On Americanisation destroying Irish Catholicism (from an American in Ireland)

Roger Buck

I am an American in Ireland (with Irish roots).

I am an American in Ireland weeping for the Holy Church.

I am an American in Ireland desperate to find answers to save the Church in Ireland ...

Ireland, O Ireland ...

I have lived in seven different countries now - but Ireland has meant the most to me of all.

Now I fear your deeply Christian country is being colonised by largely Anglo-American driven globalisation.

My own culture is destroying your culture ...

What is to be done?

I do not know, but for anyone interested in the issues I raise here, I want to say that I am blogging about it.

My most recent post is called Encountering Catholic Ireland.

Link is here: http://corjesusacratissimum.org/2013/05/encountering-catholic-ireland/

I also have an archive of relevant posts here: http://corjesusacratissimum.org/tag/catholic-ireland/

Zombrex

Roger Buck wrote: »

I am an American in Ireland (with Irish roots).

I am an American in Ireland weeping for the Holy Church.

I am an American in Ireland desperate to find answers to save the Church in Ireland ...

Ireland, O Ireland ...

I have lived in seven different countries now - but Ireland has meant the most to me of all.

Now I fear your deeply Christian country is being colonised by largely Anglo-American driven globalisation.

My own culture is destroying your culture ...

What is to be done?

I do not know, but for anyone interested in the issues I raise here, I want to say that I am blogging about it.

My most recent post is called Encountering Catholic Ireland.

Link is here: http://corjesusacratissimum.org/2013/05/encountering-catholic-ireland/



I also have an archive of relevant posts here: http://corjesusacratissimum.org/tag/catholic-ireland/

This seems rather vague complaint, can you give an example of the negative American influences, do you mean democratic constitution, Scientology, McDonald's, elvis?

Roger Buck

Your point about vagueness is well-taken, Zombrex.

Although I think what I mean must be obvious to many, an Irishman on an entirely different forum has summed up some points here in admirable way and I hope he will not mind my quoting him.

This is being lazy of me, for I lack time to specify much right now.

So, for now, I will just quote him. The emphasis in bold is my own.

I wouldn't be too optimistic about the faith's prospects in Ireland. And I don't think it's just my gloomy temperament. There is a real hostility to Catholicism here among my parent's generation. It is very rare now to see a priest wear his collar in public.

Among my own generation of 20-somethings there is contempt or indifference. Religious education programmes are fatuous. I certainly didn't take it seriously then. Virtually no one of my generation has been catechised in any meaningful way.

My friends' ideas about Christianity are often ideas picked up from American TV which actually refer to Protestantism. ...

... Dublin increasingly dominates the country, both demographically and culturally. And even along the West coast of Ireland, which I regard as the last bastion of civilization, the new generation is being mentally and spiritually shaped by Anglo-American media culture.

Much more can be found at my blog.

But I will also try to find time later in case all this remains too vague you or others ...

DEFTLEFTHAND

American culture has been directly influencing Irish culture since they played the movie reels in the thirties and forties, and of course many emigrated over before that. The Irish have always been intrigued by the USA, They used to say that the average Irish/American family consisted of at least one(:pac:) cop, priest and gangster.

Americanisation is not destroying Irish Catholicism, it's a mixture of the modern world and other factors, Particularly the abuse scandals which have alienated many. We're also going through an 'Uber' Liberal phase within our younger population, this is the tail end of the first generation who received free third level education. Pseudo intellectuals with childish ideas.

Manach

At a personal level, I find solace and comfort in the traditional values and faith teachings that are being promoted by the America Catholic ETWN network. The current culture in Ireland has been influenced to a great extent postively and negatively by the US, but there are also influences from mainland Europe as well which changed Irish ways.

Roger Buck

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

it's a mixture of the modern world and other factors

I do agree with you that there other factors, including what you mention.

But when you invoke "the modern world" surely so much of what is driving that modern world is America is it not.

The only reason English, for example, is becoming the world language is in the incredibly powerful force exerted by American.

Globalisation, to a very large extent, is Americanisation.

Ireland is more vulnerable though than Catholic cultures such as Spain or Poland, say, because of the shared language.

Morbert

Roger Buck wrote: »

I am an American in Ireland (with Irish roots).

I am an American in Ireland weeping for the Holy Church.

I am an American in Ireland desperate to find answers to save the Church in Ireland ...

Ireland, O Ireland ...

I have lived in seven different countries now - but Ireland has meant the most to me of all.

Now I fear your deeply Christian country is being colonised by largely Anglo-American driven globalisation.

My own culture is destroying your culture ...

What is to be done?

I do not know, but for anyone interested in the issues I raise here, I want to say that I am blogging about it.

My most recent post is called Encountering Catholic Ireland.

Link is here: http://corjesusacratissimum.org/2013/05/encountering-catholic-ireland/

I also have an archive of relevant posts here: http://corjesusacratissimum.org/tag/catholic-ireland/

I am also an American in Ireland, and I don't think American culture is destroying Ireland at all. Much of what people call "American culture" is really just an increase in wealth, consumerism, and progressivism, which happens in any developed country.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Roger Buck wrote: »

I do agree with you that there other factors, including what you mention.

