Incalf Heifer

JohnnyDibber

Bought an incalf heifer at a mart in January for €1450 was supposed to calf in February, 3 months later and the heifer is only springing will probably calf in a fortnight.
Got back to the mart 2 weeks ago and aired my grievance, letter was sent to the vendor and also a copy was sent to me , 2 weeks later and i have heard nothing from him.
Looked for my copy of the original invoice I received from the mart and it clearly states February Calver.
Feel the vendor has totally taken the piss and has made no effort to rectify it.

Just looking for some advice on what best to do next.

Thanks in advance

towzer2010

Well I presume it would come under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/consumer_protection/consumer_rights/consumers_and_the_law_in_ireland.html

You will have to get the seller's details from the Mart and contact him directly to either take back the heifer with feed costs or if you want to keep her you can settle for feed costs from the date she was supposed to calf. If the seller wont play ball its the legal route I'm afraid.

I've had to contact three people over the last few years for various reasons and I have also been contacted over a heifer I sold so it all depends on the seller. Two were sound and we came to an agreement and one was a cnut so I just left it in the end and took the hit.

In the one where I sold a heifer which was in calf I took her back and paid feed costs.

bob charles

JohnnyDibber wrote: »

Bought an incalf heifer at a mart in January for €1450 was supposed to calf in February, 3 months later and the heifer is only springing will probably calf in a fortnight.
Got back to the mart 2 weeks ago and aired my grievance, letter was sent to the vendor and also a copy was sent to me , 2 weeks later and i have heard nothing from him.
Looked for my copy of the original invoice I received from the mart and it clearly states February Calver.
Feel the vendor has totally taken the piss and has made no effort to rectify it.

Just looking for some advice on what best to do next.

Thanks in advance

surely its not the end of the world if she calves 50 days later than what she was sold as, as she could carry 20 days over due. not ideal but I wouldnt see the reason on getting too excited

reilig

Did you get an AI docket with her?

Was she scanned in calf?

Due to calve in february could be february 28th. It is reasonable that an animal could bring 3 weeks with her due date. That's up to the 21st of march. So the seller could technically be 6 weeks out (and counting) instead of 12 on due date. It's quite reasonable to be 6 weeks out on a due date when an animal is running with a bull and you haven't seen her in heat.

In an extreme case, if it went to court, I don't know if you would win. You would be asked:
Who wrote "february calver" on the invoice? Was it the mart or the seller. Perhaps the seller said around february. Who does the liability lie with? The mart who wrote "february" or the seller who said "around february".

perhaps she was scanned and the scanner gave the date - then the liability lies with the scanner.

Personally i have never seen a mart write a due date on a receipt for an incalf cow or heifer. It makes them liable. The only time I ever see a due date for an incalf cow or heifer that i buy is if an ai docket comes as well. It's impossible to give an accurate due date for a heifer or a cow that was running with a bull - an in a court situation, this would be acceptable.

If I was the seller I wouldn't entertain you. But i wouldn't sell a heifer that was running with the bull and give an exact due date for her either. I might say I think it's around february - but that wouldn't tie me to that. Once she was incalf to the type of bull that i said, I would feel that I had fulfilled my obligation to you.

LivInt20

bob charles wrote: »

surely its not the end of the world if she calves 50 days later than what she was sold as, as she could carry 20 days over due. not ideal but I wouldnt see the reason on getting too excited

This is May.

The man was looking for a February calver.

It is a big deal.

JohnnyDibber

Theres a big difference in the month of January when selling a February calver and a May calver, your arguement about 50 days difference is complete bullsh*t.

whelan1

most scanning men are only accurate before 5 months , after that its a lottery, have had animals scanned that i was told where 5 months in calf that calved the next week etc....

bob charles

JohnnyDibber wrote: »

Theres a big difference in the month of January when selling a February calver and a May calver, your arguement about 50 days difference is complete bullsh*t.

Well if there is such a difference did you not notice it yourself that the animal didnt seem to be heavily pregnant?

and why is it my argument bullish*t as you say, 28th of feb was the last day the heifer should have calved, 50days on would be the 20th of April and 20days of an over carry would be up in a few days time.

Also why did you quote the price you paid for her? :rolleyes:

Timmaay

If ya believe them ha, Teagasc have come out with a figure of something like a May calving cow is worth 400quid less than a Feb calver due to the shorter lactation, and more expensive milking during Dec etc. It would take at least 2 yrs (but certainly not guaranteed, odds are if she has poor fertility she will slip the other way) to manage to pull that heifers calving date back to Feb also. So I'd tend to agree that this is a big enough deal.

Whelan, I'm certainly lucky to have an excellent local lad doing scanning, he predicts to within 1/4 of a month, I was there with a sheet of paper and the expected calving dates from AI and he got almost all of them bang on, and was able to tell me one or two that were say 1st serve instead of 2nd etc. These were from 35days+ AI'd to 8months gone.

