New reference year for Single Farm Payment?

Eoghan Barra

Hi folks,

what reference year do you think they are going to use for the new Single Farm Payment regime that's due to come in in 2015?

Will it be 2012?

bob charles

It could be this year, rent land at any cost :rolleyes:

towzer2010

bob charles wrote: »

It could be this year, rent land at any cost :rolleyes:

Bob as my granny used to say "you're an awful devil...":D

yellow50HX

no one really knows.

from what i can make out each country will get a ceratin amount and can select how they choose to divide it. it seems that you build up your entilements over a reference peroid and then your future payments will be based on these etilments dived by the amount of land you claim each year. there have been so many different reports of how and when it'll be implemented that it could be completly different. this seems to be the one that comes up most often though.

as for the refernce year, that can be 1 year or an avergae over a number of years. most likely coveny will wait to see which year/years suits himself and his paymasters before telling everyone else. i know of lads that have gambled on taking extra land/stock this year in anticipation.

Eoghan Barra

Thanks for the replies.

As someone who is about to get into farming for the first time, and who is trying to figure it all out, I must say the idea of basing everything on a reference year for years after, regardless of the changes in land ownership/leasing etc. that take place in the meantime, seems bonkers and very unfair. Why aren't farmers assessed and paid on a yearly basis? Too much of a headache for the bureaucrats?

yellow50HX

Eoghan Barra wrote: »

Thanks for the replies.

As someone who is about to get into farming for the first time, and who is trying to figure it all out, I must say the idea of basing everything on a reference year for years after, regardless of the changes in land ownership/leasing etc. that take place in the meantime, seems bonkers and very unfair. Why aren't farmers assessed and paid on a yearly basis? Too much of a headache for the bureaucrats?

if your taking over land then there should be entiliements with it. you should get these transfered to you. it does take up a large amount of time and resources to put to gether the SFP for the whole of europe each year so updating the leigable land each farmer has each year over a numebr of years makes it much more manageble. doing it from scratch each year would proably cost as much as the payments to the famers.

Eoghan Barra

yellow50HX wrote: »

if your taking over land then there should be entiliements with it. you should get these transfered to you. it does take up a large amount of time and resources to put to gether the SFP for the whole of europe each year so updating the leigable land each farmer has each year over a numebr of years makes it much more manageble. doing it from scratch each year would proably cost as much as the payments to the famers.

Fair enough, I can see your point.

We bought a small farm a few years ago, it's all very rough land and hill commonage. At the time of the last reference year (2001?) the land wasn't being used as the owner had died without leaving a will, so it couldn't be sold.

Since buying the place we have been busy trying to get planning permission and then building, so the land has been leased out to neighbours in those few years.

As the leases come to an end over the next few months, we'll start putting a few sheep of our own on the land - I'll be starting small, as I've a lot to learn. Anyway, by next May, when the forms have to be in, we'll be up and running. But it looks as though the SFP will be out for us until 2020, 2030, or whenever they decide to overhaul the system again (?).

kowtow

Eoghan Barra wrote: »

Thanks for the replies.

As someone who is about to get into farming for the first time, and who is trying to figure it all out, I must say the idea of basing everything on a reference year for years after, regardless of the changes in land ownership/leasing etc. that take place in the meantime, seems bonkers and very unfair. Why aren't farmers assessed and paid on a yearly basis? Too much of a headache for the bureaucrats?

We're in the same position and it makes very little sense.

Being in my early forties I'm too old to be a (young) new entrant ! - I did buy a couple of entitlements with the land (all that the previous occupant could spare) but they now look as though they might be valueless after this coming year, if I can get round to completing all the forms in time to get something in this year at all.

Presumably you - or I - will be free to buy entitlements under the new system, as we are now - if we don't want to wait for the National reserve.

But the whole system is a nonsense. If it's linked to land then there should be an entitlement for every hectare in the country, capable of activation (in any given year) by someone who qualifies as an active farmer - whatever that may be. The system at present is deliberately structured to do the opposite of what it purports to do.

grazeaway

kowtow wrote: »

We're in the same position and it makes very little sense.

