Advice on Insulation

D_MM

Hi,

Not 100% sure that this is the right forum for this post, so apologies in advance if not. It looks the most appropriate.

Quick background:

Myself and my wife & todller moved house around the middle of last year, to a family-sized house we bought.

We anticipated having to do a little fixing up on the house when we moved in - the previous owners hadn't changed from builders' paint in the ten years the house was built for example! Our survey said there were a few minor things to resolve (settlement cracks in plasterboard, old style insulation in the attic), but no sign of any structural problems or subsidence or anything similarly serious.

We've been in the house for the guts of a year now and have been chipping away at painting and some bits and pieces. Although we're very happy in general, it's become more obvious that the standard of workmanship when the house was built wasn't up to scratch. Again, nothing serious but lots of niggly things along the lines of the plasterboard cracks, some wood flooring not being well finished, some badly-lain floor tiles in the kitchen... etc.

One of the things next on the list is looking at improving insulation.

It's a bigger house than we're used to and is pricier to heat (so not sure how much we're overpaying because of lost heat.) I anticipate once we get into looking at the insulation - given the issues we've hit in general - there'll have been some substandard work done when the house was built. In the kitchen there is some 'ghosting' on the external walls (http://www.mosbybuildingarts.com/services/question.php/black-streaks-on-walls-ceilings-319) which from the internet seems to be most likely to be an insulation problem, so I think there's definitely work to be done.

Insulation seems to be one of those things that you can always do better and that can cost a lot of money. I don't want to get a salesman in to tell me I can spend ten grand on making the place airtight. Similarly, I imagine a surveyor would tend to give you a worst case scenario to cover themselves.

So, what I'm looking for advice on is the type of help I need to get in here. I'd like someone reliable and impartial that will give me the best view of what the minimal investment necessary is to reach an acceptable energy state for the house. Ideally, someone whose fees would be linked to the improvement in energy rating (or something), rather than just being incentivised to recommend the largest possible amount of work. Would I be as well getting a builder in to fix up a bunch of the snaggy stuff as well as the insulation?

Sorry for the long post, thought the detail might help. Any recommendations or assistance very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Outkast_IRE

Ok to the last question, I personally wouldnt reccomend getting a builder in to do the insulation and the snaggy stuff.

Get someone independant to make up a plan and then leave the builder price it to the required specification.
Most builders i have come across in this situation just like throwing on internal insulation with plasterboard, and filling the attic with whatever is cheapest.


Do you know what the make up of the walls is ?
Is it a timber frame home, or cavity walls or cavity block ? its unlikely to be cavity block if its only 10 years old.

D_MM

Thanks Outkast_IRE for your response. Had the same concern about getting a builder in - a 'one size fits all' fix that might not be the best option.

The external walls comprise hollow cavity block construction, which are drylined internally, says the survey report.

StillWaters

Id say your better off posting in the construction forum tbh.

Outkast_IRE

D_MM wrote: »

Thanks Outkast_IRE for your response. Had the same concern about getting a builder in - a 'one size fits all' fix that might not be the best option.

The external walls comprise hollow cavity block construction, which are drylined internally, says the survey report.

Drylined Internally already, theres no chance you know what thickness of drylining there is ?

How deep is the insulation in the attic ?
Are the windows old double glazed? modern double glazed etc ?

D_MM

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Drylined Internally already, theres no chance you know what thickness of drylining there is ?

How deep is the insulation in the attic ?
Are the windows old double glazed? modern double glazed etc ?

I don't know the thickness of the dry lining, I'm sorry.

The attic insulation is 150ml fibreglass quilt - surveyor notes that this would have been standard when constructed but is no longer. Easy access to the roof void is very limited, though, so will be a job to change.

MicktheMan

D_MM wrote: »

Insulation seems to be one of those things that you can always do better and that can cost a lot of money. I don't want to get a salesman in to tell me I can spend ten grand on making the place airtight. Similarly, I imagine a surveyor would tend to give you a worst case scenario to cover themselves.

I find that a lot of money is wasted on insulation upgrades which are not appropriate or effective because a proper investigation into the major heat loss mechanisms wasn't done. This is further driven by govt grants and insulation experts (aka salemen) jumping on the bandwagon over the last half dozen years. You wouldn't agree to have an operation without a full suite of tests first to confirm that the operation is needed. Same goes for a house.

