Points Foreign License - Irish Reg & Insured Car

ironclaw

Hi Folks,

Quick query on behalf of a friend. They drive an Irish registered and Irish insured car, and they live in Ireland full time (They themselves are not Irish). However they hold an EU foreign license.

Recently received two penalty points and paid the fine. However, upon renewal of insurance do they have to declare the points to an Irish insurance company? Granted the RSA have a record of the points but given that points are not transferable between States do they have an obligation to declare them? For all intensive purposes the foreign license (The license the insurance will be based on) is clean.

This isn't a 'can they evade a loading' question. Its a genuine query as I don't know how it works being resident, insured and driving in Ireland as opposed to living, insured and registered in NI and getting pulled in ROI.

Cheers!

jimgoose

Most insurance companies I've encountered aren't really bothered about two points, just four or more. In the latter case disclosing would be the correct and proper thing to do, regardless of in which jurisdiction the license is issued.

CiniO

Your friend was not awarded with penalty points on his licence, as it's impossible for Irish authorities to apply them to foreign licence.

Therefore there is nothing to declare to his insurer.

Points are stored in database, and in case your friend will ever change his licence to Irish one, those point will be activated on his Irish licence.
But while he holds foreign licence, those points don't apply.

ironclaw

CiniO wrote: »

Your friend was not awarded with penalty points on his licence, as it's impossible for Irish authorities to apply them to foreign licence.

Points are stored in database, and in case your friend will ever change his licence to Irish one, those point will be activated on his Irish licence.
But until he holds foreign licence, those points don't apply.

That was my understanding alright. And I appreciate 'the right' thing to do is declare them.

I just wasn't sure if it was a different story if you were driving an Irish reg'd and insured car. They have no intention of applying for an Irish license at the moment.

bmstuff

CiniO wrote: »

Points are stored in database, and in case your friend will ever change his licence to Irish one, those point will be activated on his Irish licence.
But until he holds foreign licence, those points don't apply.

Only if done within 3 years of receiving the points. Do it after, no points will be removed from your new Irish license.

CiniO

bmstuff wrote: »

Only if done within 3 years of receiving the points. Do it after, no points will be removed from your new Irish license.

I'm not sure what you mean by "points being removed from new Irish licence"

I heard that points stored in database for those with foreign licence don't expire.

So you might collect 2 points in 2004, 2 points in 2006, and if you exchange your licence for Irish now, you will get 4 points, which will expire 3 years from now on.

This becomes bit tricky, because someone could have collected 20 points over 20 years driving with foreign licence, so new if he decided to change it for Irish one, he would be disqualified straight away, so in other words he can't really exchange licence for Irish,.

God Father

bmstuff wrote: »

Only if done within 3 years of receiving the points. Do it after, no points will be removed from your new Irish license.

A family member of mine has a UK Licence and picked up points which were doubled due to an unsuccessful appeal so I think in total from 2 occasions a few years ago it might be 8 points that he should have had.

This was over 3 years ago though so if he does in the future get an irish licence will he get landed with these points onto his licence or will they have expired anybody know?

biko

I think CiniO is right in that the points build up and are regged onto your Irish licence when changed.
However, I suspect that when you do change it, and if there is an issue you can get them struck off by a judge.
I've actually never come across this scenario before so this is a grey area.

orol221

Hi, it is better to disclose even the insurance companies do not know that some1 has or was given any points. The reason is simple ... they would not chase you over the windscreen or etc. but lets say that you had an accident B]your mistake[/B and you have killed someone and there is a claim against you... insurance is obliged to pay settled claim but because you haven't told them that you had penalty points when you become insured means that you haven't fully disclosed all information which you have been asked before signing legal contract and you will have to paid all cost by yourself... Good luck .
I'm living here over 8 years, have full EU and received 2 points for speeding in 2008. Even there was no record of it, i told insurance that i have received 2 p. points and it was the same year after ...

CiniO

orol221 wrote: »

Hi, it is better to disclose even the insurance companies do not know that some1 has or was given any points. The reason is simple ... they would not chase you over the windscreen or etc. but lets say that you had an accident B]your mistake[/B and you have killed someone and there is a claim against you... insurance is obliged to pay settled claim but because you haven't told them that you had penalty points when you become insured means that you haven't fully disclosed all information which you have been asked before signing legal contract and you will have to paid all cost by yourself... Good luck .
I'm living here over 8 years, have full EU and received 2 points for speeding in 2008. Even there was no record of it, i told insurance that i have received 2 p. points and it was the same year after ...

