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Wisdom from the Bruce

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  • 28-04-2013 8:34pm
    #1
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭


    Some of you may recall this line by the actor playing Robert the Bruce in the movie Braveheart:
    "From top to bottom this country has no sense of itself. Its nobles share loyalty with England and its Clans war with each other." He was speaking of Scotland of course but the same could just as easily have been said for Ireland.

    Indeed, every invasion of this country was made possible by the fact that the Irish lacked a shared vision and unity of purpose. The same conditions exist in this country today. Certain people seem incapable of thinking of anyone but themselves. Weather it is the residents of an estate who will not clean their neighborhood for fear the council won`t have to or weather it is the politicians who would rather see the country crippled with debt in the long term so they can enjoy the trappings of power and wealth in the short term. There are also people who would demand an end to austerity no matter what the cost and not a thought or a care for their children who they profess to love and who will be shackled like slaves to pay back the debt incurred by their their lazy, selfish, stupid, undisciplined parents.

    It is universally known that the most common ways in which a country can be conquered is with an army or through debt. Indeed, in the years prior to the act of union, Irish commerce languished as a direct consequence of cheap imports from England. Present day China is doing the same to the west and the only way we can regain our manufacturing base is by regaining our competitiveness. Short sighted economists like David McWilliams think that austerity is a bad idea because it will cause the economy to contract but what he and most other economists seem to ignore is that fact that austerity is the key to growing our competitiveness. Only by competing can Ireland have a future. To compete we need cheap labour and lots of it. In other words we need to burn the legislation on the minimum wage and let the market be the sole determinant of what the minimum wage should be. Next we need to cut public sector pay by 85% in order to justify a 75% cut in the dole. The dole should be limited to 6 months and recipients should be required to work for it. After 6 months, - food stamps.

    Opponents of austerity love to complain about everything but one of the things they like to complain about is the troika who they blame for austerity. Do these people realize that we would have even more austerity if the troika were not giving us money. This whinging would perhaps be understandable if the whingers were two year olds but in most cases they are adults. The sad part is we would be so much better off in the long term if the troika would buzz off altogether and stop giving us money - which will one day have to be paid back with interest. When that day comes the whingers really will have something to whinge about.


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    #2
    Wicklowandy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭Wicklowandy


    I just love these threads created with a lack of paragraphs and sense;)


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    #3
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Wicklowandy wrote: »
    I just love these threads created with a lack of paragraphs)
    There are paragraphs - should have gone to spec savers.


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    #4
    Wicklowandy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭Wicklowandy


    Thank you for editing in some paragraphs:)

    Doesn't unfortunately address the second concern;)


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    #5
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    So basically we start with a lecture on social solidarity and common purpose, and move swiftly on to crushing the lower orders. Lovely.


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    #6
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    goose2005 wrote: »
    So basically we start with a lecture on social solidarity and common purpose, and move swiftly on to crushing the lower orders. Lovely.
    Not necessarily. The "lower orders" as you call them are not only capable of great resilience but they are also keen advocates of austerity once they understand the reasoning behind it. Sadly, the real world does not conform with the way we would like it to be and so we must decide weather we would rather be German slaves or alternatively - free, frugal and philosophical.


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    #7
    Treehousetim
    Closed Accounts Posts: 89 ✭✭Treehousetim


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    Not necessarily. The "lower orders" as you call them are not only capable of great resilience but they are also keen advocates of austerity once they understand the reasoning behind it. Sadly, the real world does not conform with the way we would like it to be and so we must decide weather we would rather be German slaves or alternatively - free, frugal and philosophical.

    Are you smoking something tonight?


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    #8
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Treehousetim wrote: »
    Are you smoking something tonight?

    No - why do you ask?


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    #9
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,822 ✭✭✭amacca


    If the op imposed his/her brand of freedom and frugality on the citizens of this country I wonder how philosophical they would be about it?


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    #10
    johnr1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭johnr1


    I was with you up to the point where you started with the figures.

    Im as much in favour of public service cuts as the next guy, but we dont need and couldn't implement cuts like you suggest. The economic fallout would be too great, and besides, they dont deserve that level of cut. I'd support you at 20% to PS pay and numbers.

    I'd also support declining benefits for the unemployable wh refuse to educate themselves or make themselves employable, culminating in food stamps. I would not support a direct cut to the basic rate. This is what many decent people who want to work have to live on, and they should be left enough to live decently while they find another job.

    You have the right instinct about work ethic and accountability but most people don't share your willingness to take extreme measures in the short term on some vague promise of long term prosperity some time in the future. They may be right. China may implode on itself, War may breakout in Europe, The USA may go bust. Anything could happen and the thing which causes the next world economic or political shift is probably not even on our radar now.

    Try the middle ground OP.