But when you invoke "the modern world" surely so much of what is driving that modern world is America is it not.

The only reason English, for example, is becoming the world language is in the incredibly powerful force exerted by American.

Globalisation, to a very large extent, is Americanisation.

Ireland is more vulnerable though than Catholic cultures such as Spain or Poland, say, because of the shared language.

This is true you have a point it's a contributory factor, however the main component of the Irish problem I believe is internal, the church had quite a say here in the past, nothing like you would have ever experienced in America. It was like a mafioso grip and nobody dared step out of line, the current generation are rebelling against their parents society, they're 'educated' and feel the need express themselves.

They hate the church because they feel it oppressed previous generations on the island. They now feel liberated and will denounce all CC viewpoints in any field of subject en masse, often times just for spite

Roger Buck

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

nothing like you would have ever experienced in America. It was like a mafioso grip and nobody dared step out of line

I hear this and reading Tom Inglis' book Moral Monopoly whose thesis is exactly that: the so-called mafioso grip.

The thing is I don't think any society is free from mafioso grips.

As an American ... who had none of this, you are right DeftLeftHand ... there are things that I am very deeply ashamed of that were inculcated in me by Americanism.

For example, my European wife and I were in college together (in Britain) and we had a financial crisis due to a tragedy in the family.

We went to get help from the college bursary. My wife had little shame.

I was shaking like a leaf because American society had instilled in me so much fear about being poor, about not being self-reliant etc ...

I could go on and on.

But the point is - every society enforces social conformity.

I really doubt Ireland was worse than America and I think in many ways it was much - much! - better.

Roger Buck

Morbert wrote: »

I am also an American in Ireland, and I don't think American culture is destroying Ireland at all. Much of what people call "American culture" is really just an increase in wealth, consumerism, and progressivism, which happens in any developed country.

To my mind, the last two things are very hard to disentangle from America ...

America is the capitalist/consumerist culture par excellence on this planet and pioneered that in the last century.

Progressivism may just be another name for the values that America was in the forefront of developing. (I would need to know exactly what you mean by the word "progressivism").

PopePalpatine

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

They hate the church because they know it oppressed previous generations on the island.

Fixed your post.

Zombrex

Roger Buck wrote: »

I really doubt Ireland was worse than America and I think in many ways it was much - much! - better.

You seem to have a bit of a rose tinted vision of Ireland's past. Which is understandable, we did a good job of presenting this reserved utopia vision to the rest of the world during the last century.

The reality was very different. You should have a look at things like the Magdalena laundrys or any of the numerous other oppressive institutions and cultural restrictions Irish society adhered to.

Whether it was the aunt that went to "study" in England (ie have her baby and the give it up for adoption), to the alcoholic family member, to the son who committed suicide but is official recorded as a "traffic accident", Irish society in the last century was one obsessed with notions of sin, shame, guilt, embarrassment, social standing etc. This produced a very dysfunctional and unhappy society.

The purpose of all this deception and secrecy was of course to present a faux happy righteous picture to the world, be that your neighbours, local priest, government, the world in general. Which obviously worked to an extend since many including yourself seem to hark back to these "golden" days.

But if you were faced with what it was really like, not the myth, you would be running to the hills.

Geomy

John Moriarty wrote a book called "Invoking Ireland"

It's well worth a read, he wrote about Ireland from pre Christian times right up to modern day Ireland.
He came to his own conclusion at the end.

We're a mixed bag here in Ireland.

Its hard to please everyone, you have the dogmatic religious on one side and the know it alls on the other.

Then alsorts in the middle. ..

Its a hard call :-)

Nino Brown

Yeah its the Americans that are destroying Catholicism, not the child rapists!

Geomy

I think Catholicism is destroying it's self

nagirrac

Catholicism in my opinion will go the way of the dodo.

Whether Christianity survives is another story, the morals expressed in the New Testament accounts of Jesus are truly fundamentally sound. Compassion and self sacrifice in the cause of helping others are noble undertakings, at the end of the day humans will survive based on cooperation as they have up to now or destroy themselves based on selfishness. I would say the jury is out, but the signs from our consumerist society today are not that promising as the older generation are now essentially stealing from the next generations to pay for their excess lifestyle demands. No amount of arguing that they worked hard and deserve it excuses their selfish excess in my opinion. This was unheard of in the past where self sacrifice to benefit future generations was common, most of our parents and grandparents would have walked over coals to ensure a better life for us.

As an Irishman who has lived outside Ireland for decades I am surprised to hear of so many despairing at life in Ireland and wishing for a more fair or just society. I can honestly say from having been outside the country for a long period, but visiting often, and having travelled the globe extensively there is nowhere like Ireland. The spirit of community and willingness to help others in need is a remarkably Irish thing and trust me not something that you typically find outside Ireland. Be careful what you ask for, before you know it you will be like the rest of Western society where people walk past those less fortunate than them and wish they didn't have to endure looking at them.

Roger Buck

Geomy wrote: »

John Moriarty wrote a book called "Invoking Ireland"

Geomy - I will look for this book. I am grateful for the recommendation.

Zombrex, I am trying to educate myself about what you speak.

I mentioned above that I am reading Tom Inglis' Moral Monopoly. I intend to read much more.