Being in my early forties I'm too old to be a (young) new entrant ! - I did buy a couple of entitlements with the land (all that the previous occupant could spare) but they now look as though they might be valueless after this coming year, if I can get round to completing all the forms in time to get something in this year at all.

Presumably you - or I - will be free to buy entitlements under the new system, as we are now - if we don't want to wait for the National reserve.

But the whole system is a nonsense. If it's linked to land then there should be an entitlement for every hectare in the country, capable of activation (in any given year) by someone who qualifies as an active farmer - whatever that may be. The system at present is deliberately structured to do the opposite of what it purports to do.

leasing a farm that was in dairy back in the reference years. only entitlement on it are from a small bit land land the farmer had in tillage in those years. so havent really had a SFP as part of my income but any few bob helps. covers the cost of the straw i use.

Eoghan Barra

kowtow wrote: »

- if we don't want to wait for the National reserve.

kowtow,

unfortunately to benefit from the national reserve substitute for the SFP, I think one of the requirements is that you have done a Fetac course, which takes a few years, afaik. Maybe this requirement will change under the new regime, but I very much doubt it.

I'm in complete agreement with everything you say otherwise: it's frustrating and lacks fairness. Though I can see the truth in yellow50HX's comments too.

kowtow

Eoghan Barra wrote: »

kowtow,

unfortunately to benefit from the national reserve substitute for the SFP, I think one of the requirements is that you have done a Fetac course, which takes a few years, afaik. Maybe this requirement will change under the new regime, but I very much doubt it.

I think you're right.

I suspect a lot of grant-aid will carry this condition in future. When you've gone to the trouble of inventing an industry (agri-regulation) and employing so many people in it, you need something to keep them all busy.

I'm beginning to think I might have to become educated in my retirement..

Username John

kowtow wrote: »

We're in the same position and it makes very little sense.

Being in my early forties I'm too old to be a (young) new entrant ! - I did buy a couple of entitlements with the land (all that the previous occupant could spare) but they now look as though they might be valueless after this coming year, if I can get round to completing all the forms in time to get something in this year at all.

kowtow wrote: »

I think you're right.
I'm beginning to think I might have to become educated in my retirement..

Retired in your early 40s... nice...

kowtow

Username John wrote: »

Retired in your early 40s... nice...

Old age & weak mindedness strike very early in my family... and doing something constructive at home avoids the risk of getting lost on the way to work.

Eoghan Barra

kowtow wrote: »

I'm beginning to think I might have to become educated in my retirement..

Are you thinking of doing the Fetac course?

freedominacup

Eoghan Barra wrote: »

Are you thinking of doing the Fetac course?

The taxmans definition of what constitutes a qualified farmer would be as stringient as anyones. Google form sd2b (a revenue leaflet) and look up educational qualifications. If you have a fetac level 6 course or higher completed ( it could be in hairdressing it doesn't matter) a teagasc 180 hour course is all you need to "qualify" as a trained farmer. So basically 4 weeks fulltime or probably a winter of night classes.If either of you gentlemen are in possession of a diploma or degree I'm rerasonably certain that all you will require is the 180 hours.

freedominacup

kowtow wrote: »

We're in the same position and it makes very little sense.

Being in my early forties I'm too old to be a (young) new entrant ! - I did buy a couple of entitlements with the land (all that the previous occupant could spare) but they now look as though they might be valueless after this coming year, if I can get round to completing all the forms in time to get something in this year at all.

Presumably you - or I - will be free to buy entitlements under the new system, as we are now - if we don't want to wait for the National reserve.

But the whole system is a nonsense. If it's linked to land then there should be an entitlement for every hectare in the country, capable of activation (in any given year) by someone who qualifies as an active farmer - whatever that may be. The system at present is deliberately structured to do the opposite of what it purports to do.

