Slip Collar / Martingale Collar

slick31

Hey all,
I've an 8month old Springer Spaniel (who's extremely strong). Who won't stop pulling and lunging (at people dogs a piece of paper...). I've tried for months now - turning in the other direction when she pulls and stopping and sitting etc. But I can't get her to stop its constant we can't walk even one foot without pulling. Anyway I'm just wondering would a slip collar help? Or is this just a choke collar (I don't want to hurt her)? Is a martingale collar a better option or just the same thing? If it is better - Why? I'd really appreciate some advice on these collars? And any tips on other things I could try to get her to stop pulling?
Thanks,
Slick.

DBB

Hi Slick,
Anything that tightens around the neck is a no-no, and whilst martingale collars have their uses in dog management, they don't for training.
If you do a search for front-attachment harnesses, you'll find a good few threads on this very subject. These harnesses are very effective on most (not all) dogs, but crucially, they're also ethical and won't hurt her, and there's no pre-training with them. You just stick em on and off you go (making sure it's adjusted to fit the dog exactly as the manufacturers recommend).
My own favourite, having tried most of them, is the Premier Wasy Walk harness.

slick31

Thanks for the reply DBB. I have a front attachment harness (Halti). I've used it and it does help somewhat that I can't feel her pulling as much. But she is still pulling I'd really like her to walk beside me and understand that shes doing it (if you know what I mean?). If I use the front harness will this teach her or the minute I stop using it will she just go back to her old ways? I'll have a look for other threads on the front harness - and get a better understanding of them. What do you think of the Caesar Millan collar?
Cheers,
Slick.

DBB

I know of a dog on who the "Illusion" (Cesar Milan) collar was put, purely to see what would happen. A happy, lovely Labrador. I believe the minute the collar was put on him, he peed himself.
It's not made clear by the manufacturers how they work, with good reason I suspect. That is until you see them in the flesh. The top collar, which goes around the very top of the neck just where the main blood vessels, and nerve bundles, come near the skin, has a very skinny cord hidden underneath it, it's like a very thin slip lead. It works by pretty much cutting off the blood supply to the dog's head. This, naturally, causes the dog to faint, which is called by Cesar Milan the "calm submissive state".
He can call it what he likes, but the veterinary fraternity would call it cyanosis. Symptoms of this, which you'll see on Milan's shows, is blue tongue, slow breathing, an almost trance-like state in the dog. So, far from being in a "calm submissive state", the dog is actually struggling to stay alive.
So no, I wouldn't recommend their use!
I only posted yesterday about how the Halti harness in particular is probably the least effective of the front connection harnesses. It's clunky, and I feel that the chest strap is hard to adjust to just the right size. One of the reasons I like the Easy Walk is because it fits a lot of dogs really well, and has a finesse that the Halti lacks.

slick31

Hey again,
Definitely won't be trying the Caesar collar then. I spent roughly €30 on the halti. I would happily spend more on the easy walk if I was sure it would work. This could get quiet expensive! One last question what would you think about a training collar something like this - http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Red-dingo-dog-puppy-collar-half-semi-check-choke-martingale-with-FREE-ID-TAG-/271061906991?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Dogs&var=&hash=item3f1c8c762f. I just think if I could direct her a bit better then she'd get it. Is there a collar I could get that would be a higher up on her neck that wouldn't choke her??? (I've tried the head collar - she really hated it so wouldn't use one of them again). Apologies for my lack of knowledge - I just really need her to stop her pulling and especially lunging as she'll either do damage to herself, me or random passers by. Do the easy walk or the halti train the dog to stop pulling or is it that the minute I put a normal lead on she starts pulling again. (I've used the halti front harness a few times but she doesn't like it and hides if she sees it (but is happy with a normal lead)).
Is this the type of Easy Leader I should be looking at getting http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Reflective-Premier-Easy-Walk-Harness-includes-6ft-lead-3-Sizes-Red-or-Black-/300657312514?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Dogs&var=&hash=item4600928302
Thanks again you've been very helpful,
Slick.

Philip82

Have you tried walking with a light stick in your hand and any time the dog pulls give her a tip on the nose, I dont want to sound cruel I dont mean beat your dog just let her know that she cant keep pulling. After a while she might cop on that when you carry the stick she will walk normal for you. This may or may not help but try stop her pulling if at all possible as it takes the enjoyment out of walking your dog.

