Old cubicle shed - short term suggestions?

kowtow

We have an old 30 cow cubicle shed (6.5m x 18m, only opening is the passageway - block concrete and tin roof) which has been serving as winter quarters for our mixed up little herd of FR while we plan better accomodation..

From January to this weekend we deep strawed the shed and cut out a few of the old style cubicles, dividing up into 2 or 3 pens as needed for springers and calving. The calves - which are suckling - use some fenced off cubicles as a dry lie, but by and large everyone lay on the straw.

Now that they are out at grass during the day, and we have only one left to calve, deep straw is becoming intolerable as the slurry is so loose. We took the plunge yesterday and pulled out 18 inches of compacted bed, exposing the concrete floors and cubicles.

The cows - of course - are reluctant to use the cubicles not least as the kerb is 12", not allowing for straw, so for the time being we've put a thin layer of straw up on the "bunks" where we removed cubicles. Those that don't sleep outside in the yard fight for space in the bunks with the calves.

The plan is to put up a new shed over and beyond this one in due course with space for everyone and new cubicles, crossovers, etc. but in the meantime we're considering putting the scraper back into action in the old shed and trying to make it as comfortable as possible for a dozen or so cows and replacements... whilst the cows are out all day and will shortly go out at night as well we want the option to bring them back up when it's wet to save the already badly worn pasture from more poaching while we get things in order.

However - these old cubicles (2m length against solid walls, big step, only 1.10/1.20 width) - seem like a losing proposition for a herd which has never been in cubicles in the first place.

Am I mad trying to get them to use this space, or does anyone have any sensible suggestions to make something of it for this summer, maybe even into the winter, while we get a better solution sorted out?

grazeaway

kowtow wrote: »

We have an old 30 cow cubicle shed (6.5m x 18m, only opening is the passageway - block concrete and tin roof) which has been serving as winter quarters for our mixed up little herd of FR while we plan better accomodation..

From January to this weekend we deep strawed the shed and cut out a few of the old style cubicles, dividing up into 2 or 3 pens as needed for springers and calving. The calves - which are suckling - use some fenced off cubicles as a dry lie, but by and large everyone lay on the straw.

Now that they are out at grass during the day, and we have only one left to calve, deep straw is becoming intolerable as the slurry is so loose. We took the plunge yesterday and pulled out 18 inches of compacted bed, exposing the concrete floors and cubicles.

The cows - of course - are reluctant to use the cubicles not least as the kerb is 12", not allowing for straw, so for the time being we've put a thin layer of straw up on the "bunks" where we removed cubicles. Those that don't sleep outside in the yard fight for space in the bunks with the calves.

The plan is to put up a new shed over and beyond this one in due course with space for everyone and new cubicles, crossovers, etc. but in the meantime we're considering putting the scraper back into action in the old shed and trying to make it as comfortable as possible for a dozen or so cows and replacements... whilst the cows are out all day and will shortly go out at night as well we want the option to bring them back up when it's wet to save the already badly worn pasture from more poaching while we get things in order.

However - these old cubicles (2m length against solid walls, big step, only 1.10/1.20 width) - seem like a losing proposition for a herd which has never been in cubicles in the first place.

Am I mad trying to get them to use this space, or does anyone have any sensible suggestions to make something of it for this summer, maybe even into the winter, while we get a better solution sorted out?

raise the passage by a few inches by pouring in concrete. this will reduce teh step, you can then use the scraper to clean it out. If you want to you could tehn remove teh old cubicle and replace with one that may be more comfortabel for the cows.

I have often put in a calf pen at the back of the a cubicale shed. I tie two decent pallets to the cubicles and then put a gate in between. I put a sheet of plywood on to the gate down to level of the floor to stop the straw coming out. I can then open one of the pallets to let the calves in and out. The can fit under the cubicle but the cow cant. Depending on how much room i need i can make the pen bigger or smaller by moving the gate and pallets.

kowtow

grazeaway wrote: »

raise the passage by a few inches by pouring in concrete. this will reduce teh step, you can then use the scraper to clean it out. If you want to you could tehn remove teh old cubicle and replace with one that may be more comfortabel for the cows.