Of course, this will never substitute for the real lived experience of those who lived here.

I regularly ask the older generation here in Ireland.

I meet many, many people who say Ireland was much better in the past ...

I have met the opposite too. More rarely.

Anyway I am trying to think about and even actively study the the things you say.

Roger Buck

nagirrac wrote: »

As an Irishman who has lived outside Ireland for decades I am surprised to hear of so many despairing at life in Ireland and wishing for a more fair or just society. I can honestly say from having been outside the country for a long period, but visiting often, and having travelled the globe extensively there is nowhere like Ireland. The spirit of community and willingness to help others in need is a remarkably Irish thing and trust me not something that you typically find outside Ireland. Be careful what you ask for, before you know it you will be like the rest of Western society where people walk past those less fortunate than them and wish they didn't have to endure looking at them.

Nagirrac - THANK YOU!!!

Yes, yes and YES!

I have lived in seven different countries.

Ireland is the most incredible of them all in terms of exactly what you say here.

The Catholic Sacraments have a tremendous amount to do with that.

Geomy

Roger Buck wrote: »

Nagirrac - THANK YOU!!!

Yes, yes and YES!

I have lived in seven different countries.
The
Ireland is the most incredible of them all in terms of exactly what you say here.

The Catholic Sacraments have a tremendous amount to do with that.

You definitely have to read,Invoking Ireland.
Also check out his other books.

It's only 7.50

You can order it from The Lillyputpress, 62, 63 Sitric Road, Arbour Hill, Dublin 7

www.lilliputpress.ie

Click on the philosophy link

There's also a movie called Dreamtime Revisited

Corkfeen

Roger Buck wrote: »

I do agree with you that there other factors, including what you mention.

But when you invoke "the modern world" surely so much of what is driving that modern world is America is it not.

The only reason English, for example, is becoming the world language is in the incredibly powerful force exerted by American.

Globalisation, to a very large extent, is Americanisation.

Ireland is more vulnerable though than Catholic cultures such as Spain or Poland, say, because of the shared language.

English didn't need America to propagate the language. A large proportion of the world had been colonised by the British by the time America became a major world power, sure they were even responsible for Americans speaking English.

Roger Buck wrote: »

I hear this and reading Tom Inglis' book Moral Monopoly whose thesis is exactly that: the so-called mafioso grip.

The thing is I don't think any society is free from mafioso grips.

As an American ... who had none of this, you are right DeftLeftHand ... there are things that I am very deeply ashamed of that were inculcated in me by Americanism.

For example, my European wife and I were in college together (in Britain) and we had a financial crisis due to a tragedy in the family.

We went to get help from the college bursary. My wife had little shame.

I was shaking like a leaf because American society had instilled in me so much fear about being poor, about not being self-reliant etc ...

I could go on and on.

But the point is - every society enforces social conformity.

I really doubt Ireland was worse than America and I think in many ways it was much - much! - better.

Ireland was fairly awful in contrast to America, my mother emigrated from America from a very young age and it was somewhat of a culture shock to her. Economically the country was in an awful state, far worse than now. To a certain degree the state was closed off from the rest of the world and censorship of all media was common. Suicides were covered up for church funerals and abuse scandal within the church were covered up. People who were gay left the state because of the Irish attitude towards homosexuality alongside it being illegal. Contraceptives could occasionally be prescribed if there was medical grounds.

Basically being inclusive wasn't a major priority and government policy was formed around what the Church would support or condemn. How is that a better society? The free flow of information may contribute to a decline in Catholicism but one of the major factors is the grip that Catholicism had on the Irish state and how it was very much so abused.

Roger Buck

Corkfeen wrote: »

Ireland was fairly awful in contrast to America, my mother emigrated from America from a very young age and it was somewhat of a culture shock to her. Economically the country was in an awful state, far worse than now.

Corkfeen I hear this.

As an American who grew up in a warm, centrally heated house and the excessive materialism that even poorer Americans have, I can understand that I could have found Irish poverty hard, if I had had to make the transition your mother did.

You make a number of points, not all of which I will respond to now. Maybe more later about English as world language etc

However what you say ignores what nagirrac has said above.

And I hope everyone will pardon me for a moment but I am not only going to repeat what he said, but put bits in bold:

nagirrac wrote: »

As an Irishman who has lived outside Ireland for decades I am surprised to hear of so many despairing at life in Ireland and wishing for a more fair or just society. I can honestly say from having been outside the country for a long period, but visiting often, and having travelled the globe extensively there is nowhere like Ireland.

The spirit of community and willingness to help others in need is a remarkably Irish thing and trust me not something that you typically find outside Ireland. Be careful what you ask for, before you know it you will be like the rest of Western society where people walk past those less fortunate than them and wish they didn't have to endure looking at them.

Nagirrac, you have hit the nail on the head. There is nowhere like Ireland ...

And I am not embarrassed to shout if from the rooftops of cyberspace!

In all the time, I have lived here, I have thought the Irish often have no idea how lucky they are. You people have much more to be proud of than you realise ...

