is planning permission required?

hallo dare

Hi, i'm in the process of designing my driveway from my house to the public road. I have the option of making a brand new driveway and applying for planning for a exit onto a public road or I have the second option of making a brand new driveway and coming out on the same residential gate that my parents use. using a dirt track at the minute seperate to these two options. my question is, do I need planning permission for my second option,as in do I need planning for to construct a road on my land and use an already existing gateway? as this would mean I can stary straight away and not have to wait for planning.
thanks

Poor Uncle Tom

What is the driveway going to access?

It's own site, backland area, agricultural lands, or other?

hallo dare

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

What is the driveway going to access?

It's own site, backland area, agricultural lands, or other?

hi Tom. as stated above it's to my house.

Poor Uncle Tom

As long as the pathway/paved area does not exceed 3m you don't need planning for it. However you need planning for the final exit/entrance from the public roadway, so if your parent's entrance already has planning permission, you are sorted.

hallo dare

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

As long as the pathway/paved area does not exceed 3m you don't need planning for it. However you need planning for the final exit/entrance from the public roadway, so if your parent's entrance already has planning permission, you are sorted.

o goly, my driveways gona be alot bigger than 3m. looking at a good 30-40 meters from the front door to my parents gateway. so i'd need to apply for planning for the road alone?

Poor Uncle Tom

hallo dare wrote: »

o goly, my driveways gona be alot bigger than 3m. looking at a good 30-40 meters from the front door to my parents gateway. so i'd need to apply for planning for the road alone?

NO, 3m in width! the length doesn't matter,

weren't you ever told that?.....:pac:

hallo dare

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

NO, 3m in width! the length doesn't matter,

weren't you ever told that?.....:pac:

never,anyone i've ever asked never knew,but you've made things really good fo me. fair play. the weekends sorted now. :-)

Scortho

Bare in mind that a house with a shared driveway/entrance in the country may lead to difficulties selling in the future.
While your parents might have no problem sharing a driveway/entrance with you, if you sell. The new buyer might fall out with them.
Likewise if your parents sell you may not get on well with the new owner.

hallo dare

Scortho wrote: »

Bare in mind that a house with a shared driveway/entrance in the country may lead to difficulties selling in the future.
While your parents might have no problem sharing a driveway/entrance with you, if you sell. The new buyer might fall out with them.
Likewise if your parents sell you may not get on well with the new owner.

thanks scortho, but they are elderly and won't be selling and then theres the land so I wont be selling. just delighted I don't need planning and can start into it asap as I badly need a new drive. wihoo!

hexosan

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

As long as the pathway/paved area does not exceed 3m you don't need planning for it. However you need planning for the final exit/entrance from the public roadway, so if your parent's entrance already has planning permission, you are sorted.

This is sooooo not true.

Just because your parents have planning for an entrance it doesn't mean you can automatically use this entrance without planning permission. I've just spent a nightmare YEAR dealing with a planning dept over this exact issue. Wasting countless thousands trying to explain common sense to morons.
The gist of the argent was the Council claimed increasing the traffic yeild out of the entrance could be detrimental to the traffic flow in the area.
I'd check with planning before you do anything, but word of warning don't expect to be dealing with anything short of total incompetence.

Sorry for been so negitive needed a slight vent.

sydthebeat

Is the public road you are accessing less than 4 m wide?

tnngo

just do it
if you apply you need 500feet of view on either side so you can see the road

sydthebeat

tnngo wrote: »

just do it
if you apply you need 500feet of view on either side so you can see the road

we are a metric country

also, advising someone to "just do it" is dangerous if there is any question regarding the legal status of any such development.

hexosan

sydthebeat wrote: »

Is the public road you are accessing less than 4 m wide?

No the road isn't less than 4m. We were told by planning that there was a restriction on a number of roads in the area to limit access onto them. Each compromise we made which were all agreed by the planner in advance of been submitted backfired on us resulting in the planner coming up/creating more ways to screw us.

