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DUP petition over homosexual marriage.

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  • 28-04-2013 7:08pm
    #1
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭


    I dont agree with the DUP on much at all but I would strongly support them on this issue. Why is Sinn Fein going against what Im sure their core vote in the north believe in order to impress the more "trendy" in the south?

    http://www.u.tv/news/DUP-petition-over-same-sex-marriage/64c43b19-8642-4a85-8468-eba94d667088

    "The DUP has tabled a petition of concern against a Sinn Féin motion calling for same sex marriage to be legalised in Northern Ireland.

    A debate on the motion is due to take place in the Assembly next week.

    However the petition of concern means it cannot be passed unless it receives cross-community support.

    DUP Chief Whip Peter Weir said the debate "will only result in further embarrassment for those parties and individuals who avoid telling the electorate where they stand".

    The first same sex civil partnership in the UK took place in Belfast in December 2005, but same sex marriage is still illegal.

    Earlier this year MPs backed a bill to make it law in England and Wales, but similar proposals for same sex marriage were rejected at Stormont last year."


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    #2
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    For the first time i can actually admire Sinn Fein in this regard. This has nothing to do with the "trendy" south as you put it but an issue of equality.

    Not surprise to see the DUP kick up a stink though.


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    #3
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Not sure on this one, I do believe same sex partnerships should be legally recognised and have the same protection as ' married ' couples. However as much as I believe homosexual couples should have the right to practice thier lifestyles I also believe people have the right to object to thier lifestyle choices. No issue if a church decides to hold a gay marrage but church's in general should not be forced to hold gay marriages, if a church refuses, it should not be dragged to courts for , because as gay couples should have the right to have thier lifestyles respected, christains and other religions have the right to have thier faiths respected to


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    #4
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    The law would relate civil marriage, not religious marriage.


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    #5
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    junder wrote: »
    ...I also believe people have the right to object to thier lifestyle choices.
    Leaving aside the well established fact that homosexuality is no more a lifestyle choice than heterosexuality is, do I have the right to object to straight people getting married?
    No issue if a church decides to hold a gay marrage but church's in general should not be forced to hold gay marriages, if a church refuses, it should not be dragged to courts for , because as gay couples should have the right to have thier lifestyles respected, christains and other religions have the right to have thier faiths respected to
    I don't think anyone wants to force churches to host gay marriages. If churches want to remain entrenched in the middle ages, away off with them.


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    #6
    1ZRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭1ZRed


    junder wrote: »
    Not sure on this one, I do believe same sex partnerships should be legally recognised and have the same protection as ' married ' couples. However as much as I believe homosexual couples should have the right to practice thier lifestyles I also believe people have the right to object to thier lifestyle choices. No issue if a church decides to hold a gay marrage but church's in general should not be forced to hold gay marriages, if a church refuses, it should not be dragged to courts for , because as gay couples should have the right to have thier lifestyles respected, christains and other religions have the right to have thier faiths respected to

    I'm gay and I agree with tha in part. The church has it's rules and it's their choice to allow same sex couples to marry or not. It works both ways though, gay people want to marry and get full equal rights the same as any heterosexual married couple but without any religious tie.

    It's a civil matter so the church has got nothing at all to do with it and should have no say in what they find acceptable or not if this is a purely civil issue.

    What happens in their institution, stays there. If I'm not religious i wouldn't see how they have some right to tell me what I am and am not entitled to when I do not follow their beliefs.


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    #7
    Bobeagleburger
    Registered Users Posts: 45,333 ✭✭✭✭Bobeagleburger


    It's about equality, something which Sinn Fein would have obviously been fighting for with regards to Catholics years ago. It would be slightly hyprocritical to have a different stance on this.

    The DUP are still in the stone age, but are just bowing to their core voters I guess.


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    #8
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,684 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    This is not an issue of equality, so beloved of the left, but of seeking to impose the left's narrow and blinkered version which beleives it can re-write a social contract that is Marriage, which has both duties in regard the family a foundation of society and benefits which other societal relationships do not have. Given the attempts by the State bodies in the UK to muzzle employees who do not agree with their official stance, this would soon be followed in Ireland on the passage of such legislation.


