Was this common practice in Ireland?

Heydeldel

I hope I'm in the right forum for this.

I was recently chatting to an older relative who told me in the 70s, the priest, once a year, used to read out who gave what to the local parish/ church funds.


Did this really happen and was it meant as a kind of naming and shaming or what was the purpose of it?

Any info is appreciated. I find it interesting in a social history kind of way.

Cheers boardies.

who the fug

In cobh in the sixties they read your name out every Sunday till you paid up , me mother was morto by all accounts but my Father was a right bolshy bastard and left the priest to read away

Heydeldel

haha fair play to your Da. I'm in my 20s and can't imagine this happening.

Was there a set amount all had to pay?

Was it a once off payment?

When did the practice stop?

I tried googling it and found nothing.

Jawgap

Yep - we had a parish priest who used to read out the list of who gave what each week. Happened up until the mid-1980s.

Susie120704

Yep. My grandfather got a firm reading out for giving the same amount two years in a row. Apparently the priest felt a pay rise was in order. My grandfather moved parishes in disgust

robp

Heydeldel wrote: »

I hope I'm in the right forum for this.

I was recently chatting to an older relative who told me in the 70s, the priest, once a year, used to read out who gave what to the local parish/ church funds.

Did this really happen and was it meant as a kind of naming and shaming or what was the purpose of it?

Any info is appreciated. I find it interesting in a social history kind of way.

Cheers boardies.

I am too young to remember it happening in Ireland but I have seen it occurring aboard. Its not unique to Ireland. I think its actually about simple acknowledgement of a donation and calling it shaming is incorrect. It wasn't a set amount as it is a donation and not a tax. Church taxes occur in central Europe but not Ireland.

Manach

Personally I cannot remember it happening, but then again we were on the poor side, more reliable on the basic but effective services that the Church provided.

im invisible

not so much the weekly collection, but the 'summer dues' (whatever that was, yearly collection) was read out in my parish untill i stopped going about 12 years ago, probably still is...

20 pound seemed to be the norm, from what i remember, but i do remember a couple of '50 pounds' being read out, and once 'fifty pence'

corktina

locally here they send you a pack of envelopes so your donation can be anonymously.....they have a serial number though and it's always the same number we get.....they go STRAIGHT IN THE BIN

Heydeldel

Thanks, interesting stuff. I don't understand why a yearly payment was necessary seeing as there are two collections during each mass.

You'd think the Vatican hadn't a penny.

robp

Heydeldel wrote: »

Thanks, interesting stuff. I don't understand why a yearly payment was necessary seeing as there are two collections during each mass.

You'd think the Vatican hadn't a penny.

I don't recall two collections typically. One is the norm. It pays for the entire Irish catholic church from the living costs of priests to organisations like Trocaire and school funding. The Irish church is self financing at the diocese level and they don't receive money from Rome. Rome wouldn't even be in a position to do this as the actual budget of Rome would be minuscule compared to national budget of churches in many countries.

pjproby

I recall hearing the name of a local girl who had given birth outside marriage inferred from the pulpit on one occasion.
The same parish has had two priests named as pedophiles in later years.

belcampprisoner

dail members should start doing it

Snickers Man

I heard of a priest doing this at a relative's parish church in the Donegal Gaeltacht in the 1960s/1970s. But it wasn't for the weekly collection; it was for the annual dues which were always understood to be for the priest's remuneration anyway.

This was an envelope containing a voluntary contribution that was always supposed to be on a "from each according to their means" basis. But in this rural parish, the priest liked to publicise what each family was giving, just to encourage along those who might have had a guilty twinge.

My relative always insisted on sending his in anonymously. Given the size of the parish, people were able to work out if they wanted (the very idea!) who the few anonymous donors were. But I believe it caught on as a general practice, so gradually it became more difficult to find out who was giving what.

Emme

Some protestant churches still send around a circular with details of what people gave to the parish. I think this is unnecessary in this day and age.

Heydeldel

Thanks for all the replies. An interesting practice.

I just wanted to get a range of views.

Cheers.

Heydeldel

Heydeldel wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies. An interesting practice.

I just wanted to get a range of views.

Cheers.

