Provisional Ball Query

uberwolf

just thumbing the rule book there, as one does.

In a recent round I played my first tee shot into a corner where an OB, Water hazard and an area of rough collide. Played my provisional (badly) and proceeded to look for the original unsure which of the three it might have been in.

The OB area is in plain sight, the rough area not massive and after a while searching the original was not found. I had made an absolute bags of my provisional and was actually lying 6 by the time we reached the spot to look in.

I believed that I had to keep playing my provisional. On rereading the rules I'm led to understand that I would have been entitled to consider my options having failed to locate the first ball. I.e. if I and the rest of the fourball were happy that the only place the original could have ultimately have ended up was the water then I could at that point in time have determined whether I wanted to take a drop or replay my shot? Presumably replaying the shot would have left me playing my provisional? but given how that had gone I could have abandoned it and taken a drop at my point of entry?

GreeBo

I wouldnt agree that its " beyond reasonable doubt" that the ball is in the hazard in this scenario, it could be plugged in the rough or OB.
If you believed that it was in the Hazard then you cannot play a provo and so your second ball was the ball in play as soon as it was hit.

All that in mind, assuming it was in the hazard (say you met someone who then told you oh I saw that go in) then you have the following options and the provo is no longer one of them, once you determine the original is in the hazard their effectively is no provo.

You can replay (note again that provo doesnt count as a replay, you now have to go back to the tee)
Or you can take the usual water hazard options (depending on it being red or yellow staked)
- drop at point of entry as far back as you want in line with the flag
- 2 club lengths from the point of entry (for lateral/red stakes)

SnowDrifts

You would have had to continue with your provisional. You said "...proceeded to look for the original unsure which of the three it might have been in." but in order to obtain relief under 26-1, you need "knowledge or virtual certainty" and since you didn't have that, you proceed to play your provisional ball under penalty of stroke and distance. (27-1)

Edit* Forgot to add that because of the lack of "knowledge or virtual certainty" in your case, the only way you could have gained relief from 26-1 after playing a provisional was to find your first ball inside the hazard. If you did find it, your provisional is now no longer in play and you could proceed under normal 26-1 relief options including going back to where you played your first shot from.

Almaviva

No, no, no uberwolf.

But plenty of golfers make this mistake week in week out (many of them probably while bitching about Tiger's recent jousting with the dropping rules).

The rule means that even if you dont see the ball enter the water, but you and your playing partners agree it must have gone in, then you can take a drop. Decision made where you played the shot.
If you decide you are going to go up and have a look for it outside the water, then by definition you are recognising that maybe its not in the water. So no drop unless you do indeed find it in the water. And the provisional is in play.

Senna

If the ball goes into a very dense area of gorse/long grass that's out of site of the tee (no chance of even know area it went in) but still in play, if I was sure that ball wont be found, can I play my third off the tee and just continue on??

Almaviva

Senna wrote: »

If the ball goes into a very dense area of gorse/long grass that's out of site of the tee (no chance of even know area it went in) but still in play, if I was sure that ball wont be found, can I play my third off the tee and just continue on??

Yes. Just dont make the mistake of calling it a provisional ball though - one of your playing partners might stroll through the gorse and find your ball - and you would then have to play it! But if you dont call the second ball a provisional, you dont have to play the first one - that a find for him.

GreeBo

Senna wrote: »

If the ball goes into a very dense area of gorse/long grass that's out of site of the tee (no chance of even know area it went in) but still in play, if I was sure that ball wont be found, can I play my third off the tee and just continue on??

well you cant be sure it wont be found, but note that you can declare a ball unplayable at any time (bar it being in a hazard) and you are the sole judge of it being playable.

Your options are to replay the shot (you can replay any shot you want), play a provisional, do nothing or look for the ball and then go back and replay the shot.
(Im assuming here that you dont find it, if you do you have the usual unplayable options assuming its in bounds and not in a water hazard)
Note that even if you play a provo, anyone else can go look for the original and if they find it your provisional is no longer in play. (of course you can make your provo in play by hitting it from a point at or beyond where you can reasonable expect the original ball to be)

DuckSlice

if you cant be sure its in the hazard, then you basically have to take a lost ball which is, like Snowdrifts said, rule 27-1, and go back to the tee, but seen as you already played a provisional then that is in play!!! you would have to find the ball in the hazard or seen a splash or seen it roll in to be able to take a drop under Rule 26-1.

