Property tax (again)

ART6

I read in the newspapers yesterday that Revenue Commissioners (and our finance minister) have now admitted that although the the new property tax will be frozen on house values for three years, in fact local authorities will be free to increase (or decrease!!) them by 15% each year. A certain bet where they will go then. Look forward people, to a 15% increase year on year cumulative.

Of course, the initial response to the hostility to this parasitic tax was that it would always be "reasonable" and "moderate". When others dared to suggest that it would lead to continually escalating bills paid for services that don't exist ("Big" Phill Hogan eat your words!) the whole suggestion was ridiculed by the government.

I am trying hard to choose my words carefully although I am becoming bitterly angry. I know that our country is in a mess created by a previous government and an out-of-control financial industry. I know that every man, woman, and child in this country has massive debts dumped upon them by those who were supposed to represent them. I know that we have to rigidly obey the instructions of the moneylenders from the IMF and the ECB as a result, and if we don't pay up they will send in the hard men.

I know that our present government was elected with an overwhelming majority with a promise to sort this out. No more obfuscation. No more bowing to the EU. No more nepotism in government. Quangos would be abolished and ministers would have to pass exams every few months to see how they were doing. The incompetence of the previous administration would be dealt with and Ireland would emerge as a beacon for the world. We will climb out of this together.

So what did we get for our faith? A lot of admitted false promises uttered for no better reason than to protect and support the party dogma. Promises that could never be fulfilled, and were not intended to be. It was a freely admitted election ploy (Mr. Gilmore). No more obfuscation -- except in the case of the property tax perhaps?. No more bowing to the EU? "Oh well, actually we have no choice because the previous government handed us over to the Troika two years ago and in that time we couldn't do anything about it you understand, whatever we said at the time. Well, OK, we were in the Dail and could ask questions, but we didn't actually know what was going on. We were simply in opposition, and the Dail bar was open."

Quangos would be abolished? So how many fewer do we have now than we had in 2007? Does anyone actually know how many there are and how many have been formed during the current government? How much do they cost, compared with the salaries of nurses, doctors, refuse collectors? What do they do that is more valuable to society than the latter other than being paid a fee and expenses for being no better than "Good Ol' Joe" who has supported the party for years?

Ministers will have to pass exams, and their performance will be evaluated. Naturally, being highly intelligent and experienced people, every one passed with "A" grades. The fact that their ministry (Health perhaps) is a growing shambles is the fault of the previous government/workers/Troika/Unions/consultants/people who took on mortgages that they thought they could afford in order to build a home. That a student nurse in Ireland has to emigrate to find a job while a Filipino nurse hired from an agency by the HSE at twice the cost is considered to be an economic benefit.

So what do we have, people, after two years of this government? We have a bland leader who's grinning face seems to be on every web site and every newspaper. We have a finance minister who glowers and threatens those who pay his salary. We have a justice minister who is determined to reduce policing to Dublin. Cork, and (at a stretch) Galway cities and the rest of you can look after yourselves except that we won't allow you to. We have an environment and local government minister who seems to have a sublime belief that if he waves his muscles enough the world will capitulate and any semblance of good management doesn't enter the equation . We have, regrettably, an elected dictatorship by default, because we weren't paying attention. We wanted to punish those who got us in to this mess, and we over-reacted by electing an even larger gang of chancers.

Considering the property tax alone, and the latest revelations, what have we the people experienced? False promises in the cynical knowledge that they could never be fulfilled. Lies. Hiding the real small print in the new legislation so as to take the peasants by surprise and then be able to tell them "But you should have known." when there was no way that they could have. Political spin and PR going into overdrive with manipulators and experts paid by the public to brainwash the public. And, of course, "We have a mandate", which means we now consider that we have free reign to do whatever the hell we like as long as it preserves our position.

No doubt others will say "OK, what would YOU have done?" My answer is I don't know. I was not elected to represent the people under the Constitution. I am not an economist or a politician. I am just another ordinary Joe. However, I had this romantic illusion that those experienced and ethical people that I appointed might actually know what they were doing, and might defend the interests of my family and my children.

Just shows how wrong you can be!

paul71

You need to get your facts straight. There is no possibility of a 15% increase per annum, it is a 15% increase or decrease on the national rate which is fixed therefore it cannot be cumulative. Also this was not disclosed yesterday, it was disclosed the day the legislation was introduced, there was never any hidden aspect to it.

It is in fact a good thing because it places responsibilty for local authority budgets directly in the hands of the elected representatives. If they waste your money and increase the rate in your area, you can then hold them responsible and elect them out of office replacing them with someone who will control the budget and then reduce the rate.

Schnitzel Muncher

Is there a short version of the original post?

Dannyboy83

80 per cent of the tax collected would be retained in the local authority area with 20 per cent going into the national fund.

