Passengers in a Camper

corktina

If you own a camper van with 4 or more berths, I assume you can only carry as many people as you have proper seats and seat belts for. Any thoughts?

Henry Ford III

I'd hope so.

corktina

well i wonder how many people would carry more than this given it's a requirement to have seats fixed in the living area but ,afaik not a requirement for them to have belts. Just interested.

kelbal

Not sure corktina. Ours has sleeping space for 6, but possible seating for 8 - 6 in the living section, and the 2 in the cab. If there's seatbelts throughout, am I allowed transport 8?

Layinghen

Read the passenger risk section of your insurance Policy (not the insurance certificate). This will state whether passenger cover is unlimited or if it is confined to a certain number of people.

corktina

interesting, would you eventually need a minibus license?

corktina

Layinghen wrote: »

Read the passenger risk section of your insurance Policy (not the insurance certificate). This will state whether passenger cover is unlimited or if it is confined to a certain number of people.

but what about seat belts?

btb

looked into this a few years ago and the law was supposed to change to have the requirement for a seatbelt for each passenger. dont know if it happened, that was around 2008/9.

corktina

Logically there must be a distinction between the automotive type seats up front and the ordinary seats in the living area, which would make it illegal to carry passengers in the second type. I guess it's just one of those grey areas that hasn't been defined.
Possibly it would be treated in the same way as would carrying passengers in the back of a van or in a car boot.

Irishgoatman

Have a look at your registration cert. and see what that says.

The odd thing is that my 2 beth camper is shown on the cert.as having 4 seats!. There are just 2 seats in the cab and no access from cab into camper.

I've not bothered to get it changed as I will never be wanting to carry more than 1 passenger anyway, but I've no idea how it came to be wrong.

niloc1951

It depends on the age of the motorhome.
Newer ones have Certificates of Conformity and Homologation which define the number of 'travel seats' each of which must have a seatbelt.
Older models may not have such certification and unbelted seats may be used legally (think in terms of a bench seat Cortina, no belts and three across the front, it's not against the law now because it wasn't against the law when the vehicle was built)

However,
The number quoted on the RF101 is taken as the 'legal' number by insurance companies, exceed this and you could find yourself with invalid insurance.
BTW, if you feel the number is wrong you should get it sorted out.

Also,
There is the issue of weight. All vehicles have a GVW, lots of motorhomes with a GVW of 3,500kg could have a 'kerb weight' in the region of 3,000kg, after loading up holiday gear there won't be a lot left over for passengers, certainly not six adults averaging 80kg each.

Irishgoatman

niloc1951 wrote: »

BTW, if you feel the number is wrong you should get it sorted out.

Why?.
I, for example, would never carry more than myself plus one, and I believe that most people would use common sense.

Also I would hope that the powers that be wouldn't alter the cert. without an inspection, and that would be hassle for no return.

corktina

niloc1951 wrote: »

It depends on the age of the motorhome.
Newer ones have Certificates of Conformity and Homologation which define the number of 'travel seats' each of which must have a seatbelt.
Older models may not have such certification and unbelted seats may be used legally (think in terms of a bench seat Cortina, no belts and three across the front, it's not against the law now because it wasn't against the law when the vehicle was built)

However,
The number quoted on the RF101 is taken as the 'legal' number by insurance companies, exceed this and you could find yourself with invalid insurance.
BTW, if you feel the number is wrong you should get it sorted out.

Also,
There is the issue of weight. All vehicles have a GVW, lots of motorhomes with a GVW of 3,500kg could have a 'kerb weight' in the region of 3,000kg, after loading up holiday gear there won't be a lot left over for passengers, certainly not six adults averaging 80kg each.

i wonder where the dividing line betweeen NEWER and OLDER is

niloc1951

Irishgoatman wrote: »

niloc1951 wrote: »

BTW, if you feel the number is wrong you should get it sorted out.

Why?.
I, for example, would never carry more than myself plus one, and I believe that most people would use common sense.

Also I would hope that the powers that be wouldn't alter the cert. without an inspection, and that would be hassle for no return.

I didn't suggest that the cert could be corrected 'if wrong' without supporting documentation.

When things go wrong common sense is the first thing that leaves the scene to be replaced by law.
If records show, for example, two travel seats and there were four which were occupied, immediately the accusation that more passengers than are allowed were being carried and the next thing to exit the scene is the insurance company.

niloc1951

corktina wrote: »

i wonder where the dividing line betweeen NEWER and OLDER is

It would be when EU/National regulations came into force requiring motorhome manufacturers to nominate seats as 'travel seats' (that's seats for use by passengers when the vehicle is on the road as opposed to seats to be used exclusively for habitation when the vehicle is stationary)
Such 'travel' seats would be part of the vehicle specifications and fitted with seatbelts. They should also carry a sticker indicating their status as a travel seat, often an pictogram of a person sitting on a seat wearing a seatbelt, but over time these stickers can 'disappear'.

Before the regulations came into force, how many passengers and where they sat was a matter for the insurance company.
The only real regulation was if more than eight passengers were being carried a mini-bus driving licence was required.

corktina

my camper is a 1987, will that be a an older vehicle do you think?

Irishgoatman

The point I was making earlier is that my cert. shows, under S1, 4 seats when there are only 2 seats in the vehicle apart from the bench seats which convert into 2 single or 1 double bed, so showing 4 on cert. is crazy.

In my view a camper should have a corresponding number of seats to the number of beds/bunks. Whether this is the case or not I don't know but it would make sense.

corktina, yes I would say yours comes under "older" as does mine which is 1986.:D

niloc1951

Irishgoatman wrote: »

The point I was making earlier is that my cert. shows, under S1, 4 seats when there are only 2 seats in the vehicle apart from the bench seats which convert into 2 single or 1 double bed, so showing 4 on cert. is crazy.

In my view a camper should have a corresponding number of seats to the number of beds/bunks. Whether this is the case or not I don't know but it would make sense.

corktina, yes I would say yours comes under "older" as does mine which is 1986.:D

I know it sounds ridiculous but it's true, there are many motorhomes on the market which have more sleeping berths than authorised travel seats.

The issue is discussed HERE, the discussion also includes reference to the 'when' which is of interest to corktina

belcampprisoner

if they have a seat belt they can travel

corktina

with an old car, you only need to wear seat belts if they were fitted as original equipment or subsequently. If not fitted, you are good to go. Same with a camper b the looks but the seats don't seem suitable to me

Irishgoatman

Having looked at the links that niloc posted, I think that the real answer is to check with your insurance Co.

It really does look to me as though there are too many gray areas.

For me? no problem, but for others do some serious checking.

I was told (by a trucker....not by an authority) that sleeping passengers do not require seat belts as they are lying town. This is normal amongst truck drivers who take turns in a one truck two driver scenario.

Irishgoatman

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I was told (by a trucker....not by an authority) that sleeping passengers do not require seat belts as they are lying town. This is normal amongst truck drivers who take turns in a one truck two driver scenario.

Excellent point Sir.

When I drove coaches for a while, one of the coaches had a sleeping compartment for the second driver on long hauls.

Age is affecting my memory as I once used it on a continental trip. Just never associated it with campers as there was a fold down "shotgun" seat in the coach for when he/she wasn't sleeping, so that's where the problem could still come in.

Irishgoatman

Problem could be solved of course by the passengers without seats staying in bed whilst travelling:D.

niloc1951

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Problem could be solved of course by the passengers without seats staying in bed whilst travelling:D.

Something not unknown to happen

Irishgoatman

All those with hangovers please go to bed and leave me alone. Yes I do know where I'm going!:D

Supergurrier

Seatbelt on the loo also ?