Definitely someone who was keeping themselves in a job.

sydthebeat

hexosan wrote: »

No the road isn't less than 4m. We were told by planning that there was a restriction on a number of roads in the area to limit access onto them. Each compromise we made which were all agreed by the planner in advance of been submitted backfired on us resulting in the planner coming up/creating more ways to screw us.

Definitely someone who was keeping themselves in a job.

just for the OP, access onto a public road less than 4m wide is exempt.

for hexosan, most likely its the roads engineers making it difficult.
a house by its nature generates a pretty calculable number of traffic movements per day / week/ year etc.
You will need to show that either no newer or greater movements will occur, or by calculation, that the road can take the extra movements.

Poor Uncle Tom

There are a few issues being discussed in this thread at this stage. The basic ones are:

1. Whether the internal site driveway needs planning permission.
2. Whether the entrance needs planning permission to use.

Since the op stated s/he is already using a dirt track and since there is some sort of existing entrance in use then it can be taken that there is no increase in traffic being generated by these works, so the use of the existing entrance shouldn't be a problem as stated in my previous post.

The driveway should be an exempted development Under Class 13 of Part 1 of the Second Schedule of the Planning & Development Act, S.I No. 600 of 2001.

So I stand over my last assertion. hexosan's own situation is different.

muffler

hallo dare wrote: »

Hi, i'm in the process of designing my driveway from my house to the public road. I have the option of making a brand new driveway and applying for planning for a exit onto a public road or I have the second option of making a brand new driveway and coming out on the same residential gate that my parents use. using a dirt track at the minute seperate to these two options. my question is, do I need planning permission for my second option,as in do I need planning for to construct a road on my land and use an already existing gateway? as this would mean I can stary straight away and not have to wait for planning.
thanks

There's a little more to this than meets the eye. There's no problem with the actual driveway itself but its the entrance to the public road that I'd be concerned with.

How do you currently get from the road to your house?
If its an existing entrance directly to the road was planning got for it?
When was your house built and did it require planning?

You are aware that intensification of use of an existing entrance may not be permitted?

I think you may have to run this one past the planners in advance.

Mellor

muffler wrote: »

How do you currently get from the road to your house?
If its an existing entrance directly to the road was planning got for it?
When was your house built and did it require planning?

You are aware that intensification of use of an existing entrance may not be permitted?

Which is it the entrance itself or the road via the entrance. I'd take it as the latter.

I'd argue that if the house has permission*, the additional traffic to and from the dwelling has already been approved. This would the case even if the permission had no entrance included. Reason being the planning decision must take into account occupational usage. The roads dept has already had a chance to raise the increased usage to the raod and didn't. They can't retrospectively do this.

If an new entrance requires planning, they can deal with that on various other grounds. But, imo, they can't now, having approved the dwelling and the associated usage, prevent him using the driveway on the grounds of increased traffic to the road.

Maybe there's another issue they might raise, but I wouldn't be concerned about traffic.

Poor Uncle Tom

Mellor wrote: »

Which is it the entrance itself or the road via the entrance. I'd take it as the latter.

I'd argue that if the house has permission*, the additional traffic to and from the dwelling has already been approved. This would the case even if the permission had no entrance included. Reason being the planning decision must take into account occupational usage. The roads dept has already had a chance to raise the increased usage to the raod and didn't. They can't retrospectively do this.

If an new entrance requires planning, they can deal with that on various other grounds. But, imo, they can't now, having approved the dwelling and the associated usage, prevent him using the driveway on the grounds of increased traffic to the road.

Maybe there's another issue they might raise, but I wouldn't be concerned about traffic.

That's my reading of it too. My assumption is that there is planning permission in place for the house, if there is not any planning in place then the only exemptions that can apply will be for the current zoning of the lands.

hallo dare

thanks to all for the replies. yes there is planning in place for the house and "dirtroad" i'm using,but i'm looking to move from the dirtroad as the entrance/exit onto the public road is quite obscured and at the base of a hill,so safely coming onto the public road is quite dangerous. that's why i'm looking for what I explained in original post.

muffler

hallo dare wrote: »

thanks to all for the replies. yes there is planning in place for the house and "dirtroad" i'm using,but i'm looking to move from the dirtroad as the entrance/exit onto the public road is quite obscured and at the base of a hill,so safely coming onto the public road is quite dangerous. that's why i'm looking for what I explained in original post.