I was thinking that might work.. although will have to find a way to bring the scraper gently "downhill" at the exit of the cubicle shed since it carries a fair distance across the yard to the tank... that part of the yard is wearing anyway and could do with a concrete screed over it, even temporarily.

Before I do that though my concern is that, at 2m deep against a solid wall, the larger cows just won't use the cubicles. At present I have only one cow prepared to lie down in them, some of the others will stand with their feet up but none are prepared to go forward into them (voluntarily, anyway - haven't tried anything else..)

One idea is to use only one side of the shed - reposition a dozen decent cubicles in there, perhaps a little wider, and extend the bench outwards, perhaps combining it with a new pour in the passage to bring the bench to a sensible height. At the same time I'd have to cut off the front of the bench on the other side of the passage and take out the cubicles to allow the scraper to move across.. however, seems like quite a lot of work for a temporary solution. Part of me thinks - the old guy that had this place for years got Cows to fit in there, maybe I'm being too fussy -

freedominacup

kowtow wrote: »

I was thinking that might work.. although will have to find a way to bring the scraper gently "downhill" at the exit of the cubicle shed since it carries a fair distance across the yard to the tank... that part of the yard is wearing anyway and could do with a concrete screed over it, even temporarily.

Before I do that though my concern is that, at 2m deep against a solid wall, the larger cows just won't use the cubicles. At present I have only one cow prepared to lie down in them, some of the others will stand with their feet up but none are prepared to go forward into them (voluntarily, anyway - haven't tried anything else..)

One idea is to use only one side of the shed - reposition a dozen decent cubicles in there, perhaps a little wider, and extend the bench outwards, perhaps combining it with a new pour in the passage to bring the bench to a sensible height. At the same time I'd have to cut off the front of the bench on the other side of the passage and take out the cubicles to allow the scraper to move across.. however, seems like quite a lot of work for a temporary solution. Part of me thinks - the old guy that had this place for years got Cows to fit in there, maybe I'm being too fussy -

How much are you willing to spend on your temporary fix?

You could cut out the cubicles and herringbone them which would get you an extra 330mm on the bed length. Install mats on the longer ones and you could be getting somewhere. Grazeaway is right about pouring a screed to raise the floor also.

yellow50HX

kowtow wrote: »

I was thinking that might work.. although will have to find a way to bring the scraper gently "downhill" at the exit of the cubicle shed since it carries a fair distance across the yard to the tank... that part of the yard is wearing anyway and could do with a concrete screed over it, even temporarily.

Before I do that though my concern is that, at 2m deep against a solid wall, the larger cows just won't use the cubicles. At present I have only one cow prepared to lie down in them, some of the others will stand with their feet up but none are prepared to go forward into them (voluntarily, anyway - haven't tried anything else..)

One idea is to use only one side of the shed - reposition a dozen decent cubicles in there, perhaps a little wider, and extend the bench outwards, perhaps combining it with a new pour in the passage to bring the bench to a sensible height. At the same time I'd have to cut off the front of the bench on the other side of the passage and take out the cubicles to allow the scraper to move across.. however, seems like quite a lot of work for a temporary solution. Part of me thinks - the old guy that had this place for years got Cows to fit in there, maybe I'm being too fussy -

put in a small ramp at the front of the passage to allow the scraper to get back to yard level. The cows are used to sitting on a straw bed so that is why they wont go into the cubicles. The idea of the mats would be a good idea as you can reuse them after wards.

What is your long term plan. There is no point spendign a lot of time and money for 1 year. Do you intend on reusing this shed or is going to be flattened and a new one built?

My advice to anyone building a new shed is to get out a few big sheets of paper and start drawing out your ideas. see how it would look with gates and most imporatly try to visualise how the animals will move around. How you can seprate them, draft them, feed them, and how you can get a tractor in to clean it or to lift out a cow. Be a magpie and go to differnt peoples sheds and steal teh good ideas for your self. Take lots of photos and pick their brains. If you plan it well you can do a great job from teh start. its always a pain in the arse to go back afterwards

kowtow

freedominacup wrote: »

How much are you willing to spend on your temporary fix?

You could cut out the cubicles and herringbone them which would get you an extra 330mm on the bed length. Install mats on the longer ones and you could be getting somewhere. Grazeaway is right about pouring a screed to raise the floor also.