Don't get us started again it was.......:eek:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056890172

..........prolonged, protracted and persistent. I think everyone gave up punch drunk in the end.

Eoghan Barra

freedominacup wrote: »

If either of you gentlemen are in possession of a diploma or degree I'm rerasonably certain that all you will require is the 180 hours.

Very interesting, freedominacup, thanks a million for your input. I did a masters in the past - not hairdressing, but something no more relevant to farming - so I will be checking this out.

But the issue at hand here is not so much the taxman's definition of a farmer, but new entrants' eligibility to access national reserve funding when not eligible for the SFP. Are you saying that the taxman's definition of a farmer and the requirements for the national reserve fund 'SFP' might be equivalent?

kowtow

As far as I am aware the taxman's definition of a farmer (for CAT at least) is that 80% of your assets are in farming - perhaps including the farmhouse.

I accept that defining an active farmer is hard - and that in itself presents a problem for entitlements / SFP - but any system which allows entitlements to be separated from land, makes things ten times worse.

When we had quota extensively - it was fungible and tradeable - which makes sense because the livestock which fulfill it are also mobile and tradeable, not to mention prone to living and dying. It had to be possible to transfer quota from one cow to another.

But in so far as land is a means of production, it isn't born, doesn't die, and cannot be moved or removed (ask the govt. why they are so keen on property taxes!) - and therefore any support payment related to it ought properly to relate to a specific identifiable hectare.

However - as others have said - this is a debate which has been done to death. I am strongly tempted to follow America's most profitable farmers - the Amish - and refuse to accept subsidy of any kind.

.. now where did I put that buggy harness?

freedominacup

Eoghan Barra wrote: »

Very interesting, freedominacup, thanks a million for your input. I did a masters in the past - not hairdressing, but something no more relevant to farming - so I will be checking this out.

But the issue at hand here is not so much the taxman's definition of a farmer, but new entrants' eligibility to access national reserve funding when not eligible for the SFP. Are you saying that the taxman's definition of a farmer and the requirements for the national reserve fund 'SFP' might be equivalent?

I reckon the taxmans bar would be higher.

Eoghan Barra

freedominacup wrote: »

[/B]

I reckon the taxmans bar would be higher.

Where do you think it would be possible to find out exactly what's required (i.e. educational requirements to qualify for the national reserve fund)?

freedominacup

Eoghan Barra wrote: »

Where do you think it would be possible to find out exactly what's required (i.e. educational requirements to qualify for the national reserve fund)?

If you want a complicated answer ring the dept. I'd say teagasc would be a good bet. If you have a masters level qualification then you are home and hosed. My qualifications are hardly considered equivalent to LC standard by HETAC at this stage but more than adequate nonetheless. They could never stand over a ridiculous situation where degree qualified people were being excluded from a scheme where people with a qualification requiring a forrest gump level IQ to pass the exams were considered amply qualified. Hence the 180 hour fig leaf.

SD2A or SD2 are the leaflets you require depending on how old you are. They are tightening the requiremennts all the time but they can't do it retrospectively. If it wasnt a reg when you were in college/training then it doesn't apply to you. Look a the paragraph transitional arrangements.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=revenue+leaflet+sd2b&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

SD2B will give you no comfort and the older leaflets are harder to get your hands on though most Teagasc offices should have them as should your solicitor.

Eoghan Barra

freedominacup wrote: »

...you are home and hosed.

Oh, that life were so simple and easy!

Somehow I doubt that they won't be making it just as ridiculously complicated and difficult as they possibly can... or is that just me being paranoid? Anyway, I'll definitely be following this up regardless.

Thanks a lot for your replies, freedominacup, much obliged.

nashmach

While freedominacup has summed it up well in his replies above, be aware that it is not as easy as the 180 hour course any longer and will now require a more intensive course either online or part-time at a local centre/ag college.

freedominacup

nashmach wrote: »

While freedominacup has summed it up well in his replies above, be aware that it is not as easy as the 180 hour course any longer and will now require a more intensive course either online or part-time at a local centre/ag college.

