'More effective’ use of child benefit budget

PRAF

I see Minister for Education Ruairi Quinn is looking to open a debate around the most effective use of the child benefit budget. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/quinn-suggests-more-effective-use-of-child-benefit-budget-1.1386105

Predictably it has already got some people's backs up and I see that FF are outraged that the Minister had the temerity to even bring it up in public discourse.

Personally, I think that a further investment in pre-school places would be a great idea. It would be great for the children, great for working parents, great for society as a whole, etc. Certainly it seems worthy of consideration. Ideally you wouldn't hit child benefit to fund it, but these are difficult times and I think (to borrow a cliché) we need to do more with less.

What do people think - a sensible use of scarce public resources & an investment in early education OR a raid on child benefit recipients & yet another example of big govt interfering in our lives?

Godge

This has been done to death here with many good ideas on how to replace cash child benefit with direct provision.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74662509&postcount=11

here is one of my posts from nearly two years ago on the subject. Many others have made a similar point.

glad to see at least one Minister is waking up to this.

The kneejerk FF reaction was utterly predictable.

sean200

Quinn is an over paid idiot

PRAF

Didn't realise it had been done before. I agree with your post from 2011 Godge.

Cody Pomeray

This would be politically challenging and I predict it won't happen as is.

It will be impossible to convince parents to swallow a major cut in the cash transfer rate of child benefit, presently a household income. Especially since unemployed parents who do not find work would derive no tangible benefit.

The unpopularity would be heightened if funding allocations were not means tested.

Godge

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

This would be politically challenging and I predict it won't happen as is.

It will be impossible to convince parents to swallow a major cut in the cash transfer rate of child benefit, presently a household income. Especially since unemployed parents who do not find work would derive no tangible benefit.

The unpopularity would be heightened if funding allocations were not means tested.

It is funny, isn't it.

The total value of the child benefit payments is €2.2 billion, yet not politically possible to cut it as it is household income but it is not even taxed. It is also paid at a rate more than 10 times the rate in other European countries.

The total pay bill for the civil service in 2012 was €1.8 billion, all of it taxed, (we can throw in the non-commercial state bodies as well at €384k to make them comparable) yet everyone is screaming for this to be cut.


http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Analysis-of-Exchequer-Pay-and-Pensions-Bill-2007-20121.pdf

wolfpawnat

Godge wrote: »

The total value of the child benefit payments is €2.2 billion, yet not politically possible to cut it as it is household income but it is not even taxed. It is also paid at a rate more than 10 times the rate in other European countries.

But what you get here, is pathetic in comparison to said other EU countries. People obsess at the Irl vs GB payment. But think about it. According to wikipedia (not the most reputable source) it is £20.30 a week, that is £1055.60 a year to our €1560 for 1 child. They also get assistance with school, health costs, dental costs. I rather theirs to ours but it would actually cost Ireland more to do it and the government know it.

More childcare is great, just a few problems.

- the childcare is not to suit the parents needs, but to suit the providers. So if a part-time working mother starts work at 8am and finishes at 1pm and the local ECCE creche only takes children from 9:30 to 12:30, she has to arrange around that.

- With 13% unemployment rate, parents need the money to pay for essentials for their children, not extra creche where it in no real way effects their day.

- What about parents of older children, more creche time is great....if you have a creche aged child. But a family with kids older than 5 years old, the money goes on another uniform as Johnny has had a growth spurt, or revision books for the JC and LC. Or school books in general. Hell even the school swimming lessons need to be paid somehow.

Death and Taxes

Abolish child benifit altogether and replace with free school meals, free uniforms, free books, and paid for homework clubs and summer camps.
All of the above would only be available to children in publicly funded schools.
With free school meals and uniforms etc it would benifit the most disadvantaged most, and the richest (in their private schools) least, it would also end the constant demands for voluntary contributions by schools to hard pressed parents.

PRAF

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Abolish child benifit altogether and replace with free school meals, free uniforms, free books, and paid for homework clubs and summer camps.
All of the above would only be available to children in publicly funded schools.
With free school meals and uniforms etc it would benifit the most disadvantaged most, and the richest (in their private schools) least, it would also end the constant demands for voluntary contributions by schools to hard pressed parents.

I agree with the sentiments but I don't think that kind of black and white decision making is possible in Ireland. You'd need to stagger such a change in over a long period of time so as not to push parents who rely on the current payment into poverty. Basically you'd be talking about phasing out the flat rate payment over say 10-15 years and replacing it with those 'free' services you talk about. I think it should be done. I wonder does the current govt have the cojones to do it though

Godge

wolfpawnat wrote: »

But what you get here, is pathetic in comparison to said other EU countries. People obsess at the Irl vs GB payment. But think about it. According to wikipedia (not the most reputable source) it is £20.30 a week, that is £1055.60 a year to our €1560 for 1 child. They also get assistance with school, health costs, dental costs. I rather theirs to ours but it would actually cost Ireland more to do it and the government know it.