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    #9
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Manach wrote: »
    This is not an issue of equality, so beloved of the left, but of seeking to impose the left's narrow and blinkered version...
    Whoah. This is an issue of equality, and to describe a desire for equality as "narrow and blinkered" - particularly by contrast with a desire to deny that equality - is breathtakingly arrogant.
    ...which beleives it can re-write a social contract that is Marriage, which has both duties in regard the family a foundation of society and benefits which other societal relationships do not have.
    Yes. And a section of society is denied those benefits - and denied the very status of "family" - because of their sexual orientation. This is, quite simply, a civil rights issue.


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    #10
    1ZRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭1ZRed


    Manach wrote: »
    This is not an issue of equality, so beloved of the left, but of seeking to impose the left's narrow and blinkered version which beleives it can re-write a social contract that is Marriage, which has both duties in regard the family a foundation of society and benefits which other societal relationships do not have. Given the attempts by the State bodies in the UK to muzzle employees who do not agree with their official stance, this would soon be followed in Ireland on the passage of such legislation.
    It is all about equality. I am a second class citizen to you just because of my sexuality and I am denied the same rights as you would purely on religious grounds which I don't follow myself.

    The "social contract of marriage" has been re-written many times to include divorce and no longer view women as property to be owned. Society changes and laws have always had to keep up to mirror that. This issue is no different and I've yet to hear a logical and rational reason as to why it should be prevented.


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    #11
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    I dont agree with the DUP on much at all but I would strongly support them on this issue. Why is Sinn Fein going against what Im sure their core vote in the north believe in order to impress the more "trendy" in the south?
    ......

    SF were the first party on the island to support gay marriage. It's nothing to do with the 'more trendy in the south'.


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    #12
    OCorcrainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭OCorcrainn


    What is the difference between civil union and civil marriage precisely?


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    #13
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    What is the difference between civil union and civil marriage precisely?
    Adoption rights, for one.


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    #14
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Manach wrote: »
    This is not an issue of equality, so beloved of the left, but of seeking to impose the left's narrow and blinkered version which beleives it can re-write a social contract that is Marriage, which has both duties in regard the family a foundation of society and benefits which other societal relationships do not have. Given the attempts by the State bodies in the UK to muzzle employees who do not agree with their official stance, this would soon be followed in Ireland on the passage of such legislation.

    Actually if you go to Cuba you will find that propaganda for homosexuality is illegal. Homosexuality was not accepted at all in the former socialist block and is still socially unacceptable in most former socialist countries. The acceptance of homosexuality has much more to do with capitalist individualism than with anything "left wing". Im sure if figures exist they would prove that homosexuals tend to be middle and upper class (or lumpen of course) as opposed to working class.


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    #15
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    1ZRed wrote: »
    I'm gay and I agree with tha in part. The church has it's rules and it's their choice to allow same sex couples to marry or not. It works both ways though, gay people want to marry and get full equal rights the same as any heterosexual married couple but without any religious tie.

    It's a civil matter so the church has got nothing at all to do with it and should have no say in what they find acceptable or not if this is a purely civil issue.

    What happens in their institution, stays there. If I'm not religious i wouldn't see how they have some right to tell me what I am and am not entitled to when I do not follow their beliefs.

    Don't you already have the right (atleast in the UK) to civil partnerships which is defacto marriage?


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    #16
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Im sure if figures exist they would prove that homosexuals tend to be middle and upper class (or lumpen of course) as opposed to working class.
    Bollox. That's just a re-statement of the "lifestyle choice" twaddle.


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    #17
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    Manach wrote: »
    This is not an issue of equality, so beloved of the left, but of seeking to impose the left's narrow and blinkered version which beleives it can re-write a social contract that is Marriage, which has both duties in regard the family a foundation of society and benefits which other societal relationships do not have. Given the attempts by the State bodies in the UK to muzzle employees who do not agree with their official stance, this would soon be followed in Ireland on the passage of such legislation.

    A social contract is only enforceable by social pressure. A marriage contract in a modern society is backed by the state. You are talking about a social convention, while the gay marriage debate is about individual citizens having equal rights in the eyes of the state.