What is more, from everyone I've spoken to "this spirit of community and willingness to help others in need" as Nagirrac puts was stronger in the past than in the more Americanised Ireland of today

I am sorry Corkfeen, having lived in both countries, having listened to many Irish people, both positive and negative, your thesis that "Ireland was fairly awful in contrast to America" is completely untenable for me ...

Corkfeen

Roger Buck wrote: »

Nagirrac, you have hit the nail on the head. There is nowhere like Ireland ...

And I am not embarrassed to shout if from the rooftops of cyberspace!

In all the time, I have lived here, I have thought the Irish often have no idea how lucky they are. You people have much more to be proud of than you realise ...

What is more, from everyone I've spoken to "this spirit of community and willingness to help others in need" as Nagirrac puts was stronger in the past than in the more Americanised Ireland of today

I am sorry Corkfeen, having lived in both countries, having listened to many Irish people, both positive and negative, your thesis that "Ireland was fairly awful in contrast to America" is completely untenable for me ...

While the spirit of community sounds great in theory and i'm sure many people benefited from it. The church still effectively dictated the morality of the Irish people through the government. They dictated if one could use contraceptives and prevented people from exiting unhappy or even abusive marriages. If one fell pregnant outside of marriage, sure they would be lobbed into a laundry. If one was gay, they would be forced to cover up their sexual identity or leave the country. That hardly constitutes a great community spirit. These people weren't helped, they were hidden away. Basically, Ireland was a gated community that ignored it's grave issues.

You are looking at the Irish state through rose tinted glasses. One can't deny that socially there was and still is major issues in the US socially but there was in Ireland too. This happens for the past in the US too, many think that the 1950s was the greatest period in their history however this ignores issues such as racism, McCarthyism etc. It's idealised. It wasn't a utopia in Ireland prior to the reduction in the Church and Catholicism's influence. There was major inequalities, social injustices and pontificating on what one could or couldn't do based on the idea that Ireland was a Catholic state. Many of these issues have been resolved since the influence has been reduced. Nobody is prevented from being a Catholic but people for the most part aren't force to adhere by its beliefs if they don't believe them. Ultimately, the state has progressed.

Americanisms or whatever played no part in me no longer being Catholic or even my atheism. My free access to information possibly influenced it although I reached my conclusions at a fairly young age. I love the material world and view the world to be an amazing place. Religion should not have a stranglehold over what I can or can't do, what exactly is wrong with that? If Ireland had not progressed to the point where we could question the Church, would the scandals and abuses by the church have ever been uncovered?

Morbert

Roger Buck wrote: »

To my mind, the last two things are very hard to disentangle from America ...

America is the capitalist/consumerist culture par excellence on this planet and pioneered that in the last century.

Progressivism may just be another name for the values that America was in the forefront of developing. (I would need to know exactly what you mean by the word "progressivism").

By progressivism I effectively mean the advancement of three things: secular pluralism, empowerment of women, and personal liberties.

America was indeed at the forefront in many waya, but I maintain that such ideals that are now prevalent in Ireland are not uniquely American.

In all the time, I have lived here, I have thought the Irish often have no idea how lucky they are. You people have much more to be proud of than you realise ...

What is more, from everyone I've spoken to "this spirit of community and willingness to help others in need" as Nagirrac puts was stronger in the past than in the more Americanised Ireland of today

I am sorry Corkfeen, having lived in both countries, having listened to many Irish people, both positive and negative, your thesis that "Ireland was fairly awful in contrast to America" is completely untenable for me ...

In the past, the Irish spirit of community was great when it came to welcoming outsiders and visitors, but it was deeply poisonous domestically speaking. It was a community, for example, that established concentration camps for women (euphemistically referred to as "laundries") because there was terrible fear and shame of "what the neighbors might think". It was a land of squinting windows. It was a community that tolerated the systematic abuse of children unfortunate enough to be under the thumb of state and religious institutes.

Modern Ireland, by contrast, is far healthier. Friendliness is no longer merely extended to strangers, but to the core of communities. Whether or not you attribute this to America, few Irish people would argue that our society was in any way healthier in the past.

Geomy

Materialism is very beneficial to people, , and you should always be outstanding in your community.
Always Look good and drive a 40, 000 + car, never diy it looks bad if your neighbours see you have to work.
If you loose your job don't worry if your plastic materialistic partner leaves ya, sure you deserve it for loosing your job.

It makes them much better in life and the
more materialistic you are the better person you become.

Mindfulness religion and spirituality are bad for the community.

Materialism is great :-)

Roger Buck

Corkfeen, Morbert there are perceptive points in your posts.

However, to my mind you both seem uncritically enamoured of the Zeitgeist - seeing the values of the present generation with Rose-tinted glasses, as it were.

Certainly, the modern world - and not just Ireland - has made progress in certain areas.

For example, I would not deny that my own country, America, is better for having repealed the Jim Crow laws and a certain decrease in racism.

Does such progress mean ipso facto that America is a better place than it was?

For black people in the South, no doubt some terrible, terrible cruelty has been relieved. But the modern world has seen all kinds of terrible losses as well.

The world today is far less safe in terms of crime, there are huge, huge rises in mental illness, addictive behaviour, suicide.

You refer to "personal liberties" Morbert - as though it were axiomatic that people are more free today.

Do you really think people are more free?