GreeBo

a splash is not necesarily enough "proof"
I've bounced balls into and out of water hazards before.

DuckSlice

we all have, but if there is a splash off a drive then it is unlikely it is gonna bounce over the water! unlikely anything other than a low stinger or bladed shot will skim across the water!

uberwolf

gotya. I didn't know that the provisional would be out of play once the ball had been identified in the hazard.

diarmuid05

i had a similar situation to this a few weeks ago.
Partner downed tee shot into a "dry" hazard about 40 yards ahead of the tee where usually players can play out of.
He then proceeded to play a provisional ball. (Not sure why)
We then walked up to the hazard fully expecting to find the ball but were unable to

At that point, was he entitled to take a drop as we were certain it was in the hazard or was his provisional then in play?

I think he shouldn't have played the provisional at all and taken a drop when he didn't find the ball,
but in the end he abandoned the provisional and took a penalty drop.

Anyone able to clarify?

GreeBo

if you hit a ball into a water hazard and then play another ball that second ball is in play, irrespective of what you declare it to be on the tee.

there is no provisional for a ball in a water hazard.

GreeBo

etxp wrote: »

we all have, but if there is a splash off a drive then it is unlikely it is gonna bounce over the water! unlikely anything other than a low stinger or bladed shot will skim across the water!

who's to say it's your splash?
could be anything, another ball, a bird, etc etc.

we have all hit shots that we are sure hit the tree (or didn't) only to find the ball 50 yards further up the fairway (or back!)

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

who's to say it's your splash?
could be anything, another ball, a bird, etc etc.

we have all hit shots that we are sure hit the tree (or didn't) only to find the ball 50 yards further up the fairway (or back!)

He is to say if it was his splash or not

I'd imagine he'd only do so, once he's followed the ball flight, seen a splash, confirmed with partners if needed and they've all then gone through extensive check list of other things it could be
Bird:Nope
Plane:Nope
Superman:Nope

And then declared it virtually certain the ball is in the hazard.

Miley Byrne

GreeBo wrote: »

who's to say it's your splash?
could be anything, another ball, a bird, etc etc.

we have all hit shots that we are sure hit the tree (or didn't) only to find the ball 50 yards further up the fairway (or back!)

Or it could be a bird sh1tting on the lake, or some delinquent throwing a stone whenever someone tees off, or a fish jumping

GreeBo

ajcurry123 wrote: »

He is to say if it was his splash or not

I'd imagine he'd only do so, once he's followed the ball flight, seen a splash, confirmed with partners if needed and they've all then gone through extensive check list of other things it could be
Bird:Nope
Plane:Nope
Superman:Nope

And then declared it virtually certain the ball is in the hazard.

tbf the rules specifically say that seeing a splash is not always enough proof of a ball being in a hazard.
You cant necessarily just decide that that splash was yours if you dont see the ball hitting the water, obviously the only way you can be 100% sure its your splash is if you witness the ball hit the water, in which case the splash is a moot point.

