Small test rail Connolly-Parkwest

trellheim

Concept : improve access to West Dublin industrial estates from DART Corridor


initial proposal : 1 service departs Connolly @0800 using commuter or a spare ICS set , travel Drumcondra , parkwest, fonthill .

Intent is to see if there is demand to serve Parkwest etc by providing a 1-change from the DART instead of sitting in traffic on the M50

If it got any traction could look at it further, little effort to try it out

With Varadkar in DOT hint hint why not !

Con Logue

trellheim wrote: »

Concept : improve access to West Dublin industrial estates from DART Corridor


initial proposal : 1 service departs Connolly @0800 using commuter or a spare ICS set , travel Drumcondra , parkwest, fonthill .

Intent is to see if there is demand to serve Parkwest etc by providing a 1-change from the DART instead of sitting in traffic on the M50

If it got any traction could look at it further, little effort to try it out

With Varadkar in DOT hint hint why not !

Sure you might as well extend that to Adamstown and Hazelhatch as there are turnaround facilities there. I'd also go one further and kill the paid parking, arguably one of CIE's bigger mistakes.

daheff

Con Logue wrote: »

Sure you might as well extend that to Adamstown and Hazelhatch as there are turnaround facilities there. I'd also go one further and kill the paid parking, arguably one of CIE's bigger mistakes.

Big +1 for me on this. A train direct to city centre & back makes so much more sense than the current one only to/from heuston.


as for paid parking...its a stupid idea. They always go on about how its the norm in Europe...i can say that its not. Go to Germany (Munich) and take a look there. PArk and ride facilities are free.

The idea is to get people onto the trains from their cars...extra expense takes people OUT of trains.

daheff

I think that the current rail set up isnt well thought out (I know thats not any kind of new idea!)


All lines go to the city centre/heuston. So if you live in South Dublin and want to go to West you have to travel to centre first and then change. If we had a ring rail line (like M50) it could travel around the city, taking people off the busier lines in peak hours. It would also open up more areas (Espec along M50) to train users and take cars off the roads.

dowlingm

Interesting thought. Finding a path out of Heuston P10 onto the mainline might be tricky at that time of day though! PPT line speed is 25mph so it's not necessarily going to be quick either. Also it's peak time so am not sure how many "spare" drivers are going to be available since nominally that should be the hardest time of day to find people.

For these kind of ideas I think companies and even industrial estates combined have to step up and do some demographic analysis and basically say to the NTA - "we have 2,000 people working here. 1,500 drive. Of those, 1,000 would consider not doing so. Of those, 300 live along the DART line. All three hundred have signed their names to a document which says they will buy an annual ticket if a service from Connolly is provided departing 0800 which gets into Parkwest by 0835" or whatever.

daheff - blame the 1800s versions of the PDs who had competing railway companies build their own terminuses.

BenShermin

AMC buses go from Aston Quay to Parkwest in a little over 20mins, timetable here: http://www.amconline.ie/RouteDetails.asp?a=timetable&t=&id=4

Would a train using the Phoenix Park tunnel be even able to beat that time? Remember at rush hour the buses are going against traffic. There's also the problem that some genius in IÈ decided to close the old Cherry Orchard Station and build a new one on the complete outskirts of the Parkwest Estate. Finally, would there be enough slots in Connolly to handle this service at rush hour?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a marvellous idea, but it's an idea that once again shows this city's crippling need for the interconnector.

LeftBlank

BenShermin wrote: »

There's also the problem that some genius in IÈ decided to close the old Cherry Orchard Station and build a new one on the complete outskirts of the Parkwest Estate.

I was under the impression that the new station is closer to the business park than the old one?

Con Logue

BenShermin wrote: »

AMC buses go from Aston Quay to Parkwest in a little over 20mins, timetable here: http://www.amconline.ie/RouteDetails.asp?a=timetable&t=&id=4

Would a train using the Phoenix Park tunnel be even able to beat that time? Remember at rush hour the buses are going against traffic. There's also the problem that some genius in IÈ decided to close the old Cherry Orchard Station and build a new one on the complete outskirts of the Parkwest Estate. Finally, would there be enough slots in Connolly to handle this service at rush hour?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a marvellous idea, but it's an idea that once again shows this city's crippling need for the interconnector.

