Good/Interesting development on tubeless front

Harrybelafonte

After getting the Ultegra tubless wheels I've kept my eye on any bargains on the tubeless tyres. Nothing has changed for ages with Hutchinson, expensive Hutchinson being the only choices, but Schwalbe seem to be slowly releasing the Ultremo ZX tubeless, best of all as a two tyre plus accessories kit for cheaper than the Hutchinsons.

Bike24 don't have them in yet, Jedi Sports may have them at a slightly higher price, but I'm not sure if they have stock yet either. Here's the Bike24 link for anyone interested. I'll be forking out for them anyway:

http://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;product=56627;menu=1000,4,22,35

Lumen

It's good to see development, but at 295g for an Ultremo I don't really see the point.

Conventional Ultremo ZX+Race 28 Light=263g.

Do they hold air better than a conventional setup?

Ky Abu

In terms of regular Tyres, what is good value at the moment? Either on CRC, Wiggle or wherever online. Have Vittoria Rubino tyres and have found them to be poor enough, have started to perish on the outsides

Unregistered.

Lumen wrote: »

It's good to see development, but at 295g for an Ultremo I don't really see the point.

Conventional Ultremo ZX+Race 28 Light=263g.

Do they hold air better than a conventional setup?

Moot point if you're using ordinary tubes (~100g) instead of the Race Light tubes.

Lumen

Ky Abu wrote: »

In terms of regular Tyres, what is good value at the moment? Either on CRC, Wiggle or wherever online. Have Vittoria Rubino tyres and have found them to be poor enough, have started to perish on the outsides

Continental Grand Prix Folding Tire 2012, €14.99 each
http://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;navigation=1;product=3784;page=1;menu=1000,4,22,35;mid=0;pgc=0;orderby=2

Harrybelafonte

Lumen wrote: »

It's good to see development, but at 295g for an Ultremo I don't really see the point.

Conventional Ultremo ZX+Race 28 Light=263g.

Do they hold air better than a conventional setup?

I don't know how much difference the tube makes weightwise?

Apparently the same as a clincher with the benefit of the sealant which will clog up smaller cuts and hinder defaltion. They can also be run at lower psi as no risk of snakebites.

Review on Bike Radar here:

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/components/tyres/road/product/review-schwalbe-ultremo-zx-tubeless-tyre-13-47232

Lumen

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I don't know how much difference the tube makes weightwise?

Apparently the same as a clincher with the benefit of the sealant which will clog up smaller cuts and hinder defaltion. They can also be run at lower psi as no risk of snakebites.

Review on Bike Radar here:

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/category/components/tyres/road/product/review-schwalbe-ultremo-zx-tubeless-tyre-13-47232

OK, so "Daily air loss was no greater than from a clincher tyre".

It's not clear whether the 30ml sealant is added when you fit them or when you get a puncture, and whether the reduced rolling resistance is with or without sealant.

If you add the sealant when fitting that's going to add a further 30g ish per tyre.

I think Tunney posted previously that sealant increases rolling resistance of conventional tyres.

Not sure why you'd want to run lower pressures. Increases risk of rim damage when hitting potholes.

Unregistered.

Lumen wrote: »

Not sure why you'd want to run lower pressures. Increases risk of rim damage when hitting potholes.

Comfort?

Ky Abu

Lumen wrote: »

Continental Grand Prix Folding Tire 2012, €14.99 each
http://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;navigation=1;product=3784;page=1;menu=1000,4,22,35;mid=0;pgc=0;orderby=2

~Might move this to a new thread instead.

kumate_champ07

some more tubeless tyres here http://www.alexscycle.com/tyres-tires/tubeless/road-en/

this one is 240g http://www.alexscycle.com/tyres-tires/tubeless/road-en/irc-formula-pro-tubeless-light-70023c.html

velomelo

Lumen wrote: »

