Electronic Pad Signing at the Department of Social Protection?

Electronic Writer

Recently the Department of Social Protection introduced with no notice electronic pad signature recognition for identity confirmation for my monthly signing at the local office in Dublin. Needless to say, I don't like surprises and my natural reaction was to block this unannounced introduction. I refused to sign electronically and requested a normal paper signing which was refused. I was told that if I didn't comply my claim would be stopped.

Does the Department of Social Protection have the power to compel a person to sign electronically without that persons consent?

7ofBrian

Just ****ing sign it ye spa! What are you hoping to achieve?

Electronic Writer

7ofBrian wrote: »

Just ****ing sign it ye spa! What are you hoping to achieve?

I'm hoping to have an informed view from a person who knows the law, not a slagging match, I'm not a spa.

7ofBrian

Electronic Writer wrote: »

I'm hoping to have an informed view from a person who knows the law, not a slagging match, I'm not a spa.

Apologies. I don't mean to go on the attack but this mentality just pisses me off! What difference does it make to you whether you sign digitally or on a piece of paper? The department of social protection are trying to bring down recycling costs and maybe save a few trees by using this method. At the end of the day you will still get your €188.

oppenheimer1

Electronic Writer wrote: »

I'm hoping to have an informed view from a person who knows the law, not a slagging match, I'm not a spa.

So why did you pick the TCD forum to post this in?

Electronic Writer

7ofBrian wrote: »

Just ****ing sign it ye spa! What are you hoping to achieve?

I'd like to know if it was lawful from a Social Welfare law perspective.

passive

I don't think anybody is going able to provide advice in a way more fitting to your thread than the previous poster... or the first response above. I'm undecided.

Either way, the only course of action is to do without the payment permanently as an act of defiance. That will show them!

jimmycrackcorm

John Bitcoin Galt wrote: »

Hi,

It's always heartening to see people fighting back against oppression and injustice. The replies in this thread are depressing, it seems people are always to ready to crumble under government coercion at the slightest threat. Well I say to them "not in my name!".

This attempt to bring in electronic surveillance into our everyday lives is pernicious and tenacious. Remember that we are the front line, and you are doing your duty as a patriot and a citizen to stand against this at all costs. Privacy is at steak here!!

The next time you need to sign up say the following. (If they claim they do not understand you ask to speak to a superior. This always works. They may pretend not to understand you at first but in reality they have encountered this resistance many times before and they do not have a legal leg to stand on.)

I, Rand of the family Paul, (replace 'Rand Paul' with your own name obviously) hereinafter known as Rand: Paul (you can say this out loud but if you write, remember the colon, it is extremely impotent), a flesh and blood human being in possession of a sovereign and individual spirit, a living soul, do hereby make Oath and state the following is My Truth and My Law:

Whereas it is my understanding that it is the intent of the corporation known as the sovereign nation of Ireland intends to extent, by means of an electronic parchment, and in contradiction of international law, the contract it claims it holds with the person known as Rand Paul of bondage and involuntary servitude in the electronic domain.

Whereas it is my understanding a Freeman-on-the-land remains entirely and solely under Common Law jurisdiction, and I refuse to sign this electronic parchment using the name of my corporation under maritime law, to receive those funds which are unlawfully withheld from me in direct contradiction to international law by the corporation known as the republic of Ireland and the fictional and unlawful entity known as the Department of Social Welfare.

Under protest and duress, threat and coercion, by Rand Paul, all rights reserved without prejudice.

Remember, the name they know you as is a legal fiction and it is a separate entity to you, the flesh and blood person. This attempt by the government to conflate the two of you by requiring you to sign an electronic pad is a scam that must be resisted at all costs. People before you have not backed down and gotten what they wanted, and so can you if you do your research!!

Note that it may be worthwhile seeing if you can receive your payments in a more democratic alternative currency, like the several that are currently gaining ground on the world wide internet. Remember that fiat currency is a lie and fiction and exists solely as a tool of oppression, allowing multinational piracy organisations known as central banks to centrally control and artificially create inflation to intentionally devalue the net worth of private individuals with the net goal of coercing them into unlawful contracts of servitude. I have several documents prepared on alternative currencies such as gold or bitcoin that you can print out and hand out to the staff at your social welfare office...you may be surprised at the results!

What a Croc of crap. Would you object to using a biro with red ink.? What if the ink used was normally blue as usual but had magnetic properties that could be read electronically as opposed to the usual ink but in that case the signatures are scanned..
I suggest joining the local luddites club and complaining about this.

belcampprisoner

http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-is-the-new-social-welfare-id-card-a-good-idea-444620-May2012/

timmywex

Electronic Writer wrote: »

Recently the Department of Social Protection introduced with no notice electronic pad signature recognition for identity confirmation for my monthly signing at the local office in Dublin. Needless to say, I don't like surprises and my natural reaction was to block this unannounced introduction. I refused to sign electronically and requested a normal paper signing which was refused. I was told that if I didn't comply my claim would be stopped.