Thanks but can you clarify in relation to the entrance that was approved when you got planning permission for the house. Where was this entrance located or approved to be located, are you using this approved entrance to gain access to the public road?

In short how do you currently get access to the public road and was this approved at planning stage?

hallo dare

muffler wrote: »

Thanks but can you clarify in relation to the entrance that was approved when you got planning permission for the house. Where was this entrance located or approved to be located, are you using this approved entrance to gain access to the public road?

In short how do you currently get access to the public road and was this approved at planning stage?

hi, i'm using what was passed in planning, but it is too dangerous when coming onto the public road as stated above,thats why i'm looking to move my driveway and use the existing residential gateway my parents use.

I

muffler

hallo dare wrote: »

hi, i'm using what was passed in planning, but it is too dangerous when coming onto the public road as stated above,thats why i'm looking to move my driveway and use the existing residential gateway my parents use.

I

That being the case you will need planning permission to use an alternative entrance otherwise you are not in compliance with the PP previously granted.

If as you say, the parents entrance is safer then I wouldn't envisage any real issues but you do need to get it sorted though. Talk to the planner in advance.

McBaine

Hi
My daughter is in much the same position as the OP. The house she lives in is the old family home, built sometime in the early last century, so planning never arose. She uses the original entrance to that house, which entrance is also used by me to access farm buildings etc.
She would now like to make a new driveway, parallel to the existing one, but using the same entrance, which may require some widening. She and her husband have been living in the house for five years, so there will be no increase in traffic. Any views on this as regards planning
Thanks

Poor Uncle Tom

McBaine wrote: »

Hi
My daughter is in much the same position as the OP. The house she lives in is the old family home, built sometime in the early last century, so planning never arose. She uses the original entrance to that house, which entrance is also used by me to access farm buildings etc.
She would now like to make a new driveway, parallel to the existing one, but using the same entrance, which may require some widening. She and her husband have been living in the house for five years, so there will be no increase in traffic. Any views on this as regards planning
Thanks

Widening the entrance needs planning permission.

sydthebeat

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Widening the entrance needs planning permission.

... if the road being accessed is wider than 4.0 meters and public

Poor Uncle Tom

sydthebeat wrote: »

... if the road being accessed is wider than 4.0 meters and public

That's the assumption.

McBaine

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Widening the entrance needs planning permission.

Thanks Poor Uncle Tom
So am I correct in thinking that if she could use the existing entrance without widening it, planning is not required for the new driveway on its own?

hallo dare

Hi pooruncletom,
I was just talking with an engineer about my plans and he said if i'm creating a driveway I require planning. The class you referred to only applies to improving an existing driveway. i'm completely lost now.

muffler

hallo dare wrote: »

Hi pooruncletom,
I was just talking with an engineer about my plans and he said if i'm creating a driveway I require planning. The class you referred to only applies to improving an existing driveway. i'm completely lost now.

There have been several deviants in this thread so its best you quote the post you are referring or refer to the post number for clarity.

Poor Uncle Tom

McBaine wrote: »

Thanks Poor Uncle Tom
So am I correct in thinking that if she could use the existing entrance without widening it, planning is not required for the new driveway on its own?

Planning permission is needed for a second driveway, I was just pointing out that planning permission is needed for the widening of the entrance as well.

hallo dare

muffler wrote: »

There have been several deviants in this thread so its best you quote the post you are referring or refer to the post number for clarity.

i'm the OP, it's my thread

Poor Uncle Tom

hallo dare wrote: »

hi, i'm using what was passed in planning, but it is too dangerous when coming onto the public road as stated above,thats why i'm looking to move my driveway and use the existing residential gateway my parents use.

hallo dare wrote: »

Hi pooruncletom,
I was just talking with an engineer about my plans and he said if i'm creating a driveway I require planning. The class you referred to only applies to improving an existing driveway. i'm completely lost now.

I'm a little confused myself with the information given.