It will depend when you qualified. If the 180 hour course/or some new course wasn't available when you were training it can't( as i understand it) be made a criteria for you to comply with.

reilig

freedominacup wrote: »

It will depend when you qualified. If the 180 hour course/or some new course wasn't available when you were training it can't( as i understand it) be made a criteria for you to comply with.

I think Nashmash was saying that the "handy" 180 hour course is no longer available. It has been replaced by a course which is far more intensive. The 180 hour course had really only about 30 hours contact, wheras the newer course has 150 hours of direct contact, all of which has to be accounted for. When you compare what you were supposed to spend your time at in the old 180 hour course along with the new course, then it fair to say that you are looking at a minimum of 300 hours for the new course.

nashmach

reilig wrote: »

I think Nashmash was saying that the "handy" 180 hour course is no longer available. It has been replaced by a course which is far more intensive. The 180 hour course had really only about 30 hours contact, wheras the newer course has 150 hours of direct contact, all of which has to be accounted for. When you compare what you were supposed to spend your time at in the old 180 hour course along with the new course, then it fair to say that you are looking at a minimum of 300 hours for the new course.

My point exactly, reilig, thanks. :cool:

berettaman

Thank for the info so far in a great thread. I am wrestling with this myself. I am starting to farm land that was previously leased out to a lad who has since passed on so I have not got a clue where the entiltlements are...
I thought there might be a form for new entants but no...:rolleyes:

It is all about transfers but does this mean transfer from a non related deceased person??

I really do not know what to do so I think I will just have to send in a form and see what happens. Very hard to get a straight answer from department or teagasc. People say they will call me back but never do..

Any advice or ideas would be really appreciated and apologies to the OP. I don't mean to hijack the thread but it is broadly similar..

Eoghan Barra

berettaman wrote: »

Any advice or ideas would be really appreciated and apologies to the OP. I don't mean to hijack the thread but it is broadly similar..

No need to apologise, berettaman, I'm learning from everything that's been posted here so far.

nhg

berettaman wrote: »

I am starting to farm land that was previously leased out to a lad who has since passed on so I have not got a clue where the entiltlements are...


It is all about transfers but does this mean transfer from a non related deceased person??



All that I can tell you, if of any use, is that when a person dies, the Entitlements are attached to the House & not the land, so basically whoever gets the house in the will, unless specified differently in the will, gets the Entitlements!

So basically whoever was left the house (if not farming themselves)might be happy to sell the number of entitlements to match the land (that's assuming that the man had entitlements for that land). I know lots of lads farming who have no entitlements.

rodrigo de triano

Any update on when the reference year will be?

berettaman

nhg wrote: »

berettaman wrote: »

I am starting to farm land that was previously leased out to a lad who has since passed on so I have not got a clue where the entiltlements are...


It is all about transfers but does this mean transfer from a non related deceased person??



All that I can tell you, if of any use, is that when a person dies, the Entitlements are attached to the House & not the land, so basically whoever gets the house in the will, unless specified differently in the will, gets the Entitlements!

So basically whoever was left the house (if not farming themselves)might be happy to sell the number of entitlements to match the land (that's assuming that the man had entitlements for that land). I know lots of lads farming who have no entitlements.

Thanks for that. Like I said. He was just a local farmer that used to rent the fields that I now live in and on. When He passed his family never took the land again and never made contact. I want to get going with a few cattle and I was hoping to apply. Talk about a can of worms though...