I hadn't realised this either.

It is in fact a good thing because it places responsibility for local authority budgets directly in the hands of the elected representatives. If they waste your money and increase the rate in your area, you can then hold them responsible and elect them out of office replacing them with someone who will control the budget and then reduce the rate.

The councils usually have a term of 5 years tho, don't they?

I mean if the councillors in Cork City are taking the piss in 2015, you still have to wait until 2019 before you can do anything about it.

I suppose it will mimic the way Fianna Fail used to do it in the 60s etc.
Big increase in post election years, big decrease in pre-election years.

skafish

paul71 wrote: »

You need to get your facts straight. There is no possibility of a 15% increase per annum, it is a 15% increase or decrease on the national rate which is fixed therefore it cannot be cumulative. Also this was not disclosed yesterday, it was disclosed the day the legislation was introduced, there was never any hidden aspect to it.

It is in fact a good thing because it places responsibilty for local authority budgets directly in the hands of the elected representatives. If they waste your money and increase the rate in your area, you can then hold them responsible and elect them out of office replacing them with someone who will control the budget and then reduce the rate.

And you don't think the proposed timing of the announcement of an increase/decrease, shortly after next years local election, is at all cynical?

Fine Gael are at least as bad as Fianna Fail, they just hide it better. How many of their pre election promices regarding getting rid of cronyism and quangos have they kept? Need we mention James Reilly and his medical center, or Simon Covney and his architect buddy on the board of the Marine institute?

And as for Gilmore et al; well, the words smoked salmon socialist have become overused, but I can't think of a better description, except hypocrites and soon to be unemployed.

Bullseye1

paul71 wrote: »

You need to get your facts straight. There is no possibility of a 15% increase per annum, it is a 15% increase or decrease on the national rate which is fixed therefore it cannot be cumulative. Also this was not disclosed yesterday, it was disclosed the day the legislation was introduced, there was never any hidden aspect to it.

It is in fact a good thing because it places responsibilty for local authority budgets directly in the hands of the elected representatives. If they waste your money and increase the rate in your area, you can then hold them responsible and elect them out of office replacing them with someone who will control the budget and then reduce the rate.

Like that really works. Central government cannot even control the wastage in health and have employed monies ringfenced for other areas to pay a €500 million deficit in the health budget alone.

Decrease? Your having a laugh.

Bullseye1

If we had shorter terms than the current 5 years then maybe we could hold them to task.

paul71

skafish wrote: »

And you don't think the proposed timing of the announcement of an increase/decrease, shortly after next years local election, is at all cynical?

What timing of what announcement? There was no announcement, the increase/decrease was in the original legislation on the day it was first introduced in the Dail.

hju6

http://www.attackthetax.com/index.html

Yes it's going to increase every year, expect bedroom tax on top of water tax etc, instead of tapping your phone , try and stop it.

paul71

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Like that really works. Central government cannot even control the wastage in health and have employed monies ringfenced for other areas to pay a €500 million deficit in the health budget alone.

Decrease? Your having a laugh.

It works if you make it work, but if you are too lazy to demand budget responsibilty/restraint of your local councilors when they call to your door looking for your vote then it is your own fault as a voter if you do not get a response to that demand. The same is true on a national level, we have got the politicians we deserve because we as a nation are lazy undemanding voters.

hju6

paul71 wrote: »

It works if you make it work, but if you are too lazy to demand budget responsibilty/restraint of your local councilors when they call to your door looking for your vote then it is your own fault as a voter if you do not get a response to that demand. The same is true on a national level, we have got the politicians we deserve because we as a nation are lazy undemanding voters.

You can't demand anything from dictators mate, black book banking crisis etc, the dicks we vote for have their strings pulled from above

paul71

hju6 wrote: »

You can't demand anything from dictators mate, black book banking crisis etc, the dicks we vote for have their strings pulled from above

As I said, lazy voters.

flynnlives

this tax will easily be the guts of 1,000 euro by the end of the decade, anyone who thinks otherwise is either deluded or a party shill

the average council tax in the UK is 1200 pounds
but at least in the uk you actually get stuff in return, this tax is just a banker tax

Bullseye1

paul71 wrote: »

It works if you make it work, but if you are too lazy to demand budget responsibilty/restraint of your local councilors when they call to your door looking for your vote then it is your own fault as a voter if you do not get a response to that demand. The same is true on a national level, we have got the politicians we deserve because we as a nation are lazy undemanding voters.

Politicians have been known to lie to people's faces at doorsteps with promises they never keep. As a result people become disillusioned with politics. Politicians have deliberately disillusioned the general populace from politics while maintaining their core vote and therefore the status quo.