Many houses in Ireland are adequately insulated for the relatively mild Irish climate but lack any airtightness measures resulting in a draughty house and high energy bills. It is mistakenly thought that more insulation will address this where in fact it will have little, if any, effect.

My advice is to know where and how your house is losing it's heat first before spending on any insulation improvements by having a heat loss survey done by an experienced and independent company.

Outkast_IRE

D_MM wrote: »

I don't know the thickness of the dry lining, I'm sorry.

The attic insulation is 150ml fibreglass quilt - surveyor notes that this would have been standard when constructed but is no longer. Easy access to the roof void is very limited, though, so will be a job to change.

To give proper advice a proper survey would need to be carried out.
Maybe if you leave us know your rough location someone might be able to PM a reccomendation.

engineermike

MicktheMan wrote: »

I find that a lot of money is wasted on insulation upgrades which are not appropriate or effective because a proper investigation into the major heat loss mechanisms wasn't done. This is further driven by govt grants and insulation experts (aka salemen) jumping on the bandwagon over the last half dozen years. You wouldn't agree to have an operation without a full suite of tests first to confirm that the operation is needed. Same goes for a house.

Many houses in Ireland are adequately insulated for the relatively mild Irish climate but lack any airtightness measures resulting in a draughty house and high energy bills. It is mistakenly thought that more insulation will address this where in fact it will have little, if any, effect.

My advice is to know where and how your house is losing it's heat first before spending on any insulation improvements by having a heat loss survey done by an experienced and independent company.

Yeah,
I have to agree with Mick, I think the few hundred quid spent with an independent professional is money well spent. Contractors tend to push their products / services, even if its not the best solution for the end user / customer. (not all contractors - it should be mentioned though! ).

Some of the concerns you have to deal with (judging by the brief description of the property from your posts)
WALL - Cavity / hollow block construction - limits your insulation choices. Care should be taken to not change how the wall breathes ( or at least to compensate for changes in the build up of the wall).
ATTIC - This has a simple enough solution, which can be cost effectively done by insulators or general builders. You have 150 mm of 'rock wool' or mineral type fibre insulation in the attic currently. The SEAI recommend at least 300 mm depth of rock wool or fibre. Taking that yours has probably compressed over the years, install at least a top up 200 mm of fibre insulation, insulate the sides & top of your water store tank. Lag the exposed pipes & put down a board to allow easy access to the tank.
WINDOWS - How much heat loss are you suffering because of older windows, if they are double glazed they may need seals renewed & hinges tightened - there are a no. of companies doing this repair work at present.

A way to check the heat loss independently and gain professional advice is to have a thermal imaging survey - which will show the spots in the wall that are losing the most heat, show air tightness issues & cold bridging of materials, or extra bad windows etc.
It would pin point your area's of concern specifically allowing you to address them cost effectively. PM for detail of a good chap to deal with (depending on where you live), and cost for the survey & report is circa 200 - 300.
mike f

rosehip

MicktheMan wrote: »

I find that a lot of money is wasted on insulation upgrades which are not appropriate or effective because a proper investigation into the major heat loss mechanisms wasn't done. This is further driven by govt grants and insulation experts (aka salemen) jumping on the bandwagon over the last half dozen years. You wouldn't agree to have an operation without a full suite of tests first to confirm that the operation is needed. Same goes for a house.

Many houses in Ireland are adequately insulated, for the relatively mild Irish climate but lack any airtightness measures resulting in a draughty house and high energy bills. It is mistakenly thought that more insulation will address this where in fact it will have little, if any, effect.

My advice is to know where and how your house is losing it's heat first before spending on any insulation improvements by having a heat loss survey done by an experienced and independent company.

That is very interesting Mick. I got my house insulated (walls and attic) BUT still had two draughts (did i spell that correctly?) that could freeze the house in minutes. I discovered they were coming from places i'd never expect! Have you any tips on the most obvious draughts in houses and the best way to deal with them?

I found draught excluders on mailbox, and front and back wooden doors, and around attic hatch were good and just old-fashioned pillow draught excluders placed at the bottom of doors were effective. Am i missing anything?

PS i also had closable vents put in the rooms creating the two draughts. Made a huge difference. And before anyone gives out - they are opened in the daytime and hot weather for ventilation along with the windows.

the_syco

If you don't have one, get a porch with a door. The moment you open the front door, you'll usually lose a lot of heat. A porch door goes a long way to stop this. It also helps if you can actually stand on the porch, ie; 4 or so feet between both doors, as the 1 foot porch are a bit useless on a new house.