Perhaps you do and perhaps you have thought it out carefully. I couldn't judge that, I think, without speaking to you personally.

But the vast majority of people who think that personal liberty has been advanced are simply regurgitating media stereotypes and the media is full of uncritical Rose-tinted approbation of the Zeitgeist.

Morbert, you speak of "the empowerment of women" as though this were axiomatic. Something we should all accept as uncontestably true.

As with my example of racism above, gains have been made in select areas I will grant you.

But women, like all of us, have lost a great deal of power in this world of greater stress, addiction, increased wage-slavery consumerism, sexualisation, abortion etc ...

Again, Morbert, perhaps you yourself have thought these issues out very carefully and critically. I cannot judge from pixels in cyberspace.

But if you have thought this out critically, you are in an enviable minority who is thinking critically about these issues.

Most people who are convinced that liberty has advanced seem to me uncritical slaves to the Zeitgeist, arrogantly self-assured as to the superiority of the media's representation of its own generational superiority.

However, I think one you say at least is very untenable

Morbert wrote: »

few Irish people would argue that our society was in any way healthier in the past.

There are massive numbers of Irish people who say no such thing.

One needs to get out of one's own demographic in order to hear different points of view.

Over the years, I have regularly asked older people in Ireland and elsewhere whether the world they were born into was a better or worse place than the world they know today.

I get a few people saying things have improved. But in speaking to the oldest generations, I most often hear mourning and loss.

I am asked to believe by those uncritically enamoured of the Zeitgeist, that these are doddery fools drowning in rose-tinted nostalgia for a world that - surely - they only remember selectively and partially, cutting out the bad bits.

Surely their memory is selective. Surely they have not realised what progress has been made.

What arrogance! What inability to listen, really listen. What uncritical surety that we have made progress, become freer etc etc.

It is tragic and heartbreaking.

Roger Buck

P.S. I said above: One needs to get out of one's own demographic in order to hear different points of view.

Another way of saying this is that one should try to listen carefully to many different perspectives.

I mentioned twice in this thread that I am reading Moral Monopoly Tom Inglis' devastating critique of the Church in Ireland which makes - in nearly 300 pages - the kinds of criticism and charges made by Morbert and Corkfeen.

Similarly, I have worked through Charles Taylor's A Secular Age, which is all praise to our modern secular world. Taylor particularly makes many great points.

I also recently read Bob Geldof's autobiography about growing up in an Ireland that he found tyrannical, prudish, hypocritical.

So I try to listen to that side of the story - as just that: one side of the story.

My fear is that so many people are only listening to one side of the story.

Morbert, Corkfeen: have you ever read a 300 page book about the other side of the story - say a 300 page book about the beauty of Catholic Ireland? (I would recommend Mary Kenny's Goodbye to Catholic Ireland for the other side of the story.)

Or have you ever worked your way through an 800 page critique of modernity?

Maybe you have. I cannot judge you from pixels in cyberspace.

I only know that too,too many people are making no such efforts to listen to both sides.

They just get uncritically locked into one select stream of commentary/analysis - very often largely - and frighteningly - through the media.

Heartbreaking.

Corkfeen

I have read criticisms of modernity but I have no great desire to read an 800 page one. I've spent plenty of time critically analysing documents of the Irish government and various literature that relates to the state throughout the 20th century amongst other works so my critical thinking is perfectly fine.

Addiction to substances has been an issue throughout the world for thousands of years. Ireland has a well documented history of substance abuse that goes back a lot further than the Irish state so i'm trying to work out how you can attribute that to materialism or any such thing. Addiction is not unique to the 20th or 21st century.

In terms of mental illness, there has been a rise in diagnosing them. A couple of decades ago these exact may have not been diagnosed but it was very much so present. The DSM manual for diagnosing only goes back around 4 decades so methods were highly unreliable prior to this. Plus over diagnosis of certain conditions occurs at the very same time. For issues like depression, many simply engaged in substance abuse in previous decades, this could be a contributory factor to Ireland's alcoholism. We're far more likely to address the issue than in previous generations. Could you honestly say a man in Ireland would have used a counsellor a couple of decades ago?

Suicide is a major issue, in Ireland it has been for decades. This applied to ultra-Conservative Ireland and present day Ireland. But it's actually reported as suicide now. We are making efforts to deal with it but it's a highly complex issue that can't be reduced to modernity. While at times it can be pressures of modern day aspects of life such as financial pressure. It isn't the sole reason.

There's less conservatism around sex and excessive sexualisation exists at times. But if we jump back a couple of decades, a man could have sex with his wife without consent so legalised rape.(Not unique to Ireland) A husband ultimately having power over their wives assets because that's historically how Ireland rolled.

Nobody is forcing a woman to have an abortion(the criteria to even have one is absurdly strict in Ireland tbh) if she is in opposition to their moral beliefs, don't have one. It's not unique to a modern world as abortions have existed for millennia at this point.

If you look through a couple of centuries of history. It's not very difficult to see things improving and progressivism was very much so a driving factor behind it. I can honestly say that this period in time that we are alive in is one of most peaceful, least violent, most socially equal and most healthy times in world history. This applies to Ireland as much as most countries in the world. Violent crimes have actually fallen in Ireland since the recession started.


