Big bale boiler?

dungfly

I have alot of large bales(8x4x4 foot) and was thinking of using them in a boiler on the farm. Any suggestions....products, DIY, etc?

freedominacup

Google it there's plenty of options for round bales definitely. From memeory they use around 1 bale per day in winter to heat a house. Fairly complex control systems to regulate the speed of the burn.

reilig

freedominacup wrote: »

Google it there's plenty of options for round bales definitely. From memeory they use around 1 bale per day in winter to heat a house. Fairly complex control systems to regulate the speed of the burn.

It would be expensive heating at 1 bale per day to heat a house. Most of the options for bale boilers that I have seen are either for whole farm heating such as heating the house and heating water for a very large parlour. Other options are for district heating schemes where 1 bale might be heating 4 or 5 houses.

iverjohnston

At the moment you could sell them to farmers and get enough from 1 bale to heat the house for a week with an existing oil burner.

freedominacup

reilig wrote: »

It would be expensive heating at 1 bale per day to heat a house. Most of the options for bale boilers that I have seen are either for whole farm heating such as heating the house and heating water for a very large parlour. Other options are for district heating schemes where 1 bale might be heating 4 or 5 houses.

It depends on how much you value the straw at. If you're a tillage farmer in Wellington Bridge and hundreds of miles from customers then it's probably only got a value in the order of €8-€10/bale. When heating oil is over 90 cent it's probably a value proposition. You're probably correct about the usage though now that you say it. I think they were talking about 150-200 bales for heating and hot water for a large detached house for a year. It's years since I researched TBH.

reilig

freedominacup wrote: »

It depends on how much you value the straw at. If you're a tillage farmer in Wellington Bridge and hundreds of miles from customers then it's probably only got a value in the order of €8-€10/bale. When heating oil is over 90 cent it's probably a value proposition. You're probably correct about the usage though now that you say it. I think they were talking about 150-200 bales for heating and hot water for a large detached house for a year. It's years since I researched TBH.

I visited a district heating system in austria a number of years ago and they were heating half a village with a district heating system (about 40 houses) using 3 to 4 round bales per day (depending on heat demands. ie. weather) while burning on a continuous basis On the same trip we saw small boilers which were using 1 to 3 small bales per day for heating individual farm houses using buffer tanks and burning for 4 to 6 hours per day. It was a great job, but there was a huge amount of ash and disposing of it sustainably and legally was quite an issue.

nilhg

http://www.farm2000.co.uk/farm2000.co.uk/Index.html

Capital cost would be quite high I think because you'd be looking at a largeish accumulator tank but the general technology is well proven and reliable.

Fat Cant

If you had the small bale burner how often would you have to clean it out ?
Where do you get these burners ?

reilig wrote: »

I visited a district heating system in austria a number of years ago and they were heating half a village with a district heating system (about 40 houses) using 3 to 4 round bales per day (depending on heat demands. ie. weather) while burning on a continuous basis On the same trip we saw small boilers which were using 1 to 3 small bales per day for heating individual farm houses using buffer tanks and burning for 4 to 6 hours per day. It was a great job, but there was a huge amount of ash and disposing of it sustainably and legally was quite an issue.

nashmach

dungfly wrote: »

I have alot of large bales(8x4x4 foot) and was thinking of using them in a boiler on the farm. Any suggestions....products, DIY, etc?

A big bale burner would sound hellish massive, would be better with small squares?

Fat Cant

nashmach wrote: »

A big bale burner would sound hellish massive, would be better with small squares?

Id say a big bale burner would heat a hotel .
I was going going to build a house 2500sq ft and have straw at first hand and was thinking of small bale burner instead of oil heating ????

freedominacup

Fat Cant wrote: »

Id say a big bale burner would heat a hotel .
I was going going to build a house 2500sq ft and have straw at first hand and was thinking of small bale burner instead of oil heating ????