In relation to bold text - You haven't told them you had penalty points, but did you really have them?

What I mean, it's not that you don't need to tell insurer because they won't find out, but you don't need to tell insurer about your points, because you don't have any.

They can find out that points are registered by Irish authorities on ghost licence, but that doesn't mean you have any points.
When insurer asks you: "do you have any penalty points" answer is "no".

hi5

I was caught speeding last year on my UK licence, the letter of endorsement says in bold writing that the 3 year period starts when I get a new licence.
So as far as I'm concerned I have no points currently.
Otherwise if I don't change my licence ( which I have no plans to do)I will be penalised with having points indefinitely, and that just ain't fair:(

ironclaw

Just to clarify, any accumulated points hit your license when you get an Irish one. It says so on the attached RSA letter. So even in 10 years from now, you'll be landed with them and then X amount of years later they expire. Its worded 'driving record' as opposed to driving license. So there is a record of the points somewhere recorded against a person, not a license.

On the flip side then, there is no point declaring them as they technically never expire, unless you immediately apply for and receive an Irish license. Catch 22 from what I can see.

orol221

CiniO wrote: »

In relation to bold text - You haven't told them you had penalty points, but did you really have them?

What I mean, it's not that you don't need to tell insurer because they won't find out, but you don't need to tell insurer about your points, because you don't have any.

They can find out that points are registered by Irish authorities on ghost licence, but that doesn't mean you have any points.
When insurer asks you: "do you have any penalty points" answer is "no".

Ok u r rite. With Irish Law system you might get away + you turn up for hearing and nice letter from parish ...

ironclaw

orol221 wrote: »

Ok u r rite. With Irish Law system you might get away + you turn up for hearing and nice letter from parish ...

Cino is right albeit it a little grey. In black and white, on the license they drive with, they have no points. Its not worth the debate as I'd imagine in this case you'd need case law to refer to. Its an unusual situation.

CiniO

I wonder though what about holders of foreign licences which do have points on their foreign licence issued in their home country...
Should those be declared to insurer? And if so, how will insurer know what the rules of point work in that country?

orol221

As far as i know this is Cul-de-sac. It is a big hole in legislation and points do not carry to other countries with ROI. But i lived in Holland ('04) and got speeding ticket twice 50km/h Zone my speed 52km/h & 54km/h in Germany no points just €30 each . I have received letters to Holland address and paid in local post office in town where i lived. That's how you deal with joy riders :D

CiniO

orol221 wrote: »

As far as i know this is Cul-de-sac. It is a big hole in legislation and points do not carry to other countries with ROI. But i lived in Holland ('04) and got speeding ticket twice 50km/h Zone my speed 52km/h & 54km/h in Germany no points just €30 each . I have received letters to Holland address and paid in local post office in town where i lived. That's how you deal with joy riders :D

Sounds bit unbelievable.

At the moment, fine in Germany for speeding up to 10km/h over the limit is 15 euros in built up areas and 10 euro outside builtup areas.

Generally it's not being chased at all. Only if you are more than 10km/h, you risk getting fined, and fines are still not big.
Here''s the list: http://www.aig.com/driving-in-germany_1369_288057.html

bmstuff

hi5 wrote: »

I was caught speeding last year on my UK licence, the letter of endorsement says in bold writing that the 3 year period starts when I get a new licence.

Maybe I got mixed up, but last time I read one of these, the point will run for 3 years, end of. I don't think if you apply for an Irish license in 10 years they would then aplpy 3 points straight to it. Maybe I misread it...

SCOOP 64

Always thought this the case ,the points you get will be hold until you get your Irish license no matter how long you wait, over 10 year period in Ireland i have 6 points,2 points 2004, 2p 2005 and 2p 2007, so these will still be on data base today for when i change my license for a Irish one, so 6 points waiting for me.
that what i always understood,hope im wrong!

ironclaw

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

Always thought this the case ,the points you get will be hold until you get your Irish license no matter how long you wait, over 10 year period in Ireland i have 6 points,2 points 2004, 2p 2005 and 2p 2007, so these will still be on data base today for when i change my license for a Irish one, so 6 points waiting for me.
that what i always understood,hope im wrong!