DBB

That's the Easy Walk alright. Whereabouts are you? If you're near me or anyone I know that has one, perhaps we could arrange a try before you buy!
As for whether she'll learn not to pull, no, she won't unless you actively teach her. But this is why an effective (and ethical!) piece of gear comes into its own, because it allows you to create more, and longer, opportunities to positively reinforce nice loose-lead walking. So eventually, the dog walks with you because she wants to, because she likes it.
The martingale collar you linked to... I just can't see it working unless you cause her some serious discomfort the first few times you use it. There's nowt to stop her leaning on it. I have a personal vendetta against using collars to control dogs at all, because of the damage it can cause to the spine and trachea over the life of the dog.
That Halti harness was a tad expensive, given that they're the cheapest of any brand. I'll have a root and see can I find cheaper Easy Walks online for you.

Tranceypoo

Philip82 wrote: »

Have you tried walking with a light stick in your hand and any time the dog pulls give her a tip on the nose, I dont want to sound cruel I dont mean beat your dog just let her know that she cant keep pulling. After a while she might cop on that when you carry the stick she will walk normal for you. This may or may not help but try stop her pulling if at all possible as it takes the enjoyment out of walking your dog.

Well first of all, you do sound cruel.

Secondly, you must never have had a dog like the OP, I have a lunger myself, when we meet other dogs she just tries to go for them, even if I did advocate hitting (or 'tipping' as you call it), which I don't, the dog is usually completely focussed on what it's lunging/pulling at and a tip on the nose would not work, if you could snap the dog out of it easily, you could just offer a treat but the dog gets to a stage where it's not interested in anything else except its target.

OP, I have seen a harness online recently where you clip your lead on at the front, this is supposed to aid in them walking beside you. I can't think what is was called, I saw it on the Madra and Trusty Pet Pals FB page but I'll try and find it for you, I think I'm going to try one it was about 26 euro.

Just seen it's the second ebay link on your last post!

**Vai**

Normal, flat collar and lead but keep her close to your side, on a short leash. Keep your walks like that until she learns not to pull. If you've been using tools and they dont work, something basic is going wrong. Failing that try a halti/dogmatic/whatever head collar. Makes it easier to control the dog.

Philip82

Tranceypoo wrote: »

Well first of all, you do sound cruel.

"Secondly, you must never have had a dog like the OP, I have a lunger myself, when we meet other dogs she just tries to go for them, even if I did advocate hitting (or 'tipping' as you call it), which I don't, the dog is usually completely focussed on what it's lunging/pulling at and a tip on the nose would not work, if you could snap the dog out of it easily, you could just offer a treat but the dog gets to a stage where it's not interested in anything else except its target".




If you have a lunger as you call them and you dont discipline them then how the hell can they learn not to. I have had loads of dogs that did this which were all
disciplined in a short space of time.You cant sit a dog down and tell him whats right and whats wrong!!! I was offering advice on my past experience
and by the sounds of it maybe you should consider it too:D

ISDW

Philip82 wrote: »

Tranceypoo wrote: »

Well first of all, you do sound cruel.

"Secondly, you must never have had a dog like the OP, I have a lunger myself, when we meet other dogs she just tries to go for them, even if I did advocate hitting (or 'tipping' as you call it), which I don't, the dog is usually completely focussed on what it's lunging/pulling at and a tip on the nose would not work, if you could snap the dog out of it easily, you could just offer a treat but the dog gets to a stage where it's not interested in anything else except its target".




If you have a lunger as you call them and you dont discipline them then how the hell can they learn not to. I have had loads of dogs that did this which were all
disciplined in a short space of time.You cant sit a dog down and tell him whats right and whats wrong!!! I was offering advice on my past experience
and by the sounds of it maybe you should consider it too:D

I reported your post as I thought advocating cruelty was against the forum charter, and hitting a dog on the nose with a stick, even if it is only a 'tip' is cruelty. Plenty of ways to stop a dog pulling without resorting to hitting the dog.

Philip82

ISDW wrote: »

Philip82 wrote: »

I reported your post as I thought advocating cruelty was against the forum charter, and hitting a dog on the nose with a stick, even if it is only a 'tip' is cruelty. Plenty of ways to stop a dog pulling without resorting to hitting the dog.