Does the Department of Social Protection have the power to compel a person to sign electronically without that persons consent?

Your getting free money off the government and complaining about having to sign on a little screen instead of a little piece of paper?

TBH if this is your attitude no wonder no one will give you a job

partyatmygaff

John Bitcoin Galt wrote: »

Hi,

It's always heartening to see people fighting back against oppression and injustice. The replies in this thread are depressing, it seems people are always to ready to crumble under government coercion at the slightest threat. Well I say to them "not in my name!".

This attempt to bring in electronic surveillance into our everyday lives is pernicious and tenacious. Remember that we are the front line, and you are doing your duty as a patriot and a citizen to stand against this at all costs. Privacy is at steak here!!

The next time you need to sign up say the following. (If they claim they do not understand you ask to speak to a superior. This always works. They may pretend not to understand you at first but in reality they have encountered this resistance many times before and they do not have a legal leg to stand on.)

I, Rand of the family Paul, (replace 'Rand Paul' with your own name obviously) hereinafter known as Rand: Paul (you can say this out loud but if you write, remember the colon, it is extremely impotent), a flesh and blood human being in possession of a sovereign and individual spirit, a living soul, do hereby make Oath and state the following is My Truth and My Law:

Whereas it is my understanding that it is the intent of the corporation known as the sovereign nation of Ireland intends to extent, by means of an electronic parchment, and in contradiction of international law, the contract it claims it holds with the person known as Rand Paul of bondage and involuntary servitude in the electronic domain.

Whereas it is my understanding a Freeman-on-the-land remains entirely and solely under Common Law jurisdiction, and I refuse to sign this electronic parchment using the name of my corporation under maritime law, to receive those funds which are unlawfully withheld from me in direct contradiction to international law by the corporation known as the republic of Ireland and the fictional and unlawful entity known as the Department of Social Welfare.

Under protest and duress, threat and coercion, by Rand Paul, all rights reserved without prejudice.

Remember, the name they know you as is a legal fiction and it is a separate entity to you, the flesh and blood person. This attempt by the government to conflate the two of you by requiring you to sign an electronic pad is a scam that must be resisted at all costs. People before you have not backed down and gotten what they wanted, and so can you if you do your research!!

Note that it may be worthwhile seeing if you can receive your payments in a more democratic alternative currency, like the several that are currently gaining ground on the world wide internet. Remember that fiat currency is a lie and fiction and exists solely as a tool of oppression, allowing multinational piracy organisations known as central banks to centrally control and artificially create inflation to intentionally devalue the net worth of private individuals with the net goal of coercing them into unlawful contracts of servitude. I have several documents prepared on alternative currencies such as gold or bitcoin that you can print out and hand out to the staff at your social welfare office...you may be surprised at the results!

Just sign your name and forget all this freeman shite. It won't work and in some cases will get you thrown in prison for your troubles.

If you want the help of the Department of Social Protection, you have to play by their rules. Even if said rules are as difficult to follow as signing your name on an electronic pad instead of paper (Oh the absolute horror...)

Newsflash: If the government actually wanted to forge your signature, they can look at one of the paper slips and get someone to copy it. Having an electronic copy isn't going to change anything.

Electronic Writer

Electronic Writer wrote: »

I'd like to know if it was lawful from a Social Welfare law perspective.

This is from the citizensinformation.ie website:

You must go to the social welfare local office usually every month and declare you are still unemployed and looking for work. You will be given a date and a time to sign on each month.

It's a pretty basic concept that most people are familiar with - to get the money you need to sign your name. You can't just go in and say you're not signing because they don't have the right hue of Basildon Bond, or indeed an electronic signing pad.

I'd love to make a joke like some of the other posters, but I'm honestly bemused at the thought that you'd refuse to sign just because they didn't visit your home to warn you of the new system.

When they give you one of those new DSP cards, are you going to refuse to bring it down the P.O.?

Lawliet

Well this is one of the stranger threads I've come across on the TCD forum.

Electronic Writer

7ofBrian, oppenheimer1, John Bitcoin Galt, passive, jimmycrackcorm, belcampprisoner, timmywex, partyatmygaff, true-or-false, Lawliet

Thanks all! My main aim is to teach and learn. Sidetracking can easily happen, I won't lose focus.

Is what I did lawful under current Social Welfare law?
Do I have the right to refuse to sign electronically?
Do I have the right to sign on paper?

I like your opinions, they are thought provoking, what are the actual lawful facts?

I once had a tooth extracted in the Trinity Dental School and I'm sure I learned as much from them as the students did from me!

kc90

I'm sure you have the right to refuse, in return, you won't be receiving payments. I would doubt there is any legislation covering the method of signing, but I have no experience with that.
Why is it important to you that you sign on paper?