Yes, very much agree that the interconnector (aka DART Underground) is badly needed but the OPs idea is a quick and relatively cheap fix for the foreseeable future. I don't think there are no paths available and maybe two or three trains could be slotted in at peak each way to cater. I take your point about the AMC bus but the OP wants a seamless transfer from the DART and Aston Quay wouldn't be that. I am also skeptical of a twenty minute journey by bus at peak.

BenShermin

LeftBlank wrote: »

I was under the impression that the new station is closer to the business park than the old one?

It's close enough to the business park and an appartment complex but it is still on the edge of the complex as a whole. If you're working in a factory/office towards the Ballyfermot end of the industrial estate the train station could be up to a kilometre away.

The old station also served the huge residential area of Cherry Orchard, these residents would have switched from bus to Dart if the interconnector was built. Ideally both stations could have been kept, with the quick acceleration of Dart two stations in close proximity would be no problem.

BenShermin

Con Logue wrote: »

Yes, very much agree that the interconnector (aka DART Underground) is badly needed but the OPs idea is a quick and relatively cheap fix for the foreseeable future. I don't think there are no paths available and maybe two or three trains could be slotted in at peak each way to cater. I take your point about the AMC bus but the OP wants a seamless transfer from the DART and Aston Quay wouldn't be that. I am also skeptical of a twenty minute journey by bus at peak.

Extend the AMC bus to Tara Street station so, that would make for a quick and seamless transfer. Unlike Dublin Bus's 79a route, AMC takes a very direct route which would take between 20mins to 25mins going against rush hour traffic.

trellheim

The idea is for Dart Corridor easy change to get to the Parkwest/Adamstown ( yes meant to extend to turnbacks ) industrial complexes, if you time it right you can replace the 0830 Heuston-Portlaoise stopper with this puppy, take it from POV of Raheny or Booterstown, to drive to these industrial estates requires a long fight through suburbia.

So it would be a single platform change at Connolly, undercover. #nobrainer for IE to give it a 6 month trial to see if there's uptake. If not then lesson learned.

Con Logue

BenShermin wrote: »

AMC buses go from Aston Quay to Parkwest in a little over 20mins, timetable here: http://www.amconline.ie/RouteDetails.asp?a=timetable&t=&id=4

Would a train using the Phoenix Park tunnel be even able to beat that time? Remember at rush hour the buses are going against traffic. There's also the problem that some genius in IÈ decided to close the old Cherry Orchard Station and build a new one on the complete outskirts of the Parkwest Estate. Finally, would there be enough slots in Connolly to handle this service at rush hour?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a marvellous idea, but it's an idea that once again shows this city's crippling need for the interconnector.

Just looked at the AMC website, is it only possible to buy a weekly ticket and not on the bus? Seems very inflexible for a bus service.

LXFlyer

Well you can also get the Dublin Bus route 79a.

Con Logue

lxflyer wrote: »

Well you can also get the Dublin Bus route 79a.

Entirely true and the 79a would have flexible ticketing which the AMC bus appears to lack, but what would be the time at peak from Park West to O'Connell Bridge and vice versa?

BenShermin

Con Logue wrote: »

Just looked at the AMC website, is it only possible to buy a weekly ticket and not on the bus? Seems very inflexible for a bus service.

Last time I used the service I was able to buy a ticket off the driver. I'll admit that was around three years ago, though I don't see why that would have changed.

Con Logue

BenShermin wrote: »

Last time I used the service I was able to buy a ticket off the driver. I'll admit that was around three years ago, though I don't see why that would have changed.

Thanks for that. I am interested in road testing the journey times at some point.

BenShermin

Con Logue wrote: »

what would be the time at peak from Park West to O'Connell Bridge and vice versa?

One word; slow!

The 79a takes a tour of Ballyfermot's resdential estates before getting to Parkwest. You're looking at 35 to 40mins at peak. The AMC on the other hand goes non-stop to Parkwest using the main roads.