Cruelty????? HaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

DBB

Okay, that's enough.
Philip82, there are more ethical ways to teach a dog not to pull on the lead than using a physical punisher like a stick: this might have worked for you in the past, but dog training has moved on from this sort of thing in the past decade. Your advice to use a stick to stop the dog from pulling was never going to go down well.
To everyone else, please don't rise to posts like philip82's: it would be far more effective, I think, to calmly explain why other techniques are more preferable, rather than going on the attack.
Do not reply to this post on thread.
Back on topic now please.
Thanks,
DBB

slick31

Cheers for all the replies guys.
I've tried her on a shorter lead with loads of praise and this appears to be helping somewhat. However there weren't many distractions so I'm not sure how well its really working. The thing I'm finding about this is that shes choking herself with all the pulling. When I walk with her on the lead in the house she walks to heel no problem - so I assume its just all the distractions and excitement of going out thats the problem? (I do keep it all calm about going out). What should I do when shes lunging to go and play with her dogs???? At the moment I just hold her back and try to sit her down? Is there something else I should/could be doing???? Is there some secret to getting them to just walk past other dogs??? Lastly would she benefit from me bringing her to a dog park? (theres one relatively near me that apparently has a caged run area where the dogs can mingle). I suppose and hope it will come with time.
Thanks for all the help,
Slick.

Tropheus

I think choke chains can work, but it depends on the dog. If the dog is going to continuously pull and half asphyxiate itself, then it's obliviously not working and shouldn't be used. If the dog feels it tighten and backs off then it's ok. I would agree that such devices have limited use.

I have tried the Halti Head Collar. It works, but is uncomfortable for the dog and can rise up and interfere with the eyes. We have a beagle and they are notorious pullers when on the lead. They're very strong dogs and taking them for a walk using a regular harness or collar is great for building upper body strength:).

DBB

There's no doubt that choke chains can work, in the hands of those who understand exactly how they work. There is no denying that.
But that's not the issue.
The issue is that the choke chain cannot work without using it as an aversive consequence for pulling. They work best by making the dog think that if he pulls, he's going to feel discomfort or pain. If he doesn't pull, he won't.
This approach to dog training is considered unethical and unnecessary in light of (a) gear that doesn't hurt the dog being available now, and (b) our knowledge gained from research in the past 15 years which makes us more informed about the intricacies of learning theory, and how use of aversives can cause a lot of unforeseen fallout.

DBB

Slick, a lot of what your dog is doing is common enough, and quite sortable! But because every dog is different, and every owner is different, it is difficult to tell you what way to handle this without being too generic via a forum such as this. One thing I'd be pretty sure of, and that is that your dog is unlikely to grow out of this problem without a concerted and targeted training program.
To this end, you could benefit greatly by getting a qualified behaviourist in to assess your dog, figure out why she's doing what she's doing, and design a behaviour modification program designed specifically for you. You need to be careful who you choose if you decide to go down this route. If you feel you want to, let us know where you are, and somebody might be able to make an appropriate recommendation to you.

slick31

DBB wrote: »

Slick, a lot of what your dog is doing is common enough, and quite sortable! But because every dog is different, and every owner is different, it is difficult to tell you what way to handle this without being too generic via a forum such as this. One thing I'd be pretty sure of, and that is that your dog is unlikely to grow out of this problem without a concerted and targeted training program.
To this end, you could benefit greatly by getting a qualified behaviourist in to assess your dog, figure out why she's doing what she's doing, and design a behaviour modification program designed specifically for you. You need to be careful who you choose if you decide to go down this route. If you feel you want to, let us know where you are, and somebody might be able to make an appropriate recommendation to you.

I'm in Dublin in the Dun Laoighaire area. So if anyone knows of a good trainer that doesn't cost the earth let me know please? She's really smart so I don't think it would take long at all if she just understood what I wanted her to do. I hold my hands up its probably make that definitely more my fault than the dogs. So a trainer (to train me) is probably the way to go. Thanks again to everyone for all the help its very much appreciated.
Slick.

DBB

Ah, you're perfectly located for one of the best behaviourists around, I do believe! Emmaline of www.citizencanineireland.com covers south Dublin, and will visit you at home to get to the root of the problem.
Absolutely 100% ethical, no coercion used, and I've had a lot of really positive reports.
Good luck!