Also, while the worst traits of racial intolerance existed in the South. Racism was present throughout the United States to a large degree. The gains in terms of reducing racism and increasing rights have been massive. The President of America is black, it's a bloody massive deal and it shows how much the world has progressed.

You have avoided addressing any of the major issues that existed in Ireland throughout that wonderful time. Sex abuse cover ups, sending women to laundries, censorship of media(Do you even believe in freedom of expression, is the world better without Joyce or Monty Python?), outlawing of contraceptives, criminalising homosexuality, divorce and the general grip the church had over the state. You may find plenty of people from that generation that may say many of these were acceptable. But to be perfectly blunt, they weren't. A Catholic is perfectly free to practise and it is foolish to blame the decline on the media and the like. Social pressures do not prevent from practising and Ireland is a far more free place than it was, even 20 years ago.

Roger Buck

Corkfeen wrote: »

You have avoided addressing any of the major issues that existed in Ireland throughout that wonderful time. Sex abuse cover ups, sending women to laundries, censorship of media(Do you even believe in freedom of expression, is the world better without Joyce or Monty Python?), outlawing of contraceptives, criminalising homosexuality, divorce and the general grip the church had over the state. You may find plenty of people from that generation that may say many of these were acceptable. But to be perfectly blunt, they weren't.

I agree that very much of what you say is hardly desirable.

My reference to the cruelty of American racism above was one way of addressing what you raise here.

As a Catholic, I acknowledge that humanity is fallen, terribly, terribly fallen.

Evil exists in every age. In the American South - and you are right elsewhere, Corkfeen elsewhere in America - it existed in the form of tremendous cruelty towards blacks.

In Ireland, it existed in the cruel ways you mention.

In continental Europe, it took the form of hideous anti-semitism which was not so prevalent in America.

I understand the arguments you advance above.

I was a liberal, anti-religious person for many years myself.

I gave little lectures to people about how much society had progressed.

What you say above reminds me of my younger self - except that I was patronising and arrogant.

Corkfeen, I feel - and applaud - your moral concern towards the evils of the past.

To my mind, you may be missing a great deal about the evil of the present - again seeing the Zeitgeist through Rose-tinted spectacles.

One can argue all one likes with statistical data ...

But, for me, the heart either feels or it does not feel.

I pray that my heart feels ever more intensely the evils of the past that you mention.

I pray that my heart feels ever more intensely the evils of the present that, in my opinion, you give too short shrift to.

But what matters is a change in heart. Arguing in statistical data I have found leads nowhere.

My own path has led me to weep ever more for modernity.

For you it is different and no amount of arguing will change that.

Roger Buck

In the above, I have tried to give a brief response to you Corkfeen in terms of not avoiding the legitimate issues you raise regarding the evil of the past.

If you are interested, I have a longer treatment of this theme at my site.

It is called: On the Crimes of Catholics.

Link here: http://corjesusacratissimum.org/2011/02/on-the-crimes-of-catholics-a-response-to-rexteryalizer-and-mark/

Benny_Cake

Roger Buck wrote: »

I do not know, but for anyone interested in the issues I raise here, I want to say that I am blogging about it.

My most recent post is called Encountering Catholic Ireland.

Link is here: http://corjesusacratissimum.org/2013/05/encountering-catholic-ireland/

I also have an archive of relevant posts here: http://corjesusacratissimum.org/tag/catholic-ireland/

Roger Buck wrote: »

In the above, I have tried to give a brief response to you Corkfeen in terms of not avoiding the legitimate issues you raise regarding the evil of the past.

If you are interested, I have a longer treatment of this theme at my site.

It is called: On the Crimes of Catholics.

Link here: http://corjesusacratissimum.org/2011/02/on-the-crimes-of-catholics-a-response-to-rexteryalizer-and-mark/

Welcome to Boards. By way of warning, you are welcome to engage in discussion, but simply referring people to your blog breaches site rules against spamming.

Paramite Pie

I don't think any of us here are uncritical of modern Ireland (our entire forum is based on criticising it!) but I am of the opinion that for the most part Irish society is better off in so many ways.

Let's start with Catholicism. Many years ago, my grandmother and my parents were fearful of their local Priest. Many of them were cold, rude people from what I heard, with a nice priest being a rarity at the time.

You see having a priest in the family was a status thing so the first born son was often pressured by his parents (namely the mother) in priesthood. Many had no interest in a lifelong vocation and were bitter about it. This was what a priest in my school told us in religion class one day. His older brother was forced into the priesthood and to this day is still miserable about it.

There was no sense of community between the people and the church. There was only fear.

And let's continue talking about the community in general. Yes, in the past, neighbours looked after one another, helped with the farm, with food, with handiwork, with whatever needed doing. Some neighbours were lovely, others took advantage according to my mum.

Nowadays people don't turn to their neighbours for help, but they do turn to their friends. You see I might not know my neighbours but many good friends are a simple phone call away and will help me to know end. In the past people stuck to their social class and to their immediate village. Nowadays I have friends in many different counties, so my community has grown larger. We live further away from our home town and move around alot more so naturally we don't know everyone around like they did in the past. (people in rural areas where they know everyone are the worst gossipers!!)