Con L., I'll drop AMC an e-mail to get more info on fares. Certainly their website has changed in the last few years, I hope they didn't change their fare system aswell.

LXFlyer

As regards the station location, it is now adjacent to the apartments and business park rather than beside one part of the industrial park and Cherry Orchard estate, and one had to walk through the latter to exit the station.

As someone who did use the old station I would respectfully suggest that it was frankly Broombridge Mk 2. The locals used it as a drinking location and the shelters were burnt out.

It was a disaster zone.

The new location is a far better one.

MGWR

dowlingm wrote: »

Interesting thought. Finding a path out of Heuston P10 onto the mainline might be tricky at that time of day though! PPT line speed is 25mph so it's not necessarily going to be quick either. Also it's peak time so am not sure how many "spare" drivers are going to be available since nominally that should be the hardest time of day to find people.

For these kind of ideas I think companies and even industrial estates combined have to step up and do some demographic analysis and basically say to the NTA - "we have 2,000 people working here. 1,500 drive. Of those, 1,000 would consider not doing so. Of those, 300 live along the DART line. All three hundred have signed their names to a document which says they will buy an annual ticket if a service from Connolly is provided departing 0800 which gets into Parkwest by 0835" or whatever.

daheff - blame the 1800s versions of the PDs who had competing railway companies build their own terminuses.

So what induces the 25 mph line speed through the PPT? With all due respect to all, welded rail with concrete sleepers takes a long time to bang so badly out of shape as to require such a slow line speed, and there has not been so much freight over this line as to make this happen. Looks like state ownership (and central planning) strikes out again.

If Docklands is a desirable destination, why was a connection from the PPT to that station not built for commuter trains, and especially as soon as it was clear that the Interconnector was strictly on the back burner?

BenShermin

lxflyer wrote: »

As someone who did use the old station I would respectfully suggest that it was frankly Broombridge Mk 2. The locals used it as a drinking location and the shelters were burnt out.

It was a disaster zone.

The new location is a far better one.

I used it quite frequently myself and I have to completely disagree, it was never as bad as Broombridge. It was actually quite a busy station in the evenings with people going from Parkwest to stations in County Kildare. I saw evidence of illegal drinking there, but IMO IÉ made no effort to clean that up.

The new station location is away from the huge residential area of Cherry Orchard who would patronise a train station very well if the interconnector was built, it is also of little use to anybody working on the East side of Parkwest.

There was definitely scope for two stations here. Ballyfermot must be the only area of large population with a train line running through it and yet no train stations serving it whatsoever. It's akin to the Dart not having any stations between Howth Junction and Clontarf Road because anything in-between is "working class".

foggy_lad

MGWR wrote: »

So what induces the 25 mph line speed through the PPT? With all due respect to all, welded rail with concrete sleepers takes a long time to bang so badly out of shape as to require such a slow line speed, and there has not been so much freight over this line as to make this happen. Looks like state ownership (and central planning) strikes out again.

If Docklands is a desirable destination, why was a connection from the PPT to that station not built for commuter trains, and especially as soon as it was clear that the Interconnector was strictly on the back burner?

It may be a risk of the tunnel collapsing from the vibration of trains passing through at greater speeds?

MGWR

foggy_lad wrote: »

It may be a risk of the tunnel collapsing from the vibration of trains passing through at greater speeds?

If such a risk was imminent (or if they arbitrarily decided it was), I suspect IE would be happy to close the tunnel and defer its repair/reopening.

Davidth88

lxflyer wrote: »

As regards the station location, it is now adjacent to the apartments and business park rather than beside one part of the industrial park and Cherry Orchard estate, and one had to walk through the latter to exit the station.

As someone who did use the old station I would respectfully suggest that it was frankly Broombridge Mk 2. The locals used it as a drinking location and the shelters were burnt out.

It was a disaster zone.

The new location is a far better one.

I second that .

It was very scary. One of the girls in our office was sexually attacked there .