If it's a new buid then you should be able to get the straw burner installed at the best value along with planning for it in terms of a garage to put it in and maybe a second access point so as that you are not dragging bales of straw in past the front door. However the most important thing for you in a new build is to ensure that the potential savings from installing a straw burner are as tiny as possible.

It goes down to what an architect that lives locally to me said at a meeting we were having about restoring an old public building in the locality. Numerous voices were offering their opinions on what sort of heating system should be installed with all the usual suspects being listed. He put an end to it by simply saying that it was irrelevant what heating system you install if you don't stop the heat from escaping they will all cost far more than they should to run.

I did some work on his house during construction and it was his number one priority, ensuring the house was as well insulated as possible. He's not working for anyone selling any product and you will have plenty of them calling. Advice from someone without a sales agenda is going to be hard for you to come by while you're involved with this project.

Stop the heat getting out first, 6" cavities with 4" insulation, glue on insulated slabs on the inside of external wall and use them on ceilings, triple glazing if you can rise to it Add a block onto the length and width of the house and your internal room dimensions will be the same. Try to put a porch at front and back doors. Way over spec attic insulation. I've done as much as I can retro-fit and we've reduced our oil usage by over 60% back to less than 1 fill per year ona house around the size you hope to build. Your target should be to see if you can justify paying for the straw burner out of less than a grand a year spent on other fuels.

jersey101

We have a passat burner here, had to get a brand new one 3 yrs ago due to the pipes and barrel bursting on the old one that was here its a serious job but an awful lot of work. I wouldn't be surprised if we get cancer in yrs to com due to the smoke inhalation when we open the big door on it. Only reason it was put back in is 1. It was the only thing that the insurance would give us the money for.
2. And at the time it was the most economic thing we could get to heat the size of our house, its a big 3 storey georgian house.
And because we had loads of timber on the place at the time it made sense to have it so it could be burned to heat the house.
Now since then my mother has seen a little stove that heats over ten rads. She says you fill it up and it will burn for over 5 hours or something and its no bigger than a 9kw stove. Thats what we would go for if we were re doing the job again. The new Passat is way way more efficient than its predecessor which was 30 yrs old.

td5man

jersey101 wrote: »

We have a passat burner here, had to get a brand new one 3 yrs ago due to the pipes and barrel bursting on the old one that was here its a serious job but an awful lot of work. I wouldn't be surprised if we get cancer in yrs to com due to the smoke inhalation when we open the big door on it. Only reason it was put back in is 1. It was the only thing that the insurance would give us the money for.
2. And at the time it was the most economic thing we could get to heat the size of our house, its a big 3 storey georgian house.
And because we had loads of timber on the place at the time it made sense to have it so it could be burned to heat the house.
Now since then my mother has seen a little stove that heats over ten rads. She says you fill it up and it will burn for over 5 hours or something and its no bigger than a 9kw stove. Thats what we would go for if we were re doing the job again. The new Passat is way way more efficient than its predecessor which was 30 yrs old.

Have a Passat here as well but no buffer tank

bbam

Look at the problem the other way
Round lads.

Money and time is far better spent on air tightness and insulation, this way you near negate the need for heating.

If your loosing next to no heat then any system will be cheap to run. We heat our 2700 sq foot house on 500l of oil and some logs/coal for the year. And we could have gone further if I'd had more faith in what I was being told.

reilig

freedominacup wrote: »

However the most important thing for you in a new build is to ensure that the potential savings from installing a straw burner are as tiny as possible.

I'd be thinking the very opposite. You have to calculate what will give you the biggest potential savings. You have to calculate the cost of buying/sourcing the fuel - even if it's for your own farm. You have to add the extra costs of manually feeding the boiler once or twice a day.

Loads of people installed stoves, gasifiers and log boilers over the last few years. Many had a wild notion that they could buy cheap lorry loads of timber, saw and split it and save thousands! In reality, there are a load of unhappy wood burner owners out there now. Loads of softwood from coillte are now €1650. There is a hell of a lot of work into sawing and splitting a load. The boilers are not performing to the level that was claimed when they first bought it. If they bought processed wood, it would be more expensive than their oil boiler to heat the house.