It happened up until the mid 70's in rural areas. It was for the annual Priests dues. It was an awful thing to sit through. I remember squirming with embarrassment for the poor families who had nothing, scraping together £20.

owenc

They do that in presbyterian churches aswell as publishing a book. I dont think they do that in catholic churches, I have never seen that and the ones ive been to the donations are anonymous.

Latchy

I remember this old guy who ued to call at our door for the weekly '' church devotion payment '' and the pleasure I used to get from saying '' oh sorry , mum and dad aren't here at the moement '' but it wasn't that my parents didn't sometimes leave the envelope with the few shillings in , it was just that A - they weren't die hard catholics and B - they had more important things to deal with than the weekly revenue of the Catholic church funds and hindsight proves how clued in and right they were.

pedroeibar1

How factual are the comments above?
Since the 1960’s I’ve lived in several RC parishes in Dublin, Cork and Kerry and never encountered ‘naming and shaming’ over non-payment of Christmas and Easter Dues. When living in the US, the local church suggested an annual minimum amount per adult ($500) which supported the priests and church maintenance. I never lived in Germany, but there the tax authorities levy an additional 8 or 9% on the income tax amount paid and give it to the nominated churches.

AFAIK ‘naming’ in Ireland was uncommon beyond the 1800’s – I know of one row on a ‘naming’ incident in the late 1800’s in Tipperary (Moyne?) and the bishop intervened and put a stop to that practice but did not ask the priest to apologise (I’m away from my books for a couple of weeks, have to wait to check details).

Why not give a few quid to a church? Are you that mean? The ‘Dues’ are the funds on which a priest lives; how many of those who did not (or do not) contribute expected their local priest to come out in the middle of the night to administer a dying relative? How many more expected the priest to move his calendar to suit their wedding day or baptismal requirements?

Throughout history Churches always were supported by their communities, from ‘St. Peter’s Pence’ to Tithes and existed legally in Ireland right up to the disestablishment of the CoI in 1869. Parish support always existed, ‘Bridal’ derives from Bride-Ale, ale brewed by several and donated to the church for the wedding feast.

Using a ‘club’ analogy, would you expect to use (or be allowed to use) the club facilities (bar, changing rooms, etc) if your annual subscription was in arrears? What would Ben Dunne say to you if you rocked up to one of his gyms and your membership was unpaid?

pedroeibar1

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

How factual are the comments above?
Since the 1960’s I’ve lived in several RC parishes in Dublin, Cork and Kerry and never encountered ‘naming and shaming’ over non-payment of Christmas and Easter Dues. When living in the US, the local church suggested an annual minimum amount per adult ($500) which supported the priests and church maintenance. I never lived in Germany, but there the tax authorities levy an additional 8 or 9% on the income tax amount paid and give it to the nominated churches.

AFAIK ‘naming’ in Ireland was uncommon beyond the 1800’s – I know of one row on a ‘naming’ incident in the late 1800’s in Tipperary (Moyne?) and the bishop intervened and put a stop to that practice but did not ask the priest to apologise (I’m away from my books for a couple of weeks, have to wait to check details).

Why not give a few quid to a church? Are you that mean? The ‘Dues’ are the funds on which a priest lives; how many of those who did not (or do not) contribute expected their local priest to come out in the middle of the night to administer a dying relative? How many more expected the priest to move his calendar to suit their wedding day or baptismal requirements?

Throughout history Churches always were supported by their communities, from ‘St. Peter’s Pence’ to Tithes and existed legally in Ireland right up to the disestablishment of the CoI in 1869. Parish support always existed, ‘Bridal’ derives from Bride-Ale, ale brewed by several and donated to the church for the wedding feast.

Using a ‘club’ analogy, would you expect to use (or be allowed to use) the club facilities (bar, changing rooms, etc) if your annual subscription was in arrears? What would Ben Dunne say to you if you rocked up to one of his gyms and your membership was unpaid?

Believe me, it happened. It went like this: "Mr John Murphy, Ballygobackwards, £20, Mr Dick Murphy, Ballygoaway, £5" and so on. We were always amazed that the 'Big' farmers paid as much as the 'small' ones. It was a case of shaming people into paying. If memory serves me right, it went on until the late 1970's, if not early 80's

Max Power1

the parish priest out in suncroft did this a few years back. No more than 10 years ago.