Odysseus

DBB wrote: »

This approach to dog training is considered unethical and unnecessary in light of (a) gear that doesn't hurt the dog being available now, and (b) our knowledge gained from research in the past 15 years which makes us more informed about the intricacies of learning theory, and how use of aversives can cause a lot of unforeseen fallout.

Out of interest have you any links to research that disusses the above in relation to dogs?

DBB

Odysseus wrote: »

Out of interest have you any links to research that disusses the above in relation to dogs?

I could link to a pile of research for you, but I think the very good site http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org sums it up pretty well in one place. There are a good few research departments in universities particularly in the UK, central Europe, and the US which are responsible for the research, some of which is linked to on the above website.
One of the principle researchers responsible for the research is John Bradshaw of Bristol University, a really super author and scientist. He wrote a very nice book, published about 18 months ago, called "In Defence of Dogs". A great read for any dog owner, it answers a lot of questions by gathering the available research between its covers. You'll also find info about him and his work via Google!

snipey

Slick , I use a collar that has blunt spike's covered with rubber tips,so the more he pulls the more they dig in,i only had to use it for a short while,i used to go for a walk around the town so i'd meet other dogs you'll have him trained in a week,i'd make him sit when another dog was coming up the street and as he passed i'd give a small tug,he quickly learned.

DBB

snipey wrote: »

Slick , I use a collar that has blunt spike's covered with rubber tips,so the more he pulls the more they dig in,i only had to use it for a short while,i used to go for a walk around the town so i'd meet other dogs you'll have him trained in a week,i'd make him sit when another dog was coming up the street and as he passed i'd give a small tug,he quickly learned.

Again, the use of aversion which is just not necessary. What you describe is a prong collar. The fact that someone has been "thoughtful" enough to cap the spikes would make this piece of gear marginally less unpleasant for the dog than the full-blown version, but still unpleasant, still aversive. That's how they work.
There's simply no room in dog training any more for this sort of gear. There is safe, comfortable gear that does the job just as well, and it is abundantly clear too that positive training methods far outweigh coercive training methods, because the eliminate the potential fallout associated with aversion and coercion.

phelo2121

op if your dog is doing well on walks with no distractions perhaps continue with these walks for as long as you can until they dog gets used to this. in the mean time teach your dog to focus on you ie everytiime u say focus and the dog looks at you he gets a very tasty treat do this at home loads then begin to do it on your quiet walks when the time comes that another dogs passes cross the road if possible for first few times and try the focus command at a distance from another and hopefully the distance can become shorter and shorter .good luck

slick31

phelo2121 wrote: »

op if your dog is doing well on walks with no distractions perhaps continue with these walks for as long as you can until they dog gets used to this. in the mean time teach your dog to focus on you ie everytiime u say focus and the dog looks at you he gets a very tasty treat do this at home loads then begin to do it on your quiet walks when the time comes that another dogs passes cross the road if possible for first few times and try the focus command at a distance from another and hopefully the distance can become shorter and shorter .good luck

One of the problems is that she doesn't pay any attention to me while on the lead. Shes to busy sniffing constantly pretty much never stops. I turn and walk the other way when shes pulling but now.... She has now learnt the turn around and is quite good at anticipating telling me when its time to turn back around. Pretty smart huh! Just a pity she won't use these smarts to walk. I've done/doing the look at me (focus) at home and shes very good at it. But inside she listens to me - I train her inside on the lead and she walks absolutely fine. I've found treats on walks are a hugh distraction for her and make things much worse. All I end up doing is battling the hyperness for the treat. Also when I give her praise (just say good girl or good job) this also doesn't help as she then thinks she can take off. It doesn't matter if the dog/person is across the road or at the end of the park shes still just pulling to get at them. Anyways I'm getting to the end of my tether (pardon the pun) I really feel like giving up and just hope she'll grow out of it as she gets older. Thanks to all again for the advice - I'll let you's know probably in the far future if she ever does it.
Slick.

DBB

slick31 wrote: »

I really feel like giving up and just hope she'll grow out of it as she gets older. Thanks to all again for the advice - I'll let you's know probably in the far future if she ever does it.
Slick.

It's unlikely she's going to grow out of it OP. In fact, it's highly unlikely. I can only repeat my advice to you to get help with this. You'll be surprised at how some tweaking and very clear rules on how to handle this situation will improve things pretty quickly for you.