after their buddies! We see this time and time again. They have also went to Wood Quay with their proposals. They can go nowhere until NAMA relinquish the property from Chartered Lands.

There is no need for another shopping development in the city center. There are too many places already empty. How planning was ever permitted when there is a preservation order on those buildings I will never know. But my gut tells me of the money changing hands that is so synonymous with the previous FF government and of course their friends in FG would be glad to knock those building to the ground. I have little doubt the continued allowing of those buildings to become more and more derelict is so that people won't care what happens as long as they don't have to look at them, so all that need happen is a bit of rough handling and the lot are destroyed "accidentally" if that shopping development goes ahead but people will not be surprised with their previous state.

I am in no way connected with the SMSC group btw, just someone who researched this information and with a love of my country's amazing history.

And this is about the taxpayer and the money in Ireland in general. We cannot afford unnecessary vanity projects of dodgy men and companies when there is no money for such things!

Slideshowbob

Is this what the DDC vote is about this week?

Future 1916 Easter Rising Museum - Moore Street Dublin http://t.co/UKIbcVqik5

cgcsb

There is still bickering over this:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1022/654097-1916-moore-street/

I was under the impression that the decision had been made. Why is there more talk? surely construction needed to commence months ago in order to be complete in Q2 2016. There's only 18 months left.

Slideshowbob

'Twas deferred 2 wks back

http://www.herald.ie/news/1916-moore-street-monument-decision-deferred-30553307.html

A Disgrace

cgcsb wrote: »

There is still bickering over this:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1022/654097-1916-moore-street/

I was under the impression that the decision had been made. Why is there more talk? surely construction needed to commence months ago in order to be complete in Q2 2016. There's only 18 months left.

It's a farce - there's no way it'll be decided/built/opened in time for the Centenary.

cgcsb

A Disgrace wrote: »

It's a farce - there's no way it'll be decided/built/opened in time for the Centenary.

Agreed, the herald link above says all. Councillors don't want to be pressured into making a decision (despite there only being a matter of months remaining). I think it's safe to say that moore street will either be unchanged by 2016 or it will be a building site. Thanks to the bumbling Irish politician who wants to please everyone come election time by not having any firm opinions on anything.

cgcsb

so the land swap is out, what now? another 100 years of decay?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1103/656699-moore-street/

A Disgrace

cgcsb wrote: »

so the land swap is out, what now? another 100 years of decay?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1103/656699-moore-street/

TBH, I doubt any sort of conservation or museum was going to happen WITHOUT the shopping centre in the first place… and I pretty much doubt the shopping centre is going to happen anyway. Bits of the land will probably be sold off to development here and there, and we’ll be wondering about the 1916 buildings and the state of them, in another 10 years

Jesus.

That deal sounded very good to me yet they voted against it. Those relatives want their cake and eat it.

Don't they know the Country is cash-strapped?

CrabRevolution

The point has probably been made many times before. But there's a bit of a contradiction in the way that despite the rebels fighting and dying for a republic, freedom from aristocracy etc. these relatives' claim to authority is the fact they are descended from them.

jonniebgood1

Jesus. wrote: »

That deal sounded very good to me yet they voted against it. Those relatives want their cake and eat it.

Don't they know the Country is cash-strapped?

CrabRevolution wrote: »

The point has probably been made many times before. But there's a bit of a contradiction in the way that despite the rebels fighting and dying for a republic, freedom from aristocracy etc. these relatives' claim to authority is the fact they are descended from them.

The personalising of this by relatives is a bit bizarre to me. Whether the area is of historical significance or not has very little to do with anything I have seen the relatives say. Surely a more significant argument can be made for other 1916 sites.

Santa Cruz

CrabRevolution wrote: »

The point has probably been made many times before. But there's a bit of a contradiction in the way that despite the rebels fighting and dying for a republic, freedom from aristocracy etc. these relatives' claim to authority is the fact they are descended from them.

I agree with your comments on this self appointed relatives group. Schoolyard games such as "My grand da shot more Brits than your grand da"

cgcsb

It's truly bizzar. You have the relatives groups claiming they are being ignored in the planning of the 1916 celebrations. Their claim hinges on their belief that their contributions are of any greater significance than the average citizen merely by virtue of their lineage.