26-1/1
When a ball has been struck towards a water hazard and cannot be found, a player may not assume that his ball is in the water hazard simply because there is a possibility that the ball may be in the water hazard. In order to proceed under Rule 26-1, it must be “known or virtually certain” that the ball is in the water hazard. In the absence of “knowledge or virtual certainty” that it lies in a water hazard, a ball that cannot be found must be considered lost somewhere other than in a water hazard and the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.
When a player’s ball cannot be found, “knowledge” may be gained that his ball is in a water hazard in a number of ways. The player or his caddie or other members of his match or group may actually observe the ball disappear into the water hazard. Evidence provided by other reliable witnesses may also establish that the ball is in the water hazard. Such evidence could come from a referee, an observer, spectators or other outside agencies. It is important that all readily accessible information be considered because, for example, the mere fact that a ball has splashed in a water hazard would not always provide “knowledge” that the ball is in the water hazard, as there are instances when a ball may skip out of, and come to rest outside, the hazard.
In the absence of “knowledge” that the ball is in the water hazard, Rule 26-1 requires there to be “virtual certainty” that the player’s ball is in the water hazard in order to proceed under this Rule. Unlike “knowledge,” “virtual certainty” implies some small degree of doubt about the actual location of a ball that has not been found. However, “virtual certainty” also means that, although the ball has not been found, when all readily available information is considered, the conclusion that there is nowhere that the ball could be except in the water hazard would be justified.
In determining whether “virtual certainty” exists, some of the relevant factors in the area of the water hazard to be considered include topography, turf conditions, grass heights, visibility, weather conditions and the proximity of trees, bushes and abnormal ground conditions.
The same principles would apply for a ball that may have been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1) or a ball that has not been found and may be in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c). (Revised)

note particularly the second highlighted section, just becuase you cant find it doesnt mean it must be in the hazard if there is rough, trees, or other topography or even outside agency that may be responsible for the ball being found, other than the water hazard itself.

When trying to determine this its often useful to put yourself in an opponents shoes. If you were in a match against yourself, would you happily accept the ball must be in the hazard, considering you are 1 down and on the 18th.
If not then...

Ilik Urgee

So if I don't declare a ball a provisional before I hit it, it automatically deems my first ball unplayable. Or do I need to declare the first one unplayable?

GreeBo

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

So if I don't declare a ball a provisional before I hit it, it automatically deems my first ball unplayable. Or do I need to declare the first one unplayable?

If you dont declare another ball to be a provisional you have automatically elected to replay your previous shot under stroke and distance penalty, not necessarily unplayable.

Otherwise you have two balls in play and the option to choose between the two, thats never an option under the rules of golf.

DuckSlice

so going by the second highlighted section, u tee off, follow the ball flight, see a splash, u walk up cant find your ball anywhere, the hazard is too deep to see the anything. so therefore the ball has to be in the hazard! if there is a splash its good enough for me, especially if its a drive, which is what the OP was talking about!

Ilik Urgee

GreeBo wrote: »

If you dont declare another ball to be a provisional you have automatically elected to replay your previous shot under stroke and distance penalty, not necessarily unplayable.

Otherwise you have two balls in play and the option to choose between the two, thats never an option under the rules of golf.

That's why I ask-yesterday I pulled a shot on a par 3 to find very heavy rough,declared and played a provisional and truly didn't want to find my first ball.
Found it and played it for bogey but it was a very low percentage make!

GreeBo

etxp wrote: »

so going by the second highlighted section, u tee off, follow the ball flight, see a splash, u walk up cant find your ball anywhere, the hazard is too deep to see the anything. so therefore the ball has to be in the hazard! if there is a splash its good enough for me, especially if its a drive, which is what the OP was talking about!

If I was playing you in a match then, depending on the surroundings it wouldnt be good enough for me.
It doesnt always *have* to be in the hazard just because you cant find it outside the hazard. It could be in a bush, plugged in the rough, etc, etc.

The fact that you dont get penalised for distance if its in the hazard versus do if its not is what makes it so important to determine where the ball is. There is obviously a huge difference between going back to the tee and taking 2 clublengths from the entry point.

Obviously if you carve it off into a lake its fair enough, but if your ball goes through trees or bushes before the hazard and you see a splash I wouldnt necessarily call that "known or virtually certain" at all.

GreeBo

Ilik Urgee wrote: »

That's why I ask-yesterday I pulled a shot on a par 3 to find very heavy rough,declared and played a provisional and truly didn't want to find my first ball.
Found it and played it for bogey but it was a very low percentage make!

Yep, so if you dont want to find it, dont declare your second ball as a provo.
If you do, an opponent can go look for your ball, find it buried in a tree and you are forced to play it, even though your provo is sitting beside the cup in 3!