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    #11
    LostInLM
    Registered Users Posts: 105 ✭✭LostInLM


    realitykeeper wrote: »
    Weather it is the residents of an estate who will not clean their neighborhood for fear the council won`t have to or weather it is the politicians who would rather see the country crippled with debt in the long term so they can enjoy the trappings of power and wealth in the short term. There are also people who would demand an end to austerity no matter what the cost and not a thought or a care for their children who they profess to love and who will be shackled like slaves to pay back the debt incurred by their their lazy, selfish, stupid, undisciplined parents.

    "Weather"

    Whether the weather be fine,
    Or whether the weather be not,
    Whether the weather be cold,
    Or whether the weather be hot,
    We'll weather the weather
    Whatever the weather,
    Whether we like it or not!

    Author: unknown


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    #12
    realitykeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    amacca wrote: »
    If the op imposed his/her brand of freedom and frugality on the citizens of this country I wonder how philosophical they would be about it?
    This is a very good question. I believe the process would involve 5 steps and it would be on the 5th step that people would become philosophical. Here are the 5 steps:

    1. Denial
    2. Anger
    3. Bargaining
    4. Depression
    5. Acceptance


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    #13
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    Another pro-austerity thread? The mythology of austerity being a positive has been debunked by prominent academics and economists.

    The answer to conquering Ireland's debt and austerity woes is nationalizing or at least significantly upping the tax rate on our vast natural resources of oil and gas. Also the 5 largest lead and zinc mine in the world is in Ireland but surprise surprise, the present government and Fianna Fáil before them have given them away for a pittance, which Sinn Féin stand against as we believe the natural resources of Ireland belong to the people of Ireland and the only people that should see any capital gains from our resources should not be those who represent corporate interests and profiteers but ourselves.

    Also I suggest you familiarize yourself with the Keynesian Effect, it is a feature of deficit spending and a principle that the government should never have neglected to use.


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    #14
    johnr1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭johnr1


    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    Another pro-austerity thread? The mythology of austerity being a positive has been debunked by prominent academics and economists.

    The answer to conquering Ireland's debt and austerity woes is nationalizing or at least significantly upping the tax rate on our vast natural resources of oil and gas. Also the 5 largest lead and zinc mine in the world is in Ireland but surprise surprise, the present government and Fianna Fáil before them have given them away for a pittance, which Sinn Féin stand against as we believe the natural resources of Ireland belong to the people of Ireland and the only people that should see any capital gains from our resources should not be those who represent corporate interests and profiteers but ourselves.

    Also I suggest you familiarize yourself with the Keynesian Effect, it is a feature of deficit spending and a principle that the government should never have neglected to use.

    Thankfully, you'll never have to back up any of your party's ludicrous policies with action as you won't be in government any time soon. You and the OP have more in common with each other than either of you do with the rest of us in the real world where is not possible to spend more than you've got, and thankfully also not possible to make people work for nothing.

    I think you and the OP should for a new party ;-) Screaming Lord Sutch might join up...


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    #15
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    johnr1 wrote: »
    Thankfully, you'll never have to back up any of your party's ludicrous policies with action as you won't be in government any time soon.

    You mean the policies that the anti-austerity elements within the IMF and prominent academics have endorsed?

    johnr1 wrote: »
    You and the OP have more in common with each other than either of you do with the rest of us in the real world where is not possible to spend more than you've got,

    Funny you mention that, isn't that what the government and people did during the Celtic Tiger which got us into this in the first place?
    johnr1 wrote: »
    and thankfully also not possible to make people work for nothing.

    When have myself or Sinn Féin said that people should work for nothing? Funny you mention that by the way, because isn't the present government demanding lower paid public servants to work longer hours for less money?

    In fact it is bad that Gardaí and nurses have to leave our shores. Guess what, we cannot replace those that do because of a hiring freeze.

    Run along and play now.


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    #16
    johnr1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭johnr1


    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    You mean the policies that the anti-austerity elements within the IMF and prominent academics have endorsed?




    Funny you mention that, isn't that what the government and people did during the Celtic Tiger which got us into this in the first place?



    When have myself or Sinn Féin said that people should work for nothing? Funny you mention that by the way, because isn't the present government demanding lower paid public servants to work longer hours for less money?

    In fact it is bad that Gardaí and nurses have to leave our shores. Guess what, we cannot replace those that do because of a hiring freeze.

    Run along and play now.

    First bit, - No, not those, I meant your party's looney economics.

    Second bit - Yes thats right, yet your party advocate spending even MORE money we don't have as a solution to this.

    Third bit, - that wasn't you, that was the OPs crazy plan.

    Finally, No I wont run along and play, your party's supporters do enough of that, - the rest of us work to keep them in the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed.


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