More childcare is great, just a few problems.

- the childcare is not to suit the parents needs, but to suit the providers. So if a part-time working mother starts work at 8am and finishes at 1pm and the local ECCE creche only takes children from 9:30 to 12:30, she has to arrange around that.

- With 13% unemployment rate, parents need the money to pay for essentials for their children, not extra creche where it in no real way effects their day.

- What about parents of older children, more creche time is great....if you have a creche aged child. But a family with kids older than 5 years old, the money goes on another uniform as Johnny has had a growth spurt, or revision books for the JC and LC. Or school books in general. Hell even the school swimming lessons need to be paid somehow.

If you read what is advocated you will see that what posters are suggesting is that child benefit be replaced by initiatives such as free school books, free school uniforms (maybe even school lunches), pre-school childcare for all, after-school child-care for working parents etc.

This means that child benefit will no longer be banked for private school fees or half-term holidays in Lanzarote, will no longer be sent by Western Union to Poland or China, and will no longer be drunk, smoked or injected. Instead child benefit will go directly to the benefit of the child. I cannot see how anyone could disagree with this in principle unless they use child benefit for something other than a child's benefit.

PRAF wrote: »

I agree with the sentiments but I don't think that kind of black and white decision making is possible in Ireland. You'd need to stagger such a change in over a long period of time so as not to push parents who rely on the current payment into poverty. Basically you'd be talking about phasing out the flat rate payment over say 10-15 years and replacing it with those 'free' services you talk about. I think it should be done. I wonder does the current govt have the cojones to do it though

I think it would take 3-5 years, time to run tender competitions for school books etc, time to set-up childcare facilities etc.

wolfpawnat

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Abolish child benifit altogether and replace with free school meals, free uniforms, free books, and paid for homework clubs and summer camps.
All of the above would only be available to children in publicly funded schools.
With free school meals and uniforms etc it would benifit the most disadvantaged most, and the richest (in their private schools) least, it would also end the constant demands for voluntary contributions by schools to hard pressed parents.

That is a fair and safe idea, except for one thing, parents of young children (newborn to three years) need money, or at the very least supplies such as nappies, formula milk and the like. That is why the money is so essential at that stage. Also the little buggars seem to need new clothes every other month.

Godge wrote: »

If you read what is advocated you will see that what posters are suggesting is that child benefit be replaced by initiatives such as free school books, free school uniforms (maybe even school lunches), pre-school childcare for all, after-school child-care for working parents etc.

This means that child benefit will no longer be banked for private school fees or half-term holidays in Lanzarote, will no longer be sent by Western Union to Poland or China, and will no longer be drunk, smoked or injected. Instead child benefit will go directly to the benefit of the child. I cannot see how anyone could disagree with this in principle unless they use child benefit for something other than a child's benefit.





I think it would take 3-5 years, time to run tender competitions for school books etc, time to set-up childcare facilities etc.

I agree, the way CB is abused is sickening, and it is the reason so many are against the payment. And I do not blame them. Money going abroad or being spent on things completely not related to the child sicken me. I had my own MIL saying I should put it in a saving account for my son for when he is older to do what he wants with :rolleyes: I need that money now, that keeps him cared for now, and nothing is wasted.

CB should be for use to pay for a child and the child only, I wholeheartedly agree. And overall a revamp of the health and education systems to ensure good health and education for all children would indeed be the best for the children. But as I stated. There are expenses that occur that the payment for many families are essential. Formula Milk and the like, €10 for a tub, nappies are a small fortune too, these are things that cannot be ignored. I know people always come out with the argument "if you can't afford kids, don't have them" but not getting into a huge side argument about it, that is all well and good, but not everything can be planned.

Sleepy

Abolish Childrens Allowance.

Allocate tax credits to working payments.
Increase dependent child allowance for those on welfare.

Redeploy / let go staff currently administrating out-dated payment. Additional savings made as no admin required or IT infrastructure to be supported / licensed.

The only problem I can see with this is the backwards notion of the "poor mother" whose husband drinks the rest of their welfare entitlements but in a country with divorce laws, that argument doesn't stand up. Obviously, it's also just too damn sensible to be implemented in this banana republic.

nesf

WileyCoyote wrote: »

With free school meals and uniforms etc it would benifit the most disadvantaged most, and the richest (in their private schools) least, it would also end the constant demands for voluntary contributions by schools to hard pressed parents.

The voluntary contributions we get asked for have nothing to do with any of the things you want to make free. We already pay for the lunches, uniforms, books etc. Actually I'm quite at a loss how you think giving out free uniforms, lunches and books will address problems of underfunding in schools when the schools don't provide any of these things to parents and often make some money of the sale of uniforms with school crests on them (which are impressively expensive).

Voluntary contributions will stay so long as there isn't enough money being given to schools. At the moment the only way to reasonably do this would be to cut teachers' wages by some amount and handing it over to pay for school services. I don't see that ever happening though.