    As for state employees, if people do not like carrying out their employer-mandated duties, then perhaps they should look for another job, same as the rest of us have to do in the private sector.


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    #18
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,869 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    OCorcrainn wrote: »
    What is the difference between civil union and civil marriage precisely?

    There are also about 140 other differences between the two regarding things like next-of-kin, inheritance, being able to file taxes as a couple etc. Here is a brief list.


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    #19
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,095 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    What I find odd is why gay couples would want to be married in a church that is so hostile towards them?


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    #20
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    This isn't about being married in a church.


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    #21
    1ZRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭1ZRed


    walshb wrote: »
    What I find odd is why gay couples would want to be married in a church that is so hostile towards them?

    Most aren't asking for that, they want a civil marriage equal to that any heterosexual couple can have.


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    #22
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,814 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    walshb wrote: »
    What I find odd is why gay couples would want to be married in a church that is so hostile towards them?

    They dont want to be married in a church they simply want the legal status of being married to be available to them like every heterosexual couple. It has nothing to do with the church but for some reason religious people cant understand that


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    #23
    Dubhlinner
    Registered Users Posts: 456 ✭✭Dubhlinner


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    I dont agree with the DUP on much at all but I would strongly support them on this issue. Why is Sinn Fein going against what Im sure their core vote in the north believe in order to impress the more "trendy" in the south?

    The answer is obvious mate.

    They impress the trendy demographic on both sides of the border by tabling the motion but don't end up pissing off the core vote because they know their mates in the DUP will block the motion.

    They're actually getting to have their cake and eat it on this one.


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    #24
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,814 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Dubhlinner wrote: »
    The answer is obvious mate.

    They impress the trendy demographic on both sides of the border by tabling the motion but don't end up pissing off the core vote because they know their mates in the DUP will block the motion.

    They're actually getting to have their cake and eat it on this one.

    True but thank god the "trendy" demographic are a bit more clued in than their core vote and will see this for the populist move it is


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    #25
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    VinLieger wrote: »
    They dont want to be married in a church they simply want the legal status of being married to be available to them like every heterosexual couple. It has nothing to do with the church but for some reason religious people cant understand that

    I would have no issue with civil marriage be recognised in the same way as ' church weddings' however as I said church's should still be able to choose wether or not they would hold a same sex marriage and if they choose not to they should not be persecuted. I have no issue with same sex adoption, the bench mark for me is a persons ability to parent not thier sexuality


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    #26
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,814 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    junder wrote: »
    I would have no issue with civil marriage be recognised in the same way as ' church weddings' however as I said church's should still be able to choose wether or not they would hold a same sex marriage and if they choose not to they should not be persecuted. I no issue with same sex adoption, the bench mark for me is a persons ability to parent not thier sexuality

    I agree, nobody should be able to force a church to perform ceremonies they dont want to just wish the church would be as rationale and stop trying to force everyone to behave the way they want them to


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    #27
    An Coilean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭An Coilean


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Leaving aside the well established fact that homosexuality is no more a lifestyle choice than heterosexuality is, do I have the right to object to straight people getting married?

    Yes?
    That would be the 'speak now or forever hold your peace' bit right?


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    #28
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,793 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    An Coilean wrote: »
    Yes?
    That would be the 'speak now or forever hold your peace' bit right?
    Maybe, but that is an invitation to describe a legal impediment to an individual marriage going ahead. I don't think it's intended as an invitation to bigotry.

    And we're still not talking about church weddings.


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    #29
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    I agree with the motion however where i think it gets sticky is the area of adoption, and not in relation to gay parents being automatically worse than hetrosexual couples but in relation to religious adoption agencies being sanctioned for not considering gay couples as potential parents, a choice I believe they should be free to make, as I presume the birth parent(s) deliberately place their children with these agencies (I could be wrong about this which would change my views)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9822253/Catholic-adoption-agency-faces-punishment-for-gay-discrimination.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/7952526/Last-Catholic-adoption-agency-faces-closure-after-Charity-Commission-ruling.html

    Days later edit: I agree with the gay marriage motion not the DUP one!


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