ABlur

Lads will ye go away and buy a few entitlements! Theres no national reserve and none freely available unless they were gifted to you with the land. Page 47 of the journal has auctioneers contcts and closing date is May 15th so ye need to get moving.

kevthegaff

when i started 5 yrs ago i applied and received a good few entitlements through the reserve, i had just finished the 180 hr course as i had a degree. I think i got in at the right time with reps and installation aid around the same time, it was the farming scheme boom at the time!:D

grazeaway

kevthegaff wrote: »

when i started 5 yrs ago i applied and received a good few entitlements through the reserve, i had just finished the 180 hr course as i had a degree. I think i got in at the right time with reps and installation aid around the same time, it was the farming scheme boom at the time!:D

how did you mange to swing that? i applied for entitlements as well when i started off around the same time and was politley told to shag off

kowtow

ABlur wrote: »

Lads will ye go away and buy a few entitlements! Theres no national reserve and none freely available unless they were gifted to you with the land. Page 47 of the journal has auctioneers contcts and closing date is May 15th so ye need to get moving.

You've put your finger on the problem from my perspective at least.

Bought land last year, so nothing claimed before then. Bought a couple of entitlements with it (high value - all there was to spare, and paid well for them)..

No point, at least in the short term, trying to go to the National reserve for all the reasons outlined above.

So why buy entitlements now? On the off-chance that this year will prove to be a reference year, despite the fact that we were claiming in no prior year?

Is there any suggestion that entitlements won't be available to buy after CAP reform? If not, it might make more sense to do something more productive than filling in forms and buy whatever entitlements are needed in future years when their real present value can be better established..

Eoghan Barra

ABlur wrote: »

Lads will ye go away and buy a few entitlements! Theres no national reserve and none freely available unless they were gifted to you with the land. Page 47 of the journal has auctioneers contcts and closing date is May 15th so ye need to get moving.

Can anyone give an explanation for idiots of how the whole buying entitlements thing works?

What is the relationship between what you pay for them and the extra SFP earnings as a result?

For example here someone was selling 49.34 entitlements for 9.5k: http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/otherfarming/5000175. I presume that means entitlements to SFP for 49.34 hA? How much extra income would that bring in SFP per year?

kowtow

Eoghan Barra wrote: »

Can anyone give an explanation for idiots of how the whole buying entitlements thing works?

What is the relationship between what you pay for them and the extra SFP earnings as a result?

For example here someone was selling 49.34 entitlements for 9.5k: http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/otherfarming/5000175. I presume that means entitlements to SFP for 49.34 hA? How much extra income would that bring in SFP per year?

Depends on the value of the entitlements (AFAIK). I bought entitlements worth €360, I think, per Ha.

At some point someone told me that the going rate for entitlements was 1.5 (or even 2?) times face value, which I would have thought was uneconomical if the income stream is to end in a year or two.

On the other hand, the present clamour to buy low value entitlements must be driven by an expectation that they will be somehow transformed into higher value entitlements when reform kicks in. This is logical, but from my own point of view - having not farmed at all in 2011/2012 I don't see how this could be of any value unless the current (new) SFP year is to be the reference year.

rancher

kowtow wrote: »

Depends on the value of the entitlements (AFAIK). I bought entitlements worth €360, I think, per Ha.

At some point someone told me that the going rate for entitlements was 1.5 (or even 2?) times face value, which I would have thought was uneconomical if the income stream is to end in a year or two.

On the other hand, the present clamour to buy low value entitlements must be driven by an expectation that they will be somehow transformed into higher value entitlements when reform kicks in. This is logical, but from my own point of view - having not farmed at all in 2011/2012 I don't see how this could be of any value unless the current (new) SFP year is to be the reference year.

The proposal of a minimum payment of €200/ha looks like its going to be a runner so anyone that bought entitlements of less than that looks like they're going to be a gain....... oh and if your entitlements are over €300 you're going to lose

kowtow

rancher wrote: »

The proposal of a minimum payment of €200/ha looks like its going to be a runner so anyone that bought entitlements of less than that looks like they're going to be a gain....... oh and if your entitlements are over €300 you're going to lose

Absolutely. But if - as a new entrant - I bought land & entitlements in 2012, the first time I can use them is this coming year. If the reference year is set earlier than that presumably I'm back to square one with no entitlements at all - so I might as well buy what I need once the new landscape is clear (leaving aside new entrant schemes etc.)

Unless I am missing something.