And Whelan you're the fool if ya couldn't tell a cow was a week away from calving and ya needed it scanned :P :P

whelan1

Timmaay wrote: »

If ya believe them ha, Teagasc have come out with a figure of something like a May calving cow is worth 400quid less than a Feb calver due to the shorter lactation, and more expensive milking during Dec etc. It would take at least 2 yrs (but certainly not guaranteed, odds are if she has poor fertility she will slip the other way) to manage to pull that heifers calving date back to Feb also. So I'd tend to agree that this is a big enough deal.

Whelan, I'm certainly lucky to have an excellent local lad doing scanning, he predicts to within 1/4 of a month, I was there with a sheet of paper and the expected calving dates from AI and he got almost all of them bang on, and was able to tell me one or two that were say 1st serve instead of 2nd etc. These were from 35days+ AI'd to 8months gone.

And Whelan you're the fool if ya couldn't tell a cow was a week away from calving and ya needed it scanned :P :P

was a suckler... alot harder to judge some of them..... same scanning man toldme some cows where not in calf when they where

JohnnyDibber

bob charles wrote: »

Well if there is such a difference did you not notice it yourself that the animal didnt seem to be heavily pregnant?

and why is it my argument bullish*t as you say, 28th of feb was the last day the heifer should have calved, 50days on would be the 20th of April and 20days of an over carry would be up in a few days time.

Also why did you quote the price you paid for her? :rolleyes:

You cant seem to see the leaves from the trees, my issue is I took the mans word for when she was calving I had no problem giving €1450 for a February calver as it suited my system I would not have touched a May calver at any money. If I had a line of twenty big strong well fed three year old heifers in January, your telling me you could tell me the February, March, April and May calvers in them!

whelan1

a neighbour a few years ago bought supposedly in lamb ewes , waited for ages for the last one to lamb and when he caught it turned out it was a wether:D

Timmaay

whelan1 wrote: »

was a suckler... alot harder to judge some of them..... same scanning man toldme some cows where not in calf when they where

Fair enough, I'll ask my chap what difference he notices with suckers. He has been in the game for 20yrs so plenty of experience. My vet on the other hand said a cow was 5 months gone and she calved 3wks later, big HO with a deep calf and he only felt her by hand.

bob charles

JohnnyDibber wrote: »

You cant seem to see the leaves from the trees, my issue is I took the mans word for when she was calving I had no problem giving €1450 for a February calver as it suited my system I would not have touched a May calver at any money. If I had a line of twenty big strong well fed three year old heifers in January, your telling me you could tell me the February, March, April and May calvers in them!

there is usually a big difference in a heifer to calve in a month and one that is 3 or 4 months from calving. I know plenty of the cow feeders that are able to pick out the incalf cull feeder cows by "thumbing".

I wonder is the the "to calve in February" just to be taken as an indication to the buyer, same as the way the weights of animals when they go on a mart scales are to be taken - as an indication only.

JohnnyDibber

bob charles wrote: »

there is usually a big difference in a heifer to calve in a month and one that is 3 or 4 months from calving. I know plenty of the cow feeders that are able to pick out the incalf cull feeder cows by "thumbing".

I wonder is the the "to calve in February" just to be taken as an indication to the buyer, same as the way the weights of animals when they go on a mart scales are to be taken - as an indication only.

Heifers vary some spring for month to six weeks whereas others spring fast and calf within two weeks,
Dont know what the relevance of thumbing is, have bought plenty incalf cows over time through the dry cow ring by this method but cow needs to be 5-6 months incalf to be certain.
Feel your talking in circles, I asked a question but all you seem to be doing is beating about the bush and talking sh*te.

mallethead

Have to agreee with Johnny 50 days is a big difference if a calf puts on 1.2 kilos a day (not going mental on the weight gain) over fifty days thats 60 extra kilos live weight at 2.30 euro a kilo thats 138 euro difference in price .
Even if you want to bring it back to 2 euro a kilo its still 120 euro.
No suckler man would be too pushed about buying a may calving heifer ,they're too late in the year.
in our local mart if you say calving in feburary it will be on the docket as it is what you said as a seller , if you say calving from feburary onwards it will say calving feburary onwards on the docket
If he said feburary you could go back
If he said Feburary onwards i think you have to get on with it

razor8

JohnnyDibber wrote: »

Heifers vary some spring for month to six weeks whereas others spring fast and calf within two weeks,
Dont know what the relevance of thumbing is, have bought plenty incalf cows over time through the dry cow ring by this method but cow needs to be 5-6 months incalf to be certain.
Feel your talking in circles, I asked a question but all you seem to be doing is beating about the bush and talking sh*te.

Carrigallen Mart always print due date on docket, see attached