I also think the friendly, caring neighbour of the past had little to do with Catholic Dogma. What seperates Catholicism from other aspects of Christianity is it's theology which meant little to the peasants/farmers of old.
Ireland was a colonized country at one point with a hostile police force and cruel landlords. People needed to stick together to survive and help to get help back. As time went on the sense of community stayed during independence since there was little State help and the Church was unapproachable at the time. I believe this contributed more than a Latin mass or whether the Eucharist was literal flesh or not. People had a poor understanding of Latin so their understanding of Catholic teachings was poor at the time. My Dad was an altar boy but had no clue what the prayers he said in Latin meant.

The "love thy neighbour" aspect of Christianity is in all the Christian faiths so perhaps you can elaborate on how you believe Catholic teachings influence these actions as I don't see it personally.

In terms of consumerism, it's often falsely assumed that this has to do with a liberal society but consumerism is what spread colonization way back in the Age of Discovery. People wanted exotic spices and fruits, fancy furs and ivorys. Human greed is not new, it's simply much more affordable now.:(

Crime, suicide and a plethora of other problems stem from modern pressure but these problems existed before. More crime exists because there's more opportunity in crimes (international blackmarket) to drive it not because of a drop in Church attendance. Crime thrives in poor communities even though these communities often have more conservative attitudes. Therefore crime is unlikely to be connected to either a rise or fall in religious practice in my opinion.

Kiwi in IE

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

We're also going through an 'Uber' Liberal phase within our younger population, this is the tail end of the first generation who received free third level education. Pseudo intellectuals with childish ideas.

Do you admit liberalism is a result of education?

lmaopml

Meh! I think sometimes the Americans are better at getting up off their asses at times, even though we pride ourselves on doing so...it's nice to see some inspiration, that isn't about the terrible past, but about the really bright future..that we own, if we just want to.

I like EWTN - I think the little nun with the huge opinion and equally huge heart, and pretty cool mouth too that never gave up...ha! - did one of the best things ever as far as celebration of what the new social media and communication can do!


God bless her! I'm really thankful for her.

Roger Buck

Have just received the Spam warning from Benny Cake and didn't realise I was doing that in this discussion, anyway. Because I was not simply placing links. Most of what I said was not in regard to those links.

Hoever I confess elsewhere I DID do something elsewhere that could be seen as such and I apologise for it).

Paramite Pie, thank you for telling me of your grandmother's experience. I hear this and need to hear it.

You write:

There was no sense of community between the people and the church. There was only fear.

I would like to hear from practising Catholics, with no axe to grind against the Church - is this true?

Was there ONLY fear?

I need to at least try to be humble here.

My parents and grandparents were not here. I did not grow up here. I do not know what you know.

However, I have tried to listen to many elderly Catholics and while I have been told things like this, I have more often been told differently.

I wish there were some over 60, even over 70s posting here.

If anyone from that generation is here, please speak ...

lazygal

Roger Buck wrote: »

Was there ONLY fear?

Yes. My grandfather lived in fear of his donation to the church being belittled from the alter and his brother's suicide being 'discovered', which led to his death being classed as an 'accident' for many years. Stillborn births were greatly feared, as the baby would be in limbo. Both my parents recall the fear of nuns and brothers in school, whose snobbery and elitism outshone any 'christian' attitudes. My grandmother lived in fear of her children being sent to 'industrial schools' when her husband died and then lived in fear of the 'shame' her son's psyhiatric problems caused, meaning he dropped out of the seminary.

No positive stories about religion at all, apart from ceremonies for hatches, matches and dispatches, have come from them.

Roger Buck

Lazygal - I wonder if you are a PRACTICING Catholic - someone with no axe to grind against the Church - such as I asked for?

For I have heard all kinds of positive stories.

If anyone further posts in reply to me, could you please say whether you are practicing Catholic, going weekly to Mass or not?

lazygal

Roger Buck wrote: »

Lazygal - I wonder if you are a PRACTICING Catholic - someone with no axe to grind against the Church - such as I asked for?

For I have heard all kinds of positive stories.

If anyone further posts in reply to me, could you please say whether you are practicing Catholic, going weekly to Mass or not?

Em, you don't control who gets to post. I'll post my experience, thanks.

Sounds like you only want to hear from people who'll back up your 'things were so much better in the olden days, when everyone went to mass and people were kinder' thesis, but that's not how discussion boards work.

Roger Buck

I had no intention to exclude you or your experience Lazygal. I only asked for people to identify their positions.

If you will read through my earlier posts, I think you may appreciate I am reading hundreds of pages from people speaking along your lines.

I am also reading hundreds of pages of the opposite.

It is very important to listen to both sides.

OP you might as well blame electric light, the Late Late Show or the EU as much as America.

A story from my village - unbabtised babies weren't allowed to be buried in the catholic (only) cemetery so they were buried in a mound in the corner of a field. I don't know when the rules were changed but the mound became neglected and overgrown. It is only recently that the burial mound was marked and tidied up.