Electronic Writer

kc90 wrote: »

I'm sure you have the right to refuse, in return, you won't be receiving payments.

Exactly what they said!

kc90 wrote: »

I would doubt there is any legislation covering the method of signing, but I have no experience with that.

There are Social Welfare Acts with information on the use of electronic signatures by the Minister which are quite recent. The thing about them is that they are mostly amendments to what already existed, it is then difficult to know what the current rules exactly are.

kc90 wrote: »

Why is it important to you that you sign on paper?

I, amongst other reasons, think electronic pad signatures are not secure.

timmywex

Electronic Writer wrote: »

I, amongst other reasons, think electronic pad signatures are not secure.

I dont understand this at all, are they going to copy your signature for something else? I think they could as easily do that otherwise without your signature, + its alot more secure than having paper lying around...

Dont sign = no monies, simples!

Realisticly very few on this forum get any form of social welfare so go ask in legal discussion maybe about the legalities


TL;DR, this is a ridculous thread, grow up and scribble your name down on the fupping thing

matt-dublin

Electronic Writer wrote: »

Exactly what they said!



There are Social Welfare Acts with information on the use of electronic signatures by the Minister which are quite recent. The thing about them is that they are mostly amendments to what already existed, it is then difficult to know what the current rules exactly are.



I, amongst other reasons, think electronic pad signatures are not secure.

They're encrypted for one due to data protection requirements.

They're also a hell of a lot more secure thn the plastic bag your paper signed signature goes into, then into a van to be transported back to wherever it needs to go.

At least the eldctronic signature encrypts the data and keeps it encrypted while transferring it to wherever it needs to go!

To me actually it sounds like the digital method is more secure and you're being a spoilt brat.

Plus there's nothing legally wrong with it and the most up to date laws will be on the citizen's information website.

And something wreeks when someone posts about being on the social in the TCD forum.

oppenheimer1

Electronic Writer wrote: »

7ofBrian, oppenheimer1, John Bitcoin Galt, passive, jimmycrackcorm, belcampprisoner, timmywex, partyatmygaff, true-or-false, Lawliet

Thanks all! My main aim is to teach and learn. Sidetracking can easily happen, I won't lose focus.

Is what I did lawful under current Social Welfare law?
Do I have the right to refuse to sign electronically?
Do I have the right to sign on paper?

I like your opinions, they are thought provoking, what are the actual lawful facts?

I once had a tooth extracted in the Trinity Dental School and I'm sure I learned as much from them as the students did from me!

Yeah, but you won't get an answer to your question here because the issue has nothing to do with Trinity. Its not a case of being sidetracked but more of being on the wrong track from the start.

You'd be much better off asking it in the bis-state benefits forum.

moc moc a moc

Electronic Writer wrote: »

I, amongst other reasons, think electronic pad signatures are not secure.

I'd be interested in hearing why you think a signature in ink on a slip of paper is more secure than one read electronically and encrypted before being stored or sent anywhere.

XxMCRxBabyxX

I'm lost... When did TCD take over the Dept of Social Protection?

Electronic Writer

Electronic Writer wrote: »

I, amongst other reasons, think electronic pad signatures are not secure.

Firstly, they're more secure than paper.
Secondly, I'd love to hear these 'other reasons'.
Thirdly, if they were up to no good, what's to stop them scanning a signed piece of paper into a computer? If you sign on the electronic pad, it's instantly logged in the computer. If you sign a piece of paper, that signature could easily be lost or photocopied or scanned into the personal laptop of whichever evil-doer you're scared of.

Scortho

Best thing to do is post in the legal discussion forum. There's qualified solicitors and barristers there and I wouldn't be surprised if a judge or two popped up.

While tcd dental hospital helped you out with a dental issue, they were under the guidance of some of the top dentists in the country. Not all students on here are under the guidance of legal experts so we can't help you to the same extent as before.
However, the legal discussion forum should have no problem clarifying your query.

Schnitzel Muncher

Mother of God. Hilarious thread.

Stick to your guns, OP.

It will save the state the best part of 10k a year and you will be the moral victor.

Don't let anyone tell you that you are a fruitcake.

Electronic Writer

Thanks Scortho, Schnitzel Muncher, true-or-false, XxMCRxBabyxX, moc moc a moc, timmywex, matt-dublin, oppenheimer1.

I've been enlightened as to the existence of the Legal Forum since my original post. Thanks TCD.

The student union library is great.

languagenerd

I know I haven't been on boards in a while, but wow, the TCD forum has changed!
Gotta go, am off to post my question about the TSM graduations in the Legal Discussions forum. :pac:

Jonathan

This has nothing to do with TCD, so I'm going to lock this.