You have to weigh it all up.

reilig

Fat Cant wrote: »

If you had the small bale burner how often would you have to clean it out ?
Where do you get these burners ?

I don't know where you would get one of these boilers. The ones I saw were in Austria. I don't know where they sourced them.

They had quite a large ash box and were only being cleaned out once a week. However, straw produces a hell of a lot of ash which is light but bulky. I'd have a concern about where you would dispose of this ash?

freedominacup

reilig wrote: »

I'd be thinking the very opposite. You have to calculate what will give you the biggest potential savings. You have to calculate the cost of buying/sourcing the fuel - even if it's for your own farm. You have to add the extra costs of manually feeding the boiler once or twice a day.

Loads of people installed stoves, gasifiers and log boilers over the last few years. Many had a wild notion that they could buy cheap lorry loads of timber, saw and split it and save thousands! In reality, there are a load of unhappy wood burner owners out there now. Loads of softwood from coillte are now €1650. There is a hell of a lot of work into sawing and splitting a load. The boilers are not performing to the level that was claimed when they first bought it. If they bought processed wood, it would be more expensive than their oil boiler to heat the house.

You have to weigh it all up.

I don't think you got my point. What I was trying to say was that the savings should be small because you have everthing else right and you're using as little fuel as possible, therefore the potential savings of one type of heating system over another are by definition as small as possible. A big Georgian pile like Jerseys will deliver good savings from a boiler that efficiently burns cheaper fuel. No matter what he does he will be limited in how far he can get with insulating and sealing certainly cost effectively.

F.D

reilig wrote: »

I don't know where you would get one of these boilers. The ones I saw were in Austria. I don't know where they sourced them.

They had quite a large ash box and were only being cleaned out once a week. However, straw produces a hell of a lot of ash which is light but bulky. I'd have a concern about where you would dispose of this ash?

Could you not just spread the ash back on the land? i presume it would be the same as when you just burn timber, you can spread it around the garden,

Would straw not burn up very quick? , also would the efficiency be relative to the type of straw used, eg rape straw or something with a higher fiber or natural oil content

F.D

reilig wrote: »

Loads of people installed stoves, gasifiers and log boilers over the last few years. Many had a wild notion that they could buy cheap lorry loads of timber, saw and split it and save thousands! In reality, there are a load of unhappy wood burner owners out there now. Loads of softwood from coillte are now €1650. There is a hell of a lot of work into sawing and splitting a load. The boilers are not performing to the level that was claimed when they first bought it. If they bought processed wood, it would be more expensive than their oil boiler to heat the house.

You have to weigh it all up.

If you dont include your time processing the wood and filing the boiler etc rellig would you say you save more over oil ?
Its a lifestyle choice at the end of the day buying and running these things, but i would rather do the work and save a few thousand on the oil bill

reilig

freedominacup wrote: »

I don't think you got my point. What I was trying to say was that the savings should be small because you have everthing else right and you're using as little fuel as possible, therefore the potential savings of one type of heating system over another are by definition as small as possible. A big Georgian pile like Jerseys will deliver good savings from a boiler that efficiently burns cheaper fuel. No matter what he does he will be limited in how far he can get with insulating and sealing certainly cost effectively.

I got your point. But it's in relation to insulation as opposed to a boiler.
Compare 2 houses with equal BER ratings.
Heat both houses with a similar kw boiler for equal times and equal temps.
If one is heated using oil, and one is heated using wood - there is potential for significant savings (up to 50%) - if the wood is sourced at the right price and if it has been processed cost effectively.