My understand is that you are correct. But as has been said, its a loop the loop with no real concrete solution. Rational thinking would dictate that the points will be null and void after say twice the term i.e. If you waited 6 years then the points would be dropped if you still had no Irish license.

orol221

CiniO wrote: »

Sounds bit unbelievable.

At the moment, fine in Germany for speeding up to 10km/h over the limit is 15 euros in built up areas and 10 euro outside builtup areas.

Generally it's not being chased at all. Only if you are more than 10km/h, you risk getting fined, and fines are still not big.
Here''s the list: http://www.aig.com/driving-in-germany_1369_288057.html

That's what i have received and I really don't need to put fake story here got letter with picture of the licence plate and picture of the person driving the car...
And let's not go to more details 'coz it's about points for foreigners in ROI and how legislation works.;)

keithclancy

CiniO wrote: »

Sounds bit unbelievable.

At the moment, fine in Germany for speeding up to 10km/h over the limit is 15 euros in built up areas and 10 euro outside builtup areas.

Generally it's not being chased at all. Only if you are more than 10km/h, you risk getting fined, and fines are still not big.
Here''s the list: http://www.aig.com/driving-in-germany_1369_288057.html

There is a correction allowing for 10km/h deviation in the equipment and your speedo.

It's always comes, I get the ticket 1 week later by registered post at my Dutch address.

Also they tack on an admin fee to boot, was about 15 euros I believe.

If you go over the speed limit by a certain amount your points are recorded with some office in flensburg.

Fred Swanson

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hi5

Here you go;

CiniO

So i looks like any foreign licence holder might collect 12 points or more over longer period and therefore whenever he decides to exchange licence for Irish, he will have 6 month off the road as a welcome


I can't really understand why can't they apply points normally to people with foreign licence, who live in Ireland.

If they collect those points in database on shadow licence record anyway, what's stopping them from actually using those points?

Any foreign licence holder resident in Ireland could collect points in that database the same as anyone else, and if he exceeds 12 points, then he would be banned from driving in Ireland.
Obviously his licence couldn't be taken off him, and no one could prevent him from driving abroad, but he could be banned from driving in Ireland for 6 months.

Fred Swanson

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CiniO

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Why only solution?

In Poland residents collect penalty points, no matter if they hold Polish licence or foreign licence. No one is forcing them to change licence, but penalty points are issued anyway.

If foreign licence holder exceeds points limit, they will suffer the same consequences as Polish licence holder, which might include driving ban.

Valetta

CiniO wrote: »

Any foreign licence holder resident in Ireland could collect points in that database the same as anyone else, and if he exceeds 12 points, then he would be banned from driving in Ireland.
Obviously his licence couldn't be taken off him, and no one could prevent him from driving abroad, but he could be banned from driving in Ireland for 6 months.

I could be wrong, but I always thought you were "banned from holding a driving license" rather than being "banned from driving".

I think there would have to be a substantial change in the legislation to implement what you are proposing.

Fred Swanson

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CiniO

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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If so, then there is nothing stopping them from disqualifying from driving person who holds foreign licence. (obviously this disqualification would apply only in Ireland).

Valetta

Can't find the actual legislation but I did find this

http://www.justanswer.com/ireland-law/43kcz-when-banned-drink-driving-ireland-does-law.html

Fred Swanson

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CiniO

Valetta wrote: »

Can't find the actual legislation but I did find this

http://www.justanswer.com/ireland-law/43kcz-when-banned-drink-driving-ireland-does-law.html

This part seems to confirm, that they could ban foreign licence holder from driving in Ireland, without actually taking him licence off him physically.

In Ireland, the Consequential Disqualification which is imposed following a conviction for drink driving, is pursuant to the Road Traffic Act 1961, Section 26(2), which reads: "...a consequential disqualification order shall operate to disqualify the person to whom the order relates for holding any driving licence whatsoever during a specified period..". This means that in Ireland, no driving licence which you may hold would be recognised as licensing you to drive in Ireland.

Assuming the same rules apply to penalty point disqualification as to drink driving disqualification.

Fred Swanson

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CiniO

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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It doesn't say anything about physically taking the document.
I think they couldn't take foreign issued document anyway.