I don't want to return to a time that forced grieving parents to bury their child in shame in the corner of a field.

nagirrac

For full disclosure I am neither a practicing nor non-practicing Catholic. However I was raised in a Catholic family in Ireland and would be not too far from the bottom end of your requested age range, so this is my 2c. There is a huge distinction by the way between Catholics raised in the Republic and Catholics raised in Northern Ireland, so if you are getting some of your inputs from NI Catholics (based on your location being Ulster), it may not be necessarily typical of the Republic. The RCC did not have a privileged position in NI.

Fear is not a strong enough word, the Catholic church instilled terror in people. If you fell foul of the RCC in Ireland you may as well emigrate, and many did. In my opinion the RCC in Ireland was an example of "power corrupting and absolute power absolutely corrupting". However, I would also argue that by and large Ireland was a good country to grow up in and raise kids in (and still is) and that by and large it was a just and kind society to most. I would attribute this to two factors, the fact that the indigenous Irish had been oppressed for centuries by a cruel and heartless colonical power and thus felt a great kinship with each other, and a genuine Christian outlook that had prevailed for many centuries. I didn't experience it myself but from the older generation I learned that in many parts of rural Ireland in the 20s - 40s there was essentially no money in circulation and significant numbers lived through barter and helping each other out. I did see this in the local farming community growing up where helping your neighbor and being helped in return was the norm. Maybe I was lucky but I genuinely never saw an act of cruelty to another human and saw countless examples of selfless behavior.

There is no question some people were treated very cruelly, largely due to the influence of the RCC, but the state has to also share the blame. However, in my view we have to put this in the context of the time, and in particular weigh it up against what our neighbors in Europe were up to. It would be interesting to know how many homosexuals were actually jailed in Ireland, in a period when they were being rounded up and sent to the gas chamber all over Nazi occupied Europe. While passive discrimination against non-Catholics existed in the Republic, in the NI state governed by our near neighbors, >40% of the population were actively discriminated against in voting rights, education, and employment. The worst abuses in Ireland were what went on in the industrial schools, which were a British "gift" established in the mid 19th century.

I think for balance we have to keep in mind that Irleand was a desperately poor fledgling state that had had its resources systematically raped for centuries, no restitution for which was ever paid for (contrast with what Germany ended up paying in restitution after WWII), in fact in the early decades of the state we were still paying rent for our own land. In that environment it was a society ripe for the influence of the church. Something that is quite ironic on the topic of excommunication btw is that those that fought and died for Irish freedom were subject to the same censure, and the RCC ended up the big winner when independence was secured.

Somewhere along the way Republican ideas got a little lost and the Wolfe Tone inspired ideals of the leaders of 1916 of "religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunites for all its citizens" (unheard of in much of Europe at the time, in particluar in Britain where women could not vote) and the promise to cherish "all of the children of the nation equally" did not fully come up pass. I would argue though that Ireland did not do too badly, given its circumstances, and in particular when you contrast its 20th century history with most of Europe.

A Republic is something worth fighting for and fighting to maintain, maintaining the influence of a church over society is not.

Zombrex

Roger Buck wrote: »

I regularly ask the older generation here in Ireland.

I meet many, many people who say Ireland was much better in the past ...

I have met the opposite too. More rarely.

I'm sure you do, but you can't really draw much of conclusion by simply going on numbers.

After all you might ask 10 Americans if the 1950s were better than now, and 8 of them might say yes and 2 of them might say no. So if you just went based on that you might say well it was a better time.

Of course if you reveal that those 2 Americans are black and that in the 1950s they were regularly the subject to verbal and physical assault for being black, that changes the picture some what. No matter how happy or oblivious the 8 other Americans were to this, the fact that America had institutionalized racism as part of its culture in the 1950s means it cannot be considered a better time that now, even if that only directly effected 2 out of every 10 Americans. Nor no matter how fondly people who weren't effected by this remember the era.

If have to look at the institutions and the cultural/social structures in place at the time, and ask how did they apply to all citizens, not just the majority. Because often the majority do relatively ok in any particular period in time, it is the assessment of the persecution and oppression of minorities that is the ultimate judge of a culture or time period.

Paramite Pie

Roger Buck wrote: »

Paramite Pie, thank you for telling me of your grandmother's experience. I hear this and need to hear it.

I would like to hear from practising Catholics, with no axe to grind against the Church - is this true?

Was there ONLY fear?

My grandmother was a practicing Catholic up until the day she died. My parents are still practicing Catholics and when they told stories of priests in the past they were usually intimidating figures. Nowadays one could go to a priest for advice or a sympathetic ear but the Church was simply unapproachable in the past as far as I can understand. They were often above the Law.

That doesn't mean there weren't genuinely nice priests in the past but I've mostly heard of the bad ones and am told of how far the Church has come in that regard. It was so different then.

My grandmother was born in 1921 so there are few people alive who would remember her era.

You mention you've heard many positive stories, but how many of these people are remembering the good days (community spirit) and not talking about the bad days (school beatings, which were not just done by priests but lay people too).

The older population now must experience culture shock here on a daily basis as the world has moved on. Most people they know/knew growing up are now dead and they struggle to relate to the younger generation (and vice versa). They're socially isolated from the community as their offspring may be living far away, so they will likely have fonder memories of the past than the present.

My Dad says he had the best of both worlds but he'd much rather the modern Church as it is today!