Continental Grand Prix Folding Tire 2012, €14.99 each
http://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;navigation=1;product=3784;page=1;menu=1000,4,22,35;mid=0;pgc=0;orderby=2

Plus 10€ shipping and handling on any orders from bike24.

doozerie

I've never used tubeless tyres so any information I have on them is simply from reading around, and from that my understanding is that tubeless offers significant advantages for off-road riding where lower pressures are very beneficial for grip and comfort. And apparently off-road tubeless options are often lighter too. Plus the lower risk of punctures is a big advantage, given the high risk of snakebite punctures off-road, but it's only a reduced risk as tubeless tyres do puncture too. But if you use sealant (recommended by some tyre manufacturers, recommended *against* by others) and it's not able to seal the puncture, then it seems the most reliable option is to install a regular tube unit you get home to apply a more permanent fix - and I gather that installing a tube in a tyre with sealant is messy.

Purely on paper I'm not sure that tubeless offers much, if any, advantage for road bikes, not from my perspective anyway. It doesn't eliminate the risk of punctures, there may be a weight penalty, it's potentially messy if using sealant, it limits your choice of rims and tyres, that limited choice may mean greater expense, etc. And I'm not convinced that the ability to run at lower pressure on a road bike is a significant advantage either - if you are convinced by the argument that lower pressure equals better performance (within reason) then you'll already run your regular tyres and tubes at a pressure that would upset those that believe higher pressure is better, so tubeless might not give you any improvement in that respect.

Personally I like the "middle ground" option of using latex tubes inside my regular clincher tyres. They are comfortable (in so far as I can perceive it at least, which is obviously very subjective), they roll well (also subjective), they are less prone to pinch punctures than butyl tubes, and they are light. You have to add air to them regularly as they lose a substantial amount of air overnight but I gather that you typically have to do that with tubeless too. Latex tubes will also work with any regular (narrow) clincher rim, although I've not seen any 700C latex tubes that go wider than 23mm.

I like the idea of tubeless but in practice it seems like more hassle and expense than it is worth for road bikes, but I'd be curious to hear from people that use it and like it.

kumate_champ07

something I only noticed recently, my 22.5mm wide clincher rims measure 23.5mm wide when tyre is inflated, the rim sidewalls change so that they arent parallel. this is normal with all clincher rims as the internal pressure is basically ripping the rim apart, it also causes the spoke tension to drop when the tyre is inflated. a tubular rim doesnt act like this at all. not only is it lighter but its also stronger.


whenever you see diagrams with the new models of 23mm wide rims with 23mm tyres fitted they dont show the angled sidewalls and the fact that the rim width changes. this would change aerodynamics slightly


Id like to see more development with tubular tyre to rim interface, similar to what Tuffo do, but for use with tubular rims, not a hybrid clincher/tub tyre.

more OTT but apparently using sapim cx ray spokes instead of sapim laser in a front wheel only saves 1watt at around 40km/h


latex imo definetly 'feels' faster, it has to be decreased rolling resistance, I dont think Im imagining it. clincher tyres can give lower rolling resistance than tubulars

petethedrummer

The velocast boys were discussing this very issue during the second half of this podcast.

I have been half tempted to try tubeless for a while now. It's just the lack of tyre choice more than the wheel choice has been putting me off. I'd be more than happy to run with Shimano 6700 Tubeless wheels so thats not a problem for me. And you can get converter kits from Stans but I dunno how good they'd be.

I'd really like a nice big 28mm tubeless tyre on my commuter. 25mm is the biggest for a road bike that I can see. The Velocast lads are suggesting that tubeless might become a hit in cyclocross so I maybe I'll get my big tyre soon.

CheGuedara

Currently riding on a set of Ultremo tubelesss after spending the last number of years riding alternately on tubeless Hutchinson Fusion 3's or common or garden Ultremos.

They are definitely as step above the Hutchinsons (which are fine in their own right but feel harsher in comparison, something probably to do with the more supple construction of the Ultremos), are very comfortable (riding at 110psi F&R) and feel like they are faster than the standard Ultremos on all road surfaces.