A politician at the door step promising you that budgets will be met, taxes will not increase are under no obligation to keep those promises. They can always state things change and with five years in office are under no pressure. With shorter terms people would have more say in how politicians act. Z

Schnitzel Muncher

hju6 wrote: »

http://www.attackthetax.com/index.html

Yes it's going to increase every year, expect bedroom tax on top of water tax etc, instead of tapping your phone , try and stop it.

Sounds like a 2 euro tax to me. What it will be next year? 4 euros?

carpejugulum

Actually, the worry is that populists will promise to and lower it and they then won't have money to run services.
Of course, they will just blame people from Dublin, bankers, Germans...

flynnlives wrote: »

but at least in the uk you actually get stuff in return, this tax is just a banker tax

Vast majority of our deficit comes from huge PS & welfare budgets.

ART6

paul71 wrote: »

You need to get your facts straight. There is no possibility of a 15% increase per annum, it is a 15% increase or decrease on the national rate which is fixed therefore it cannot be cumulative. Also this was not disclosed yesterday, it was disclosed the day the legislation was introduced, there was never any hidden aspect to it.

It is in fact a good thing because it places responsibilty for local authority budgets directly in the hands of the elected representatives. If they waste your money and increase the rate in your area, you can then hold them responsible and elect them out of office replacing them with someone who will control the budget and then reduce the rate.

OK, I stand corrected. Now let's consider a case: Joe has been working on a production line in a factory where he is lucky to have retained his job. After eight hours he goes home where his wife is busy cooking a dinner for him and their two children after she has spent all day at work herself. Their home is in negative equity, and they are struggling to pay their mortgage and the new taxes, fees, levies, that are being or about to be imposed. They are worried that their joint income is being reduced by the day and that more is to come. They are well aware that while Enda Kenny claims that the cost of living in Ireland has reduced by seven percent, their food bill from Tesco seems to get higher every month.

They are aware that the more mundane things like their electricity bill and gas bill are increasing by leaps and bounds because the Regulator has permitted them and even encouraged them. They are encouraged by the government assurance that their income tax will not be increased (although all other deletions from their income will be). Joe will be happy that while the tax he pays on his car to permit him to get to work will be subject to a carbon tax, an excise duty, and VAT because that is essential to save the planet. Joe will want to save the planet while he is struggling to feed his children and keep a roof over their heads.

Perhaps Joe, in all of his problems, will not actually take the time to read through every detail of legislation. Perhaps he wouldn't even understand it if he did. Perhaps he relied upon the words of his elected politicians who assured him that the taxes the Troika had demanded would be "modest" because they had the people at heart but because they simply couldn't avoid them at the moment.

Then Joe discovers that he had been lied to. He had been fed misleading announcements that deliberately hid the real agenda. He watches the political elite lording it all over the world in executive jets while spouting sound bites that are expected to calm the proletariat in the process of enslaving their country. For the first time in the history of the state he is required to volunteer to pay a tax without any idea what it will be, and must pay €100 for the privilege of doing so.

He voted for a political party that promised the earth and then found himself ruled by a coalition that he didn't vote for. He found that both members of the coalition had lied through their teeth about what they would do in government, and had made promises that they knew full well they could never keep. Since then he has watched the economy shrinking and more and more jobs being lost, and he wonders when his job or that of his wife might be next, and how do they pay the bills then? He is firmly told than none of that matters. His elected dictatorship simply tells him "You will pay. If you don't do so voluntarily we will take it from what remains of your wages, or your child benefits, or your welfare if you are unemployed." Whatever the consequences of that, Joe, if you can't pay, will be dealt with by the new insolvency legislation that will offer you a fast track to bankruptcy.

Perhaps Joe might tonight sleep for a while with his wife in his arms and his children safe in their beds. Will he?

Now you suggest that Joe should have read the legislation, and if he didn't then he is to blame.

Oh, right!

hju6

Schnitzel Muncher wrote: »

Sounds like a 2 euro tax to me. What it will be next year? 4 euros?

Any reasoning behind that statement ?

cnoc

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Politicians have been known to lie to people's faces at doorsteps with promises they never keep. As a result people become disillusioned with politics. Politicians have deliberately disillusioned the general populace from politics while maintaining their core vote and therefore the status quo.

A politician at the door step promising you that budgets will be met, taxes will not increase are under no obligation to keep those promises. They can always state things change and with five years in office are under no pressure. With shorter terms people would have more say in how politicians act. Z

---

I agree with your statement concerning shorter terms between elections. 4 years would be a sufficient term. It has been recommended that the Presidential election should be every 5 years instead of 7 - proper order.

Schnitzel Muncher

carpejugulum wrote: »

Actually, the worry is that populists will promise to and lower it and they then won't have money to run services.
Of course, they will just blame people from Dublin, bankers, Germans...

Vast majority of our deficit comes from huge PS & welfare budgets.