Hmm.. hadn't thought about a herringbone... in fact I'm not sure I've ever seen cubicles in a herringbone although I can't see why it wouldn't work. Any danger of cows trying to go forward and crashing across the cubicles rather than backing out?

These are the old fashioned fixed cubicles, no neck rail, stanchions fore and aft.. they aren't particularly high off the bed.

But sounds like an interesting way to keep both sides of the bunk in and pour in a screed to bring the level up.

We've got a thin bed of straw in the cubicles at the moment to encourage them.. and we've taken the other straw out so it's a choice of cubicle or concrete, more or less... with the exception of one extremely well behaved girl who goes straight to a cubicle the rest prefer to stand around all night giving me evil looks..

Don't want to spend too much time or money on it, as it will be subsumed into a much larger shed - still at the "magpie" stage making plans but my guess is that we might keep this building as part of the new structure, putting a feed passage between them (ie. take out one side of this one) and either have a few smaller cubicles for heifers, pens etc. on the old side.

Might raise the roof a little at the same time as ventilation less than ideal and tractor access impossible, at least in the depths of the existing shed..

freedominacup

yellow50HX wrote: »

put in a small ramp at the front of the passage to allow the scraper to get back to yard level. The cows are used to sitting on a straw bed so that is why they wont go into the cubicles. The idea of the mats would be a good idea as you can reuse them after wards.

What is your long term plan. There is no point spendign a lot of time and money for 1 year. Do you intend on reusing this shed or is going to be flattened and a new one built?

My advice to anyone building a new shed is to get out a few big sheets of paper and start drawing out your ideas. see how it would look with gates and most imporatly try to visualise how the animals will move around. How you can seprate them, draft them, feed them, and how you can get a tractor in to clean it or to lift out a cow. Be a magpie and go to differnt peoples sheds and steal teh good ideas for your self. Take lots of photos and pick their brains. If you plan it well you can do a great job from teh start. its always a pain in the arse to go back afterwards

More like it's virtually impossible and horrendously expensive to go back afterwards.

kowtow

freedominacup wrote: »

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More like it's virtually impossible and horrendously expensive to go back afterwards.

Actually that's one of the reasons for trying to knock a year out of this one, gives us more time to figure out what we are doing system-wise and make plans for a structure which really suits it.

I've rushed in before to knocking and rebuilding and regretted it at leisure..

grazeaway

kowtow wrote: »

Hmm.. hadn't thought about a herringbone... in fact I'm not sure I've ever seen cubicles in a herringbone although I can't see why it wouldn't work. Any danger of cows trying to go forward and crashing across the cubicles rather than backing out?

These are the old fashioned fixed cubicles, no neck rail, stanchions fore and aft.. they aren't particularly high off the bed.

But sounds like an interesting way to keep both sides of the bunk in and pour in a screed to bring the level up.

We've got a thin bed of straw in the cubicles at the moment to encourage them.. and we've taken the other straw out so it's a choice of cubicle or concrete, more or less... with the exception of one extremely well behaved girl who goes straight to a cubicle the rest prefer to stand around all night giving me evil looks..

Don't want to spend too much time or money on it, as it will be subsumed into a much larger shed - still at the "magpie" stage making plans but my guess is that we might keep this building as part of the new structure, putting a feed passage between them (ie. take out one side of this one) and either have a few smaller cubicles for heifers, pens etc. on the old side.

Might raise the roof a little at the same time as ventilation less than ideal and tractor access impossible, at least in the depths of the existing shed..

They will eventually sit in them the cubicles, as you said before it was a traw bed ist so that waht they are used to. Next winter I would take the straw out completly. We have ordianrly concrete cubilces from the dairy days. We actually ledt the dust and diry built up on them from the years of the cows going in and out. It actully forms a layer that keeps it dry and insualtes from the cold concrete they seem happy with, and sprinkle disenfectant dust on them every few days. All they need is a bit of training. We have yearlings in one shed this spring and they will sit into the cubicles no bother.