You have an existing driveway within your site which you want to improve and in doing so you want to use your parents entrance. If this is the case the driveway improvement is covered under Class 13. The use of the parents entrance is dealt with elsewhere and is best cleared with the planning office but as was stated if it improves your situation and doesn't increase traffic usage, then it should be ok.

If, on the other hand, you are going to disuse an existing driveway and entrance which was granted planning permission and construct a new driveway (outside of your own site) it will need planning permission, imo.

hallo dare

hi uncle tom,
sorry,you are getting all confused as I can see you are quoting both someone elses post and mine. if possible can we stick with mine as I was the OP and others have hijacked the thread and made things all messy. thanks

muffler

hallo dare wrote: »

i'm the OP, it's my thread

Apologies my mistake

hallo dare wrote: »

hi uncle tom,
sorry,you are getting all confused as I can see you are quoting both someone elses post and mine. if possible can we stick with mine as I was the OP and others have hijacked the thread and made things all messy. thanks

This is the problem when several issues get discussed at the same time.

To answer your question again. As I pointed out previously I am of the opinion that you will need planning permission because you are deviating from what was approved with your planning permission.

Poor Uncle Tom

hallo dare wrote: »

hi uncle tom,
sorry,you are getting all confused as I can see you are quoting both someone elses post and mine. if possible can we stick with mine as I was the OP and others have hijacked the thread and made things all messy. thanks

Apologies, I have sorted out the quotes on my post now.
and basically if you are improving your own driveway within your own site (as granted planning) then you don't need planning permission, imo. If you are disusing your driveway and creating another one (outside of your site) then you need planning permission.

McBaine

hallo dare wrote: »

hi uncle tom,
sorry,you are getting all confused as I can see you are quoting both someone elses post and mine. if possible can we stick with mine as I was the OP and others have hijacked the thread and made things all messy. thanks

Hi hallo dare

Apologies for messing things up. You are quite right of course in that, as you are the OP, this is your thread.
I just thought that because our queries were rather similar, we could share in any advice or knowledge generously offered by other contributors.

Hope things work out fine for you

gozunda

sydthebeat wrote: »

Is the public road you are accessing less than 4 m wide?

Apologies for the old thread reference but I am interested in the above exemption. Re road < 4 metres exemption.

Does anyone know what part of the planning regulations this is contained in and whether this exemption is still on the books ? I have trawled the various online planning refs but as the info is as badly indexed / arranged as is possible imo I have failed to find it ... Any pointers appreciated ...

sydthebeat

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0600.html


Planning and developed regulatIons 2001
Part 2, section 9 (1) (ii)

gozunda

sydthebeat wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0600.html


Planning and developed regulatIons 2001
Part 2, section 9 (1) (ii)

Thanks!

Re Exempted development
...

(ii) consist of or comprise the formation, laying out or material widening of a means of access to a public road the surfaced carriageway of which exceeds 4 metres in width,

My understanding of the above paragraph is that the widening of an existing access to a public road - the road being less than 4 metres in width IS therefore exempted development and does not require planning permission?

Is it necessary / advisable to notify planning of intent?

Mellor

gozunda wrote: »

My understanding of the above paragraph is that the widening of an existing access to a public road - the road being less than 4 metres in width IS therefore exempted development and does not require planning permission?

Is it necessary / advisable to notify planning of intent?

Widening the entrance is exempt.
It's not necessary to inform the council. And best to bit bother, as you risk somebody misunderstanding the work and tying it all up.

mickdw

sydthebeat wrote: »

just for the OP, access onto a public road less than 4m wide is exempt.

can someone direct me to the wording of this exemption

gozunda

mickdw wrote: »

can someone direct me to the wording of this exemption

It's contained here

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0600.html#part2

Part 2, section 9 (1) (ii)

Thanks to sydthebeat above

sydthebeat

And just to clarify in case there's any misunderstanding. ..

The road must be public and less than 4.0 m wide.

gozunda

sydthebeat wrote: »

And just to clarify in case there's any misunderstanding. ..

The road must be public and less than 4.0 m wide.

Of interest - the regulations don't seem to specify whether it's the average width of the road in question or the width along the access point / section that should be less than 4 metres ...