Boilers and insulation are 2 very different things and are only related inside the house when they combine to keep the inside of a house at a certain temperature. However, the amount of insulation in my house will not affect the efficiency of my boiler or the cost of the output of heat from it. Insulation will only affect how I use the heat!

reilig

F.D wrote: »

If you dont include your time processing the wood and filing the boiler etc rellig would you say you save more over oil ?
Its a lifestyle choice at the end of the day buying and running these things, but i would rather do the work and save a few thousand on the oil bill

€400 heats my house for the year with wood - that was the cost of buying the forestry thinnings. It's a 2200 sq ft house, stats at 22 degrees, standard insulation (2009 regulations). A similar size house with similar insulation and heated solely with oil would cost in the region of €1000 per year in oil. So there is potential for more than a 50% saving if you don't count the processing and the filling.

I suppose the point that I'm making is that a lot of people put in wood burning appliances without realising how much work would be involved in processing the wood. Then they sourced processed wood which may be as expensive as oil.

reilig

F.D wrote: »

Could you not just spread the ash back on the land? i presume it would be the same as when you just burn timber, you can spread it around the garden,

Would straw not burn up very quick? , also would the efficiency be relative to the type of straw used, eg rape straw or something with a higher fiber or natural oil content

You could, if you had land for it. It's messy when it gets wet. Cattle won't eat grass till it is washed off it.

I'm not up to scratch on efficiency of straw - I used to be, but it's been such a long time since I looked at it - a lot comes down to how well it is compacted in the bale.

Straw will burn for a long time if you are burning it in an appliance that thermostatically controls the amount of air that it takes in. A better example of this is to compare a stove (efficiency of 60%) to a gasifying boiler (efficiency of 95%). The gasifying boiler can get 35% more heat out of the same amount of timber because when it reaches a certain temperature it thermostatically closes off the amount of air that it takes in - a stove doesn't do this automatically. It relys on the human hand. Most stoves have poor air control settings so this makes them inefficient. Similarly with straw - efficiency is about control of the burn as much as it is about the type of straw.

Muckit

Freedom makes very good points. Insulation is the key. A house built to today's specs is miles ahead of a house built 5 years ago.

Then you have solar panels heating water to certain temp, lessening the burden on the heating system further.

Your left fighting over pennies then between the difference in the various fuel types to supply the little heat that is required.

Buy back time must also be considered. Doesn't matter how low the running costs are, if it takes longer than the serviceable life of the heating equipment to pay back the initial investment.

dzer2

Company in Carlow sell them . They have one in stock at the mo. We fitted a multifuel burner here 3 weeks ago comes with all the bells and whistles. Its the bees knees. It burns half a wheel barrow of sticks a day and to date we have had no ashes out of it.

jersey101

We take ashes out of ours maybe every 2 months. Throw it up in the dung heap, job done

td5man

jersey101 wrote: »

We take ashes out of ours maybe every 2 months. Throw it up in the dung heap, job done

Same here only we burn a lot of pallets so the ashes are full of nails.

jersey101

td5man wrote: »

Same here only we burn a lot of pallets so the ashes are full of nails.

what do you do with it then? We cut alot of trees off the land so have had loads of wood like that, trees getting very scarce here now though :O

dzer2

jersey101 wrote: »

what do you do with it then? We cut alot of trees off the land so have had loads of wood like that, trees getting very scarce here now though :O

A lot of lads that do the fire wood processing cant handle the over sized logs and are selling them. Its a handy way of getting timber without getting a lorry load.

jersey101

dzer2 wrote: »

A lot of lads that do the fire wood processing cant handle the over sized logs and are selling them. Its a handy way of getting timber without getting a lorry load.

well i mean scarce on the ditches i still have a 13 acre natural wood that i can take a few trees out

td5man

jersey101 wrote: »

what do you do with it then? We cut alot of trees off the land so have had loads of wood like that, trees getting very scarce here now though :O

Wheelie bin

jersey101

td5man wrote: »

Wheelie bin

im surprised you didnt say you fooked em all over your neighbours field seeing as you seem to hste them

td5man

jersey101 wrote: »

im surprised you didnt say you fooked em all over your neighbours field seeing as you seem to hste them

Now theres an idea