This is the same priest that takes collections at weddings and funerals and drives a new suv.

Before we stopped going to mass we swiftly moved to a different church.

robp

Deleted User wrote: »

Believe me, it happened. It went like this: "Mr John Murphy, Ballygobackwards, £20, Mr Dick Murphy, Ballygoaway, £5" and so on. We were always amazed that the 'Big' farmers paid as much as the 'small' ones. It was a case of shaming people into paying. If memory serves me right, it went on until the late 1970's, if not early 80's

Its not as is we have to dig deep into memories of the 70s. I have seen it occur 3 years ago abroad and there was very little shaming going on. I also know of free newspapers who did this till 3 odd years ago and there was nothing subversive about it. I have no doubt that the odd manipulative priest or pastor might exploit it but its outlandish to interpret shaming as the fundamental intention. I wouldn't support the practise but I wouldn't agree with such revisionist attitudes.

Jolly Red Giant

Heydeldel wrote: »

Did this really happen

Yes it did

Heydeldel wrote: »

and was it meant as a kind of naming and shaming or what was the purpose of it?

Yes it was

And the priest wasn't shy about thumping the pulpit and telling parishoners that they should be paying 10% of their income to the church - a hark back to the days of the tithes.

The same parish priest used to drive around in the only sportscar in the town.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

How factual are the comments above?

You poor delusional fool

The problem with your assertion is that there are actually people on this forum who are witnesses to these antics by the church.

pedroeibar1

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Yes it did


Yes it was

And the priest wasn't shy about thumping the pulpit and telling parishoners that they should be paying 10% of their income to the church - a hark back to the days of the tithes.

The same parish priest used to drive around in the only sportscar in the town.


You poor delusional fool

The problem with your assertion is that there are actually people on this forum who are witnesses to these antics by the church.

What assertion? I did not make one, I asked a simple question; so far I have not been given any proof - there have been random comments like 'a few years ago .... or ...........I heard of a priest...........or....... a priest in Suncroft a few years back........or .... priest used to drive around in the only sportscar in the town......or ...drives a new suv.

Imprecise or puerile off-topic answers, rather like your own inane (and personally abusive) post.

FWIW I don't approve of any 'naming' practice, I never encountered it anywhere since the 1950's (not that I am a regular churchgoer) which is why I asked the questions. NOBODY has yet given an answer with evidence that would stand up (beyond the type of 'duirt bean liom etc.') Pathetic responses really; if you and several others feel that strongly about 'naming & shaming' and it it took place with the regularity you assert, surely you can at least provide a name, date, place. Basic evidential stuff, pass-level history, not the BS to date. :rolleyes:

robp

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Yes it was

Actually that is most unlikely. Acknowledgement is far plausible. Generally mannerly people thank people who donate.

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

And the priest wasn't shy about thumping the pulpit and telling parishoners that they should be paying 10% of their income to the church - a hark back to the days of the tithes.

The same parish priest used to drive around in the only sportscar in the town.

Which parish was that now?

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

You poor delusional fool

Lay off the abuse please.

knotknowbody

I've never heard it happen personally, but years ago my father told me about it happening many years ago, and about how the priest used to list people of similar stature and perceived wealth in the community together, and emphasise their sometimes wildly differing donations. It was a pretty shameful attempt at generating a kind of rivalry to give a bigger donation among the locals. The listing of donations happened a couple of time a year usually the week after some offerings or other were due, the amount each family gave was called out to the entire congregation. We are from a pretty rural parish and this would have been in the 70's my father seen it.

@pedroeibar1

Obviously my post is just another someone said kind of post, but at this time it is the only kind of evidence there will be, it stopped in my parish before my time over 35 years ago, so eyewitness evidence from people who remember it is all there will be at this stage, I've heard it enough from different sources to be pretty convinced it happened until relatively recently.

jonniebgood1

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

You poor delusional fool

Any more of this will lead to a ban.

Moderator.

pedroeibar1

knotknowbody wrote: »

@pedroeibar1

Obviously my post is just another someone said kind of post, but at this time it is the only kind of evidence there will be, it stopped in my parish before my time over 35 years ago, so eyewitness evidence from people who remember it is all there will be at this stage, I've heard it enough from different sources to be pretty convinced it happened until relatively recently.