I reckon it'll be a waste to knock or flatten the old shed. Rather then taking out the sections in it leave them there. Depending on where the new shed is going you could incoprate it into the new structure. This could then be used for heifers or other stock leaving the new shed for the dairy cows.

you could also just use the area out side the existing shed as an open feed area and use a small tractor to scrape down the cubicle shed and feed passge once a day.

not knwoing what your shed and yard looks like its hard to offer solid advice but heres a quick sketch.

kowtow

Thanks grazeaway for the sketch ... will study it, will also see if I can find a layout plan for the yard which shows the shed in relation to the parlour and slurry tank but for the moment I did find this picture of the interior (before the cattle went back in...)


IMG_1710.jpg by

grazeaway

kowtow wrote: »

Thanks grazeaway for the sketch ... will study it, will also see if I can find a layout plan for the yard which shows the shed in relation to the parlour and slurry tank but for the moment I did find this picture of the interior (before the cattle went back in...)


IMG_1710.jpg by

how many cows are you talking about for this year? if you have the space in the yard in front of the shed then you can turn this into a feed area. Get a few old H irons and stick them into the ground to form a pen. you can then hang gates off these to enclose the area and put a feed barrier across the front. While this would be an open area it'll be ok for a year. Does the scraper scrap to a sump or was it just straight out to a yard? If the sump is still there then that's ideal as you can use a small tractor (i assume you have one as you said you scraped out the passage) already) to scrape out the cubicle shed and the feed passage once a day into this and it can flow to the tank. If not have you enough room to scrape out one side of the feed area and over to the tank?

Alternatily you coul dbuild it along the long side of the shed and knock through the walls to give the cows access in and out of of the shed.

When your finished with the old shed you can take off the gates, and barriers and dig up the H irons to use somewhere else.

Make sure you knock out some blocks up high to get ventailation through the shed.

kowtow

grazeaway wrote: »

...how many cows are you talking about for this year? if you have the space in the yard in front of the shed ..

Actually that's pretty much what we are doing at the moment - will only have a dozen & calves this year & next so they have quite a big chunk of open yard. At the moment we use an electric fence with a round feeder in the middle & troughs...

The scraper did scrape all the way across the yard to the slurry tank in the past.. the original old boy who farmed here had only horses, no machinery, so he had a setup quite similar, except I gather they fed direct on the walled clamp which runs beside the shed - not sure how this tied in with the scraper..

Unfortunately the occupant prior to me took the scraper saddle, so although the ram works we'll have to find a replacement for that as well as a couple of corroded lengths... so believe it or not we scrape it by hand at the moment, although we put a digger blade across it when there is straw built up (and obviously to pull it all out at the weekend!).. but will get hold of a bobcat or small tractor before next winter in any event..

grazeaway

kowtow wrote: »

Actually that's pretty much what we are doing at the moment - will only have a dozen & calves this year & next so they have quite a big chunk of open yard. At the moment we use an electric fence with a round feeder in the middle & troughs...

The scraper did scrape all the way across the yard to the slurry tank in the past.. the original old boy who farmed here had only horses, no machinery, so he had a setup quite similar, except I gather they fed direct on the walled clamp which runs beside the shed - not sure how this tied in with the scraper..

Unfortunately the occupant prior to me took the scraper saddle, so although the ram works we'll have to find a replacement for that as well as a couple of corroded lengths... so believe it or not we scrape it by hand at the moment, although we put a digger blade across it when there is straw built up (and obviously to pull it all out at the weekend!).. but will get hold of a bobcat or small tractor before next winter in any event..

electric fence and round feeders are pain in the arse, epically in a yard but are good for a quick fix for a few days. If your planning something longer term then your right to get something a bit better. If you planning on raising the passage floor and getting a tractor and scraper then your better off taking the old one out anyway (you might get something back if you sell for parts).

Are you planning on using the silage slab or will it just be used for storage bales? I'd be very wary about putting silage back into old pits as many were built with out reinforcing and the extra weight of loaders and precision chop silage can cause them to collapse. This could actually be a good place to make your feed passage if it is wide enough. Turn this into a feed passage and knock a hole back into the cubicle house. The wall of the slab would provide some extra shelter and there would be loads of room for feeding. You can then lock the cows in or out of the cubicle house and/or feed area for when you want to clean it out and scrape across the yard to the tank. You could then use the other end of the shed as a calving pen and calf area. Might actually be an idea to knock a hole in the other end of the passage way to provide access at both sides.