Ray Palmer

the_syco wrote: »

If you don't have one, get a porch with a door. The moment you open the front door, you'll usually lose a lot of heat. A porch door goes a long way to stop this. It also helps if you can actually stand on the porch, ie; 4 or so feet between both doors, as the 1 foot porch are a bit useless on a new house.

How often are you opening your front door that you would loose heat that regularly? Are all the other doors in the house open?

It is a minor source of heat loss in general.

air

It's not just when the door is open that you're losing heat.
A front door will normally have a u value at least 5 times worse than the surrounding walls.
Having a porch outside creates a "semi-warm" space outside the door which reduces the rate of heat loss through the door even when it's closed.
It will also help somewhat with air tightness.

captainzero

am sceptical about spending anything above the standard on insulation. my house is recently built and insulated and sealed to the last degree but if the temperature outside falls its noticable inside immediately

Outkast_IRE

captainzero wrote: »

am sceptical about spending anything above the standard on insulation. my house is recently built and insulated and sealed to the last degree but if the temperature outside falls its noticable inside immediately

If temp falls that quickly, and it is well insulated (being a new build doesnt necessarily mean its well insulated i have been in housing estates where insulation is put in haphazard at best) Then you must have problems with drafts, and air infiltration all over the place, Properly fitted insulation makes a massive difference to internal temperatures as long as the house is reasonably draft free.

Ray Palmer

air wrote: »

It's not just when the door is open that you're losing heat.
A front door will normally have a u value at least 5 times worse than the surrounding walls.
Having a porch outside creates a "semi-warm" space outside the door which reduces the rate of heat loss through the door even when it's closed.
It will also help somewhat with air tightness.

Then your back door is as big a problem and people don't tend to put a porch on the back door.

Your windows are a bigger problem.

Not saying it isn't true but the logic of a porch making a big difference is overblown. The front door doesn't tend to be in your living space but the windows are.

A new build is in no way a guarantee of good insulation. The build code standard is higher than older houses but if it has been badly fitted it doesn't make much difference.

MicktheMan

rosehip wrote: »

Have you any tips on the most obvious draughts in houses and the best way to deal with them?

That's what I get paid for:D.

But I will say this. Very often, people confuse insulation with air tightness. In that, adding more insulation will solve their draught problems. They are not the same thing.
As an example, this morning, I was in a superbly insulated two year old house which was still expensive to heat because of draughts!

Different house types, age bands, structures, construction methods etc etc all have their peculiar weaknesses when it comes to air tightness.

air

I never said it was a "big" problem, the back door is obviously just as much of an issue with regard to standing losses assuming it's the same area and u value as the front door. However it's likely to see less through traffic so the opening / closing losses should be far less.
Windows generally represent a much larger area relative to the total building envelope though of course so their performance is a bigger issue. However there isn't much option to put a porch around them and they tend to get opened and closed far less often than a front door obviously.

Ray Palmer

air wrote: »

I never said it was a "big" problem, the back door is obviously just as much of an issue with regard to standing losses assuming it's the same area and u value as the front door. However it's likely to see less through traffic so the opening / closing losses should be far less.
Windows generally represent a much larger area relative to the total building envelope though of course so their performance is a bigger issue. However there isn't much option to put a porch around them and they tend to get opened and closed far less often than a front door obviously.

Then it comes back to what I said originally how often are you opening the front door that a porch would make that much of a difference. The u value or the door is what was then trotted out but that is the same issue on the back door.

It is just a weak argument. The u-value on the windows is a much better move to make considering the costs of building a porch and adding doors to it.

air

That's exactly what I said above that the standing losses from both doors will be the same, the opening / closing losses may be different depending on usage patterns.
The aspect of each respective door will make a lot of difference as to which one loses most heat - if your front door was on the North of the house then a porch would be of much greater value in winter for example.

I don't have any strong feelings one way or the other about porches. They can have benefits, however these are dependent on a lot of factors including usage pattern, orientation, location of the door within the internal space, traffic volumes etc. They also cost money to build of course so one needs to weigh up the various pros and cons.

josip

D_MM wrote: »

So, what I'm looking for advice on is the type of help I need to get in here. I'd like someone reliable and impartial that will give me the best view of what the minimal investment necessary is to reach an acceptable energy state for the house.

OP, the acceptable energy state of the house will depend primarily on you and your family, eg.