I know it happened, I've already said that. My question is WHEN did it stop? Some posters say it was going on until recently, but nobody had proffered basic evidence. Maybe it happened as recently as you say (35 yrs ago) but I do not believe it did with regularity. I'm not talking about being 'denounced' from the pulpit, which happened until relatively recently, - it was done (at a Ballina mass) to Mary Robinson because she supported contraception back in the late 60's /early '70's).

Even the Jolly Red Giant in his post ignored (and continues to ignore) my question, which is amusing, given his own pontifical comment elsewhere '(History) ....... is about analysing and questioning - forming an opinion and backing it up with evidence. You will be asked questions and you answer them by giving your opinion and backing it up with evidence.' So much for those opinions.....:D:D

Dob73

Yes it happened. In our parish up to 1994, when the old parish priest retired. He read the names addresses and amount donated over two Sundays. He did say in his previous parish that it was done in a book that could be read in the front of the church and people from outside the parish often visited to check it out. However this priest was a very humble and pious man who never took holidays or bought new cars and was always available to the parishioners.
Unfortunately organisations can't run on fresh air and guff about riches of the church are a bit of nonsense. Buildings and art works are really communal property that have passed down through the generations for our benefit and I don't begrudge the church them.

byhookorbycrook

Yes it happened, my mother often speaks of it, both in her home parish in Waterford and then in Cork up to the mid-seventies.

Heydeldel

I have the info I was looking for.

It was just a curiosity thing really. I was thinking about using it as a detail in a story.

Thanks for all the replies.

Mods can close thread if they wish.

nuac

On a recent visit to Germany I was told that the church contribution was 10% of your tax payments.

Many formally resigning from their churches over this

I recall that in Northern Ireland up to the sixties that cash contributions were made to the church by those attending mass. The amounts of contributions were called out by the priest

Richard

nuac wrote: »

On a recent visit to Germany I was told that the church contribution was 10% of your tax payments.

Many formally resigning from their churches over this

I recall that in Northern Ireland up to the sixties that cash contributions were made to the church by those attending mass. The amounts of contributions were called out by the priest

Some churches in NI used to publish all the contributions by members along with ther home addresses. I imagine this practice has stopped due to data protection legislation.

But in some Scandinavian countries, the government collects church taxes and pass them on to the church of which you're a member. I remember hearing that churches could refuse to do funerals if you weren't paid up!

pedroeibar1

nuac wrote: »

On a recent visit to Germany I was told that the church contribution was 10% of your tax payments.

Many formally resigning from their churches over this

I recall that in Northern Ireland up to the sixties that cash contributions were made to the church by those attending mass. The amounts of contributions were called out by the priest

The rate depends on where you live and 10% of tax paid is at the upper end (9% I think is tops). There is an interesting bit about it on public Reuters here

I recall in Dublin in the 60's that the priest would say 'the collection last Sunday for ( x - fill in whatever collection was for) amounted to £xSyDz but names were never mentioned. At the weekend I asked the oldest Catholic person I know (93 yrs) if she recalled it and was told she'd heard of it being done but never experienced it in her lifetime in Cork or Dublin). I'm sur O'Shea will have something about it in his book and I will be able to check it later in the week.

Coles

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Throughout history Churches always were supported by their communities, from ‘St. Peter’s Pence’ to Tithes and existed legally in Ireland right up to the disestablishment of the CoI in 1869. Parish support always existed, ‘Bridal’ derives from Bride-Ale, ale brewed by several and donated to the church for the wedding feast.

Wrong, and wrong again.

Tithes were imposed on the entire population regardless of whether they were members of the Church of Ireland faith or not (the vast majority weren't). Tithes were simply a form of taxation, but the entire proceeds went to a minority Church.

Bride-ale was not donated to the Church for the wedding feast. Nothing of the sort. It was merely the ale brewed for the feast. It had nothing to do with the Church. Perhaps you are confusing it with the English tradition of Church-Ale or Parish-Ale? A community celebration often used to raise funds for the Church.

My mother told me the story of the parish priest insisting that she stand at the alter holding a collection basket during the funeral mass for her brother who had died in a motorcycle accident. The proceeds were for the Church.

robp

Coles wrote: »

Wrong, and wrong again.