Correct. SF have already promised to scrap it and refund any monies paid.

Schnitzel Muncher

How do you download a sticker?

Schnitzel Muncher

hju6 wrote: »

Any reasoning behind that statement ?

You know they way they call the Lottery an idiot tax? Same principle.

Morrisseeee

ART6 wrote: »

Enda Kenny claims that the cost of living in Ireland has reduced by seven percent

WHAT ! you're joking, when/where/how did he claim this ??!

Consider: electricity, car tax, all insurances, petrol/diesel, home heating, TV licence, TOLL roads, mortgage interest rate hike, etc

Consider: drop in child benefit, USC charges, household charge, property tax, water charge(coming in)

also: no job or have a job with no pay rise or pay freeze

..........and the average Joe/Joan (who must pay for all the wrongdoing (white collar crime) of the Gov & wbankers) Soap is a very unhappy/disgruntled/depressed individual

/and I didn't even mention the pain the elderly, the sick, the disabled, the youth (emigration), small businesses etc are feeling!!

Good loser

flynnlives wrote: »

this tax will easily be the guts of 1,000 euro by the end of the decade, anyone who thinks otherwise is either deluded or a party shill

the average council tax in the UK is 1200 pounds
but at least in the uk you actually get stuff in return, this tax is just a banker tax

I presume you mean on the average house because it is aready that on the most valuable houses.

You exaggerate to scare people. Furthermore in my opinion there is no way it will be at that level by 2020. And I am not deluded.

This tax is more about commonsense and being sensible. Do you want to go back to the FF days - when everything was free?

ardmacha

Do you want to go back to the FF days - when everything was free?

Of course not. Everything should be paid for, but not by me.

paul71

ART6 wrote: »

OK, I stand corrected. Now let's consider a case: Joe has been working on a production line in a factory where he is lucky to have retained his job. After eight hours he goes home where his wife is busy cooking a dinner for him and their two children after she has spent all day at work herself. Their home is in negative equity, and they are struggling to pay their mortgage and the new taxes, fees, levies, that are being or about to be imposed. They are worried that their joint income is being reduced by the day and that more is to come. They are well aware that while Enda Kenny claims that the cost of living in Ireland has reduced by seven percent, their food bill from Tesco seems to get higher every month.

They are aware that the more mundane things like their electricity bill and gas bill are increasing by leaps and bounds because the Regulator has permitted them and even encouraged them. They are encouraged by the government assurance that their income tax will not be increased (although all other deletions from their income will be). Joe will be happy that while the tax he pays on his car to permit him to get to work will be subject to a carbon tax, an excise duty, and VAT because that is essential to save the planet. Joe will want to save the planet while he is struggling to feed his children and keep a roof over their heads.

Perhaps Joe, in all of his problems, will not actually take the time to read through every detail of legislation. Perhaps he wouldn't even understand it if he did. Perhaps he relied upon the words of his elected politicians who assured him that the taxes the Troika had demanded would be "modest" because they had the people at heart but because they simply couldn't avoid them at the moment.

Then Joe discovers that he had been lied to. He had been fed misleading announcements that deliberately hid the real agenda. He watches the political elite lording it all over the world in executive jets while spouting sound bites that are expected to calm the proletariat in the process of enslaving their country. For the first time in the history of the state he is required to volunteer to pay a tax without any idea what it will be, and must pay €100 for the privilege of doing so.

He voted for a political party that promised the earth and then found himself ruled by a coalition that he didn't vote for. He found that both members of the coalition had lied through their teeth about what they would do in government, and had made promises that they knew full well they could never keep. Since then he has watched the economy shrinking and more and more jobs being lost, and he wonders when his job or that of his wife might be next, and how do they pay the bills then? He is firmly told than none of that matters. His elected dictatorship simply tells him "You will pay. If you don't do so voluntarily we will take it from what remains of your wages, or your child benefits, or your welfare if you are unemployed." Whatever the consequences of that, Joe, if you can't pay, will be dealt with by the new insolvency legislation that will offer you a fast track to bankruptcy.

Perhaps Joe might tonight sleep for a while with his wife in his arms and his children safe in their beds. Will he?

Now you suggest that Joe should have read the legislation, and if he didn't then he is to blame.

Oh, right!

Ancedotal evidence from a real character is a poor substitute for real statistical evidence, ancedaotal evidence from a fictional character is completely pointless.

However if you are asking a question in this post I assume it to be why should Joe not be happy with legislation that he has not read then my answer is.

1. Every citizen in a democratic country has a duty to keep themselves informed or else he fails in his democratic duty to his country and his fellow citizens.
2. The government was elected by Joe and his peers and he has the right to remove them, if you have another solution to this issue then you have discovered a better system then democracy and have done so faster then anyone else on the planet.
3. Joe should read what he is complaining about before he complains.