LXFlyer

BenShermin wrote: »

I used it quite frequently myself and I have to completely disagree, it was never as bad as Broombridge. It was actually quite a busy station in the evenings with people going from Parkwest to stations in County Kildare. I saw evidence of illegal drinking there, but IMO IÉ made no effort to clean that up.

The new station location is away from the huge residential area of Cherry Orchard who would patronise a train station very well if the interconnector was built, it is also of little use to anybody working on the East side of Parkwest.

There was definitely scope for two stations here. Ballyfermot must be the only area of large population with a train line running through it and yet no train stations serving it whatsoever. It's akin to the Dart not having any stations between Howth Junction and Clontarf Road because anything in-between is "working class".

I would have to totally disagree with you. Frankly, once it became dark, the old station was a very undesirable place to be. As I said above, both shelters were completely burnt out, there were regular drinking parties by the local proletariat, and the final straw for me was when I was assaulted one evening while walking into the station. So forgive me if I do not see it through your rose tinted spectacles.

Closing it and moving it closer to the business park was a far more sensible solution as more people do now actually use it. I never saw any locals using it, and there was only limited use from people working in the industrial park, as the business park was too far away.

dowlingm

The line speed limit may be as simple as them not wanting to renew old track that at present sees what, a dozen passenger movements a year? The game plan was interconnector would handle crosscity traffic with Heuston handling intercity and P10 would be a dead letter. It would have been verging on irresponsible to do much more with PPT if IE didn't intend to use it. Now with interconnector on ice maybe some Big Thinking might happen at IE HQ. Not holding my breath though!

corktina

far too sensible idea....

Hungerford

dowlingm wrote: »

The line speed limit may be as simple as them not wanting to renew old track that at present sees what, a dozen passenger movements a year?

It's also quite a twisty route IIRC.

BenShermin

lxflyer wrote: »

I would have to totally disagree with you. Frankly, once it became dark, the old station was a very undesirable place to be. As I said above, both shelters were completely burnt out, there were regular drinking parties by the local proletariat, and the final straw for me was when I was assaulted one evening while walking into the station. So forgive me if I do not see it through your rose tinted spectacles.

Closing it and moving it closer to the business park was a far more sensible solution as more people do now actually use it. I never saw any locals using it, and there was only limited use from people working in the industrial park, as the business park was too far away.

I suppose it has nothing to do with the fact that the new station is staffed, has proper CCTV and ticket barriers etc?? Remember it's still only 1km away from the old station.

monument

BenShermin wrote: »

I suppose it has nothing to do with the fact that the new station is staffed, has proper CCTV and ticket barriers etc?? Remember it's still only 1km away from the old station.

Far nicer areas in each direction are only about 1km or less from Broombridge too.

MGWR

MGWR wrote: »

So what induces the 25 mph line speed through the PPT? With all due respect to all, welded rail with concrete sleepers takes a long time to bang so badly out of shape as to require such a slow line speed, and there has not been so much freight over this line as to make this happen. Looks like state ownership (and central planning) strikes out again.

If Docklands is a desirable destination, why was a connection from the PPT to that station not built for commuter trains, and especially as soon as it was clear that the Interconnector was strictly on the back burner?

The speed limit may just be due to the fact that the line isn't used for scheduled passenger services and therefore wouldn't really need a higher limit. They could probably increase the speed limits with relative ease. Speed limits aren't set higher than the rolling stock used on that line, this is why there's no 100mph stretches on the Belfast line.

My brother, who is a Garda, told me that security concerns due to the vicinity of the PPT to Garda HQ are one of the reasons why scheduled services don't run through it. How true this is, I don't know.

BenShermin

monument wrote: »

Far nicer areas in each direction are only about 1km or less from Broombridge too.

Even the new station is very close to a rough area of Cherry Orchard, the CCTV, staff and barriers keeps the scum away. The will simply wasn't there to maintain Cherry Orchard Station. When BXD is built will IÉ keep the status quo of having Broombridge a no-go area??

Kilbarrack Dart Station is a shining example of what can be done in a traditional working class area. It's a credit to both IÉ and the community, I believe the same could have been done for Cherry Orchard, it certainly HAS to be done to Broombridge ASAP!