The added 30ml of sealant doesn't feel like it makes a difference in terms of weight or rolling resistance either. I did notice they are markedly easier to fit than the Hutchinsons which could be an epic PITA to fit, they inflate very easily (using a standard track pump) and air loss is indeed about the same as a standard clincher. Don't have enough milage on them to comment on their longevity but everything looks fine so far.

Gonna be my 'go to' tyre for the foreseeable...

petethedrummer

doozerie wrote: »

But if you use sealant (recommended by some tyre manufacturers, recommended *against* by others)

I read that Shimano won't warranty a wheel used with sealant, but I'd stick it in anyway. What can go wrong?

Harrybelafonte

CheGuedara wrote: »

Currently riding on a set of Ultremo tubelesss after spending the last number of years riding alternately on tubeless Hutchinson Fusion 3's or common or garden Ultremos.

They are definitely as step above the Hutchinsons (which are fine in their own right but feel harsher in comparison, something probably to do with the more supple construction of the Ultremos), are very comfortable (riding at 110psi F&R) and feel like they are faster than the standard Ultremos on all road surfaces.

The added 30ml of sealant doesn't feel like it makes a difference in terms of weight or rolling resistance either. I did notice they are markedly easier to fit than the Hutchinsons which could be an epic PITA to fit, they inflate very easily (using a standard track pump) and air loss is indeed about the same as a standard clincher. Don't have enough milage on them to comment on their longevity but everything looks fine so far.

Gonna be my 'go to' tyre for the foreseeable...

Can I ask where you got yours?

Seaneh

velomelo wrote: »

Plus 10€ shipping and handling on any orders from bike24.

€6 with DHL isnteadl of DPD.

CheGuedara

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Can I ask where you got yours?

Picked them up from Jedi Sports (was ordering a few other bits from them that I was making a saving on so didn't mind that they're a little more expensive)

doozerie

petethedrummer wrote:

I read that Shimano won't warranty a wheel used with sealant, but I'd stick it in anyway. What can go wrong?

Some of the concern is possibly that some sealants may damage the tyre, increasing the risk of a tyre blowing off the rim. I've read of tyres essentially "rotting" from the inside and this being blamed on the sealant used. The refusal to warranty a wheel may be due to a perceived increased risk of damage to the wheel resulting from failure of the tyre, maybe. Or maybe the rim tape could be damaged by the sealant, in which case sealant may get at the spoke nipples and foul them (possibly even neutralising any glues used on the nipples), one possible outcome being that re-truing of the wheel becomes problematic.

I'm not sure how serious a risk (some) sealant really poses these days but a few years back Hutchinson recommended that only their own branded sealant be used while Kenda recommended that no fluid based sealant be used at all. If Shimano recommend against it even now then presumably concerns remain, though whether the concerns are valid or just motivated by fear of litigation is another matter entirely.

Harrybelafonte

Have heard the issue with sealant is that it should be changed every so often rather than just left indefinitely in the tyre which causes the problem.

petethedrummer

doozerie wrote: »

If Shimano recommend against it even now then presumably concerns remain, though whether the concerns are valid or just motivated by fear of litigation is another matter entirely.

I just read it on another forum, so I can't be sure if it's a definite policy.

No mention of sealant here, positive or negative.

FOUND IT! Though it's not a definitive statement.

• We do not recommend that you use general-purpose alkaline puncture repair agents, as they may cause the rims to corrode and allow air leaks to occur.

http://bike.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/Wheel/ROAD/SI_4DS0B_001/SI-4DS0B-003-ENG_v1_m56577569830667525.pdf

Also mentions it here.


I'd still put sealant in anyway.

petethedrummer

petethedrummer wrote: »

I'd still put sealant in anyway.

Or would I?
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/stans-damage-my-aluminum-rims-271614.html