I forgot to ask where your crush and parlour is in relation to the shed as you need easy access for moving the cows in a out.

How many cows were you planning on ending up with? I assume your going to build a brand new cow shed and incorporate the parlour into it. might be best to leave the old one for replacement heifers and calves.

Timmaay

kowtow wrote: »

A At the moment we use an electric fence with a round feeder in the middle & troughs...

Our 2nd yard has housed the replacement heifers in a very similar arrangement for the past 20yrs or so. Probably going to put in a slatted tank this year as slurry storage is lacking, will go with a feeding passage while I'm at the job, but in fairness alot can be said for the electric fence and round feeder for low cost and flexibility, and if you got on ok this year then it certainly should be an option for next winter also if you are planning on changing anyways. What I'd say is a well enough laid out electric fence system and ring feeder will most certainly be better than a poorly designed feeding passage, and very often temporary jobs can be just that 2bh.

kowtow

grazeaway wrote: »

...
Are you planning on using the silage slab or will it just be used for storage bales? .. might actually be an idea to knock a hole in the other end of the passage way to provide access at both sides.

I forgot to ask where your crush and parlour is in relation to the shed as you need easy access for moving the cows in a out.

How many cows were you planning on ending up with? I assume your going to build a brand new cow shed and incorporate the parlour into it. might be best to leave the old one for replacement heifers and calves.

Plan at the moment, tentatively, would be to build a larger structure over the silage clamp and the existing shed, incorporating a feed passage. We're not planning on clamping anything so there are better places on the farm to store bales. We might also extend a wing "forwards" of the existing cubicle shed and put slats down over the current slurry tank... found an old photo from last year which gives an idea of the area. The current cubicle shed is at the left of the photo... and the existing parlour are to the left of that again, out of the photo, with collecting yard etc - we're planning to keep as much of that as possible..

We're only planning on milking a small herd, 24 or 36 initially primarily for cheese .. at least for the next few years, just have to find a plan that sorts the whole yard out in due course...

grazeaway

kowtow wrote: »

Plan at the moment, tentatively, would be to build a larger structure over the silage clamp and the existing shed, incorporating a feed passage. We're not planning on clamping anything so there are better places on the farm to store bales. We might also extend a wing "forwards" of the existing cubicle shed and put slats down over the current slurry tank... found an old photo from last year which gives an idea of the area. The current cubicle shed is at the left of the photo... and the existing parlour are to the left of that again, out of the photo, with collecting yard etc - we're planning to keep as much of that as possible..

We're only planning on milking a small herd, 24 or 36 initially primarily for cheese .. at least for the next few years, just have to find a plan that sorts the whole yard out in due course...

The old yard is sloping and with old concrete you'll end up having to dig it up. I wouldn't go and put slats over an old tank like that. I think'll be better off putting in a brand new shed on the field next door. you'll end up doing the same amuont of work digging a leveling but its a lot more easier to do it from a green field site. Also its means you can still use the old yard for storage for fodder and as clean place for moving around and working in.

I'm also thinking from the waste management side. Most of the new sheds around the country were built with grants to conform with the required standards so you will proably have to get up the these stanards anyway for animal watse, soiled water and dairy washings.

If you have the space build on a green feild area rather tehn builing over the existing sheds. They may be useful again for something else.

If you have the room can you build onto the othe rside of teh parlour? If this is in good enough conditon to reuse then you could build a new cubicle house with a slatted tankt o hold all your slurry and washings. Once its roofed there is no soiled water to worry about.

I think you can build a shed of up to 200sqm without planning permission. Thats a decent size and woul de more then enough to cover a new parkour, dairy and cubile house with feeding passage.

I know it all adds to you costs but your current yard might not be up to the requirednt standard and you could get caught out if there was any pollution. There have been some very good ones on the journo recently so if you have a look through the archive there may be a few ideas and an idea of costs.

kowtow

grazeaway wrote: »

I think'll be better off putting in a brand new shed on the field next door... I think you can build a shed of up to 200sqm without planning permission. Thats a decent size and woul de more then enough to cover a new parkour, dairy and cubile house with feeding passage.