• Is your budget limited or unlimited?
• What parts of the house do you want heated and when?
• Do you want to go around in shorts and t-shirts or jumpers?
• Do you like cool air in the bedroom at night and a heavy duvet or light sheet and warm room.

Before getting a heat loss survey done, buy a couple of inside-outside min/max thermometers if you don't already have one. Keep one in the living room and alternate the other between the various rooms. Turn the heat in those rooms off in the night time, record temps, close door and record again in the morning. Take note also of outside wind point and speed. Vary with curtains pulled etc. It's crude but over a few weeks you'll build up a picture of actual problem rooms in the house rather than perceived problems and what your various comfort temperatures in the house are. What feels cold for you may not be cold for the rest of your family.


If I could only do 2 things the first would be to put heavy curtains on the windows and if your rads are under the windows put a shelf over them. The 2nd would be to get openable/closable covers for your ventilation ducts.


That's just me and I don't have much experience apart from what I've done in our own house.

rosehip

MicktheMan wrote: »

That's what I get paid for:D.

But I will say this. Very often, people confuse insulation with air tightness. In that, adding more insulation will solve their draught problems. They are not the same thing.
As an example, this morning, I was in a superbly insulated two year old house which was still expensive to heat because of draughts!

Different house types, age bands, structures, construction methods etc etc all have their peculiar weaknesses when it comes to air tightness.

I always like a freebie - go on - tell us

D_MM

Thanks so much for the responses. Very helpful. I've responded to a couple specifically.

Micktheman wrote:

I find that a lot of money is wasted on insulation upgrades which are not appropriate or effective because a proper investigation into the major heat loss mechanisms wasn't done. This is further driven by govt grants and insulation experts (aka salemen) jumping on the bandwagon over the last half dozen years. You wouldn't agree to have an operation without a full suite of tests first to confirm that the operation is needed. Same goes for a house....

..My advice is to know where and how your house is losing it's heat first before spending on any insulation improvements by having a heat loss survey done by an experienced and independent company.

Outkast_IRE wrote:

To give proper advice a proper survey would need to be carried out.
Maybe if you leave us know your rough location someone might be able to PM a reccomendation.

engineermike wrote:

A way to check the heat loss independently and gain professional advice is to have a thermal imaging survey - which will show the spots in the wall that are losing the most heat, show air tightness issues & cold bridging of materials, or extra bad windows etc.
It would pin point your area's of concern specifically allowing you to address them cost effectively. PM for detail of a good chap to deal with (depending on where you live), and cost for the survey & report is circa 200 - 300.

Thanks all. I think I have been putting 'heat loss' generally into the 'insulation' category in my head. Draughts definitely a problem though, and the front door as another poster highlighted I think is an area we could improve.

Engineermike - PM sent. We're in the Navan area of Meath, so if anyone has a recommendation for good/reliable people in that general area to do a survey, that would be great.

jospip wrote:

OP, the acceptable energy state of the house will depend primarily on you and your family, eg.
>Is your budget limited or unlimited?
>What parts of the house do you want heated and when?
>Do you want to go around in shorts and t-shirts or jumpers?
>Do you like cool air in the bedroom at night and a heavy duvet or light sheet and warm room.

Before getting a heat loss survey done, buy a couple of inside-outside min/max thermometers if you don't already have one. Keep one in the living room and alternate the other between the various rooms. Turn the heat in those rooms off in the night time, record temps, close door and record again in the morning. Take note also of outside wind point and speed. Vary with curtains pulled etc. It's crude but over a few weeks you'll build up a picture of actual problem rooms in the house rather than perceived problems and what your various comfort temperatures in the house are. What feels cold for you may not be cold for the rest of your family.


If I could only do 2 things the first would be to put heavy curtains on the windows and if your rads are under the windows put a shelf over them. The 2nd would be to get openable/closable covers for your ventilation ducts.

Budget certainly not unlimited! I have to confess that this winter has been a bit of an education. We've moved from a mid terrace house that heated up in ten minutes, and stayed warm for ages to a bigger, airleaky house. When the weather first cooled down, we were a bit reckless with the heating, and careless about leaving doors open, leaving the heat on too long, having the timer come on when we were out of the house etc. as it just hadn't been an issue previously.

We copped on a bit when the bills came. So, it's much more jumpers than t-shirts.

I like the suggestion of the thermometers, which I'll definitely do, and the practical recommendations. Thanks for your very helpful response.