PARlance

etxp wrote: »

so going by the second highlighted section, u tee off, follow the ball flight, see a splash, u walk up cant find your ball anywhere, the hazard is too deep to see the anything. so therefore the ball has to be in the hazard! if there is a splash its good enough for me, especially if its a drive, which is what the OP was talking about!

GreeBo wrote: »

If I was playing you in a match then, depending on the surroundings it wouldnt be good enough for me.
It doesnt always *have* to be in the hazard just because you cant find it outside the hazard. It could be in a bush, plugged in the rough, etc, etc.

The fact that you dont get penalised for distance if its in the hazard versus do if its not is what makes it so important to determine where the ball is. There is obviously a huge difference between going back to the tee and taking 2 clublengths from the entry point.

Obviously if you carve it off into a lake its fair enough, but if your ball goes through trees or bushes before the hazard and you see a splash I wouldnt necessarily call that "known or virtually certain" at all.

Greebo, what's you understanding of someone being able to "follow the ball flight"

I don't know many that can follow it through trees thus I am assuming the person in the scenario holds no superpowers.

The scenario Extp has presented above is cut and dry, you have carved this debate off into the lake with the introduction of situations that didn't exist.

You're right in what you say, it's just that it wasn't in the equation.

GreeBo

ajcurry123 wrote: »

Greebo, what's you understanding of someone being able to "follow the ball flight"

I don't know many that can follow it through trees thus I am assuming the person in the scenario holds no superpowers.

The scenario Extp has presented above is cut and dry, you have carved this debate off into the lake with the introduction of situations that didn't exist.

You're right in what you say, it's just that it wasn't in the equation.

Well since neither of us were there I cant speculate the equation, for clarity I'm endeavoring to explain the rule in full, lest someone (not necessarily the OP) pick the wrong interpretation, thats typically how you get people playing from the wrong rules, they see some specific interpretation and apply that incorrectly.

My point is that a splash on its own isnt necessarily enough to say, for rules purposes, that the ball is in the water hazard.

You can follow the ball flight (as opposed to not seeing where the ball went at all but hearing/seeing a splash) as far as possible, that might not necessarily mean you see it enter the water. Most rivers, lakes and water hazards in general are below the level of the ground and are often surrounded by rough, shrubbery, trees, etc so its often not possible to see a poorly struck shot enter the water, they might not clearly carry the hazard line and splash nicely in the middle of it.

george67

an example is when playing a par 3 over water and your ball is on the edge and may or may not be playable you cannot play another ball and call it a provo, if you play a "provo" it actually deems the first ball lost. Unless there is a local rule to allow you to play a second ball on that hole

GreeBo

george67 wrote: »

an example is when playing a par 3 over water and your ball is on the edge and may or may not be playable you cannot play another ball and call it a provo, if you play a "provo" it actually deems the first ball lost. Unless there is a local rule to allow you to play a second ball on that hole

A provo is where the previous ball *may* be lost outside of a hazard.
It doesnt impact the status of the original ball.

What do you mean by "on the edge"?
Its either in the hazard (across the hazard line) or not, its playability is entirely subjective to the player, you cant hit a provo because your first ball might be unplayable, only lost.

george67

Playable but still in the hazard but not visable from the Tee.

My point is that you have to go and check the status of the ball before hitting a second.

Where some players might be inclined to play what they "think" is a provo just in case the first is unplayable.

GreeBo

george67 wrote: »

Playable but still in the hazard but not visable from the Tee.

My point is that you have to go and check the status of the ball before hitting a second.

Where some players might be inclined to play what they "think" is a provo just in case the first is unplayable.

Yep, if you think it might be in the hazard then you cant play a provo.

Problems typically arise because its quite often the case that hazards are surrounded by crap where you could still lose your ball but it not in the hazard!

Its a complicated one sometimes, because even if you do go and look what do you do when you dont find it...barring any third party knowledge you should normally be able to ascertain the status of the ball from the tee.

Things get even more exciting when you have situations where a ball can enter a hazard but then flow OOB before you get to it....