Tithes were imposed on the entire population regardless of whether they were members of the Church of Ireland faith or not (the vast majority weren't). Tithes were simply a form of taxation, but the entire proceeds went to a minority Church.

Your generalising specific aspects of the Irish system 18th & 19th cen which isn't correct. Tithes were a very widespread system and like what exists now in Germany but generally it is a church tax. Irish church of Ireland set-up was atypical.

Coles wrote: »

My mother told me the story of the parish priest insisting that she stand at the alter holding a collection basket during the funeral mass for her brother who had died in a motorcycle accident. The proceeds were for the Church.

To me that just sounds just like any and every mass. the basket is passed around and then left at the alter.

gobnaitolunacy

Slightly different angle, but (mild) pressure is still put on people to have 'stations' in the house in rural areas.

Elderly people are giving them up, as they can't cope with all the preparations/influx of visitors and non-farming households simply aren't bothering in most cases. Don't know if there's a fee involved, perhaps the older priests are trying to keep the practice from dying out.

Coles

robp wrote: »

Your generalising specific aspects of the Irish system 18th & 19th cen which isn't correct.

I'm not sure what your point is or what specific thing you feel is incorrect.

To me that just sounds just like any and every mass. the basket is passed around and then left at the alter.

A grieving relative was made stand at the alter so that the attendees of the mass would have no alternative than to show their respect for the deceased by offering money to the Church. Of course the total donations were then revealed at the following mass. It was an inhuman thing to do to a grieving family.

who the fug

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Slightly different angle, but (mild) pressure is still put on people to have 'stations' in the house in rural areas.

Elderly people are giving them up, as they can't cope with all the preparations/influx of visitors and non-farming households simply aren't bothering in most cases. Don't know if there's a fee involved, perhaps the older priests are trying to keep the practice from dying out.

Fee was called petrol money, and your name was called out at every station and you placed an envelope on the table.

No naming and shaming that I can recall

nuac

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Slightly different angle, but (mild) pressure is still put on people to have 'stations' in the house in rural areas.

Elderly people are giving them up, as they can't cope with all the preparations/influx of visitors and non-farming households simply aren't bothering in most cases. Don't know if there's a fee involved, perhaps the older priests are trying to keep the practice from dying out.

Many areas hold stations. Mass held in house, breakfast laid on. some parishes seek to keep the breakfast to a cup of tea and toast. Housowner might give the priest a donation

In the dim distant and innocent past when I was a mass server, assignments to a station mass were prized. Good tips

Zebra3

Dob73 wrote: »

Unfortunately organisations can't run on fresh air and guff about riches of the church are a bit of nonsense.

Far from it.

chrispin

I personaly remember there was a small table at the back of the church during a funeral for donations for the priest.This went on for years until about 1970. At one particular funeral of a man who left behind a widow and a large young family.One of the parisioners collected all the money bar a £5 note and handed it to the widow. That put a stop to that practice in my parish.

who the fug

nuac wrote: »

In the dim distant and innocent past when I was a mass server, assignments to a station mass were prized. Good tips

And don't forget the 1/2 day off school

Frankie Lee

I asked my father about this and it was common in our parish up until well into the 80's and maybe early 90's. The priest would read out a list of what people gave and would stop and pause before any larger donations from wealthy farmers to emphasise their generosity.

Hedgemeister

I remember those collections in the 1950s and 60s where the Priest read the collection takings from the altar by Townslands, then by individual households whithin that townsland. You could hear a mouse breathe in the church while the names and relevant amounts given were being read out.
The collections were the Easter Dues, and the annual Priest's Housekeeper Collection.
The clergy were very clever in that they pitted townsland against townsland, farmer against farmer, labourer's family against labourer's family, as the 'faithful' vied to outdo their neighbor in the generosity game.
My poor auld Ma used to feel that her 5 shillings and sixpence was never enough, but t'was a lot of money back then.
Yes, the Clergy knew enough to pit people against each other for their own financial gain, a ploy our recent Government/s are practicing nowadays.

criostoir o bradaigh

In the 60s and 70s a list of all contributors to the major collections (Christmas,Easter etc) was read from the altar at ea mass.In our mass station area I can recall Canon Mahon as follows, X Y and Z £1,b 10 shillings (old pre 1970 money) not good enough!