If they want to commemorate their grand parents there is nothing preventing them from doing so with their own finances. Let them buy the whole of Moore Street if they can. In the mean time society must move on and end the scourge of dereliction.

Chinasea

Dublin city Council must be rotten to the core. There are a load of Christmas stalls all trading along Henry Street selling fake perfumes, bags, hats etc.

How is this allowed?

Peregrinus

Chinasea wrote: »

Dublin city Council must be rotten to the core. There are a load of Christmas stalls all trading along Henry Street selling fake perfumes, bags, hats etc.

How is this allowed?

Hey, there has to be somewhere you can go if you want fake perfumes, bags and hats.

Atlantic Dawn

Chinasea wrote: »

Dublin city Council must be rotten to the core. There are a load of Christmas stalls all trading along Henry Street selling fake perfumes, bags, hats etc.

How is this allowed?

There doesn't appear to be any trading standards type people in Ireland, it's basically a free for all.

Peregrinus

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

There doesn't appear to be any trading standards type people in Ireland, it's basically a free for all.

Trading standards aren't concerned with intellectual property protection. If the perfume you are selling is corrosive or toxic, tradings standards car; if it's not genuine Chanel No. 5, not so much. If the owners of the Chanel No. 5 branding can't be arsed to defend their brand, why should the taxpayer pay to defend it for them?

cgcsb

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

There doesn't appear to be any trading standards type people in Ireland, it's basically a free for all.

I'd imagine the issue is copyright infringement rather than standards, no?
Lett Coco Chanel sue Mary the casual trader if it wants.

pedroeibar1

Peregrinus wrote: »

If the owners of the Chanel No. 5 branding can't be arsed to defend their brand, why should the taxpayer pay to defend it for them?

They do defend the brand and spend large amounts in doing so in places where the effort is worthwhile. The perfume is so fake/bad it's not worth the effort, the handbags are the main target. The Gardai are not much bothered, but the contraband cops in Italy and the 'fisc' in France give it priority. Try to pass through Customs in CDG with a fake Chanel bag and it will be confiscated and its contents unceremoniously dumped onto a table - if lucky you will be given a plastic bag to remove the junk. The worst copies come from North Africa, the best from North Korea.

cgcsb

France has an interest in this because of the scale of their fashion industry. Ireland does not.
When it comes to the law, Ireland is effectively the land of non-enforcement. We don't really have a police force in the pro-active sense, we have a purely reactive set of security guards who spend the majority of time on the national roads checking tax discs or sat in offices falsifying things.

In this country you can openly run a puppy farm and sell on the internet, quite transparently, and never expect any consequences. You can buy or sell hard drugs in broad daylight in the centre of the Capital's mainstreet, nothing will hapen to you. You can even commit acts of violence and theft with little fear of consequences. You can park a car more/less anywhere you like if you turn on your hazards or if it's time for mass. you can drive in bus lanes whenever you like if you own an Audi or even if you don't but think you are a VIP, if you are wealthy enough you can defraud the state of millions, billions even. You can operate illegal brothels at your discretion. You can overstay your visa, no problem. The list goes on and on. The notion that there is spare capacity within law enforcement in this country to protect the revenue of coco chanel is laughable.

BalcombeSt4

tac foley wrote: »

Ladies and Gentlemen - I share with you a national disgrace.

Texas has The Alamo, a place of sacrifice where their hero ancestors gave their lives so that the Great State could be born. It is, rightly, a national shrine.

Ireland, a country born out of blood and sacrifice, will have..........Moore Street Shopping Mall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AYioUyOSfNE

I really can't think of anything else to say.

tac

I agree, but isn't the GPO more traditionally recognized as the spirtual location of the Rising instead of Moore Street?
At least the GPO looks nice.

Ascendant

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

I agree, but isn't the GPO more traditionally recognized as the spirtual location of the Rising instead of Moore Street?
At least the GPO looks nice.

And easier for the tourists to spot.