You could be right - we've considered one or two other sites as well, with a view to tearing that yard up when we're done and getting the view back off the cows!

The more I look at the issues the more I'm inclined to try and make do with what we have for at least the year, there are a legion of other issues to solve around here before we get properly up and running.

The short term options seem to be either (1) diagonal cubicles on both sides, feed outside as at present or (2) extend bunk one side, pour screed, take out the bunk on one side of the shed and turn it into the standing area for a new feed barrier, knocking out some sections of wall and perhaps putting in a lean to / larger overhang. The standing area would have to be raised a little to preserve a channel for the scraper.

Has anyone experience of diagonal cubicles?

grazeaway

kowtow wrote: »

You could be right - we've considered one or two other sites as well, with a view to tearing that yard up when we're done and getting the view back off the cows!

The more I look at the issues the more I'm inclined to try and make do with what we have for at least the year, there are a legion of other issues to solve around here before we get properly up and running.

The short term options seem to be either (1) diagonal cubicles on both sides, feed outside as at present or (2) extend bunk one side, pour screed, take out the bunk on one side of the shed and turn it into the standing area for a new feed barrier, knocking out some sections of wall and perhaps putting in a lean to / larger overhang. The standing area would have to be raised a little to preserve a channel for the scraper.

Has anyone experience of diagonal cubicles?

Knocking out the cubicles on one side to make a feed area might not be that easy. The step could make it difficult at the feed area. Put ina lean to outside the shed and use it to cover your feed area. You could use the base outside as the floor of the feed passage. That way you don't need to spend lots of money demolishing the inside. I think you are on the right path though

grazeaway

kowtow hows the yard planning going?

kowtow

grazeaway wrote: »

kowtow hows the yard planning going?

slowly!

Just as the weather turns nice I seem to have a never-ending load of work to do in the office!

But I've asked my 12 yo to produce me a plan in sketchup - which should be a starting point.

My neighbours all reckon that we can afford to make the central scraper passage a good bit narrower (it's 2.70 at the moment) - if we took it down to around 2m we'd have an extra 35cm giving cubicles of 2.25-2.30 on each side. We could raise the passage a bit at the same time to make the step more gentle.

Bear in mind that all cubicles face a wall in this design. Would making them a little wider or changing to Dutch Comfort or the new plastic ones help at all?

Be interested in peoples thoughts.

grazeaway

kowtow wrote: »

slowly!

Just as the weather turns nice I seem to have a never-ending load of work to do in the office!

But I've asked my 12 yo to produce me a plan in sketchup - which should be a starting point.

My neighbours all reckon that we can afford to make the central scraper passage a good bit narrower (it's 2.70 at the moment) - if we took it down to around 2m we'd have an extra 35cm giving cubicles of 2.25-2.30 on each side. We could raise the passage a bit at the same time to make the step more gentle.

Bear in mind that all cubicles face a wall in this design. Would making them a little wider or changing to Dutch Comfort or the new plastic ones help at all?

Be interested in peoples thoughts.

depends on the size of your cows. id do like the idea of the plastic ones and they are flexibale enough for difference sized cows.

if you make the passage narrower just be aware that you wont be able to get a tractor in in case a cow goes down or soemthing. That said i know a lad that has a mini loader for his yard work. cleans out the sheds and passaged ways and is still able to lift silage bales and so on.

kowtow

grazeaway wrote: »

depends on the size of your cows. id do like the idea of the plastic ones and they are flexibale enough for difference sized cows.

if you make the passage narrower just be aware that you wont be able to get a tractor in in case a cow goes down or soemthing. That said i know a lad that has a mini loader for his yard work. cleans out the sheds and passaged ways and is still able to lift silage bales and so on.

Can't get a tractor in at the moment, as the roof is too low - found this out to our cost this year with a down cow when we had it straw bedded.

But we've got a slightly radical plan in mind to farm this place with a quad and a bobcat, buying in meadows from outside for silage. If that's what we end up doing then a bobcat might be just the job.

Unfortunately smaller cows don't seem to be in the plan at the moment - either FR or MO & FR...

Going to measure my neighbours various cubicles and passages later on to put an exact figure on it.

What worries me is risk of accident from cows backing out and into the cubicle behind..