My war with the clampers

fasttalkerchat

My mum stupidly paid €120 to the NCPS scumbags. She was in parked in dublin in a pre-pay car park. The machine wouldnt accept more than 2 coins. So after 10 mins trying she left the car. There was a queue of others trying to use the machine.
Half an hour after the ticket expired she was clamped. She called and explained that the machine wasn't working but they refused to listen. She was told an appeal would have to be made after a release fee was paid. She recorded a video of the machine not working and took the details of the clamper. She also took details of a witness who was trying to use the machine and had the same problem.
After paying the fee we appealed only for it to be rejected with a standard letter. I replied with a list of points but got no reply.

They want us to pay €20 to an "independent" company to make a 2nd appeal.

Is there any other way to go about this other than calling them every hour and taking them to court?
Please keep suggestions legal. Thanks.

MugMugs

The independent company is directed by the same directors as NCPS and or APOCA IIRC.

Ironic you're saying keep responses legal when the clamping in itself could be seen as illegal. I can't see any way for you to get your money back now they have it anyway.

fasttalkerchat

MugMugs wrote: »

The independent company is directed by the same directors as NCPS and or APOCA IIRC.

Ironic you're saying keep responses legal when the clamping in itself could be seen as illegal. I can't see any way for you to get your money back now they have it anyway.

If I clamp one of their vehicles its 100% illegal. When they do it under permission of the property owner its a grey area.

I'm also going to hassle the property owner from 9am tomorrow.

At they very least it will force the clampers to respond.

Guy:Incognito

What use is ringing them after shes clamped saying the machine didnt give her as much time as she wanted? She knew when leaving the car she had X time but didnt come back till half an hour after that. The time for action was before leaving the car. Either ring them and ask for advice or go to another car park.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

seeing_ie

Small claims court?

Judges are reputedly sympathetic to "the little guy" and if you have incontravertible evidence in this case you may be successful.

MugMugs

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

If I clamp one of their vehicles its 100% illegal. When they do it under permission of the property owner its a grey area.
.

How's that now?

If it's against the road traffic act to disable a vehicle in a public place (which this car park is) then how does the property owners permission make it alright?

By that logic, I now declare that it's okay to stab people in the head in my front garden. Will that protect people from a criminal charge?

fasttalkerchat

seeing_ie wrote: »

Small claims court?

Judges are reputedly sympathetic to "the little guy" and if you have incontravertible evidence in this case you may be successful.

Yea looks like we will have to go to the small claims. How much should we claim for? Just the amount paid or do we include expenses such as a day's wages?

fasttalkerchat

MugMugs wrote: »

How's that now?

If it's against the road traffic act to disable a vehicle in a public place (which this car park is) then how does the property owners permission make it alright?

By that logic, I now declare that it's okay to stab people in the head in my front garden. Will that protect people from a criminal charge?

They probably acted illegally. I certainly would be.

mickdw

Reasonable case to challenge them on. If you want to make a point, start hitting them with solicitors letters. Seeing as it was not possible to pay, they don't have a leg to stand on.
A solicitor will advise but I would hit them for return of the clamping charge together with a reasonable sum for delays caused etc due to their actions.

NuckingFacker

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

My mum stupidly paid €120 to the NCPS scumbags. She was in parked in dublin in a pre-pay car park. The machine wouldnt accept more than 2 coins. So after 10 mins trying she left the car. There was a queue of others trying to use the machine.
Half an hour after the ticket expired she was clamped. She called and explained that the machine wasn't working but they refused to listen. She was told an appeal would have to be made after a release fee was paid. She recorded a video of the machine not working and took the details of the clamper. She also took details of a witness who was trying to use the machine and had the same problem.
After paying the fee we appealed only for it to be rejected with a standard letter. I replied with a list of points but got no reply.

They want us to pay €20 to an "independent" company to make a 2nd appeal.

Is there any other way to go about this other than calling them every hour and taking them to court?
Please keep suggestions legal. Thanks.

You sort of lost me after this. Much as I hate clampers, if I go into their managed car-park and park up, I'm on their terms and conditions. Mainly as it's their turf. Having said that, if it was me, I'd not have paid and I do get why it would p1ss you off. Personally, I'd be moving on. Bigger stuff to sweat and all that.

fasttalkerchat

mickdw wrote: »

Reasonable case to challenge them on. If you want to make a point, start hitting them with solicitors letters. Seeing as it was not possible to pay, they don't have a leg to stand on.
A solicitor will advise but I would hit them for return of the clamping charge together with a reasonable sum for delays caused etc due to their actions.

Unfortunately we can't because we live in NI. So would need to get a ROI solicitor, can't see them doing that without us paying them.

I sent them an email requesting their company name and address for the purpose of the execution of a court order. Hopefully they will get the message. If not we will register with the small claims on monday.

We're going to claim for €120 removal fee plus loss of earnings if it goes to court. They also missed a restaurant reservation but no other financial losses afaik.

Bandara

I'm not standing up for clampers here (i myself have a long outstanding court case against apoca) but she was clamped because she didn't pay the correct fee or make provision to notify the Carpark of the issue, the onus is hers to ensure her car is compliant or else she faces the risk of the clampers

The rest of the Carpark paid it or else they would all have been clamped as well. The clampers didn't victimise or single out your mother, they just went down the line of cars and clamped whoever was out of time. The issue of the legality of clamping is a side issue here. Your mum entered a Carpark that requires a fee. If she had called them and said the machine was out of order or had a problem and given her reg they would have given a grace period or else told her she cannot park there.

She made the decision that she should be ok as she's only be half an hour, and she took a chance.

I can't see you have any grounds here. Carparks always have several pay machines in them, which Carpark was it?

Your simply going to be taken seriously claiming for loss if earnings.

You are not going to get your money back

KamiKazi

I'm sure Anan1 will be along shortly with some well balanced opinions :cool: (Mods, this is not personal abuse, despite however much you wanna stick up for an ex. mod)

OP. Start the small claims court process. As other posters have said, as soon as they see you are serious they won't be long about settling.

Fred Swanson

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fasttalkerchat

Hammertime wrote: »

I'm not standing up for clampers here (i myself have a long outstanding court case against apoca) but she was clamped because she didn't pay the correct fee or make provision to notify the Carpark of the issue, the onus is hers to ensure her car is compliant or else she faces the risk of the clampers

The rest of the Carpark paid it or else they would all have been clamped as well. The clampers didn't victimise or single out your mother, they just went down the line of cars and clamped whoever was out of time. The issue of the legality of clamping is a side issue here. Your mum entered a Carpark that requires a fee. If she had called them and said the machine was out of order or had a problem and given her reg they would have given a grace period or else told her she cannot park there.

She made the decision that she should be ok as she's only be half an hour, and she took a chance.

I can't see you have any grounds here. Carparks always have several pay machines in them, which Carpark was it?

Your simply going to be taken seriously claiming for loss if earnings.

You are not going to get your money back

She probably should have steered clear but she expected to be back in time and was going to pay extra just to be sure. Since they will have to accept that they only machine was defective I can't see how they could win.

There was only one machine. I'm having trouble finding the car park. There was no barrier and did not seem to belong to a nearby business. Its listed as St. Ives Malahide.

Bandara

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

She probably should have steered clear but she expected to be back in time and was going to pay extra just to be sure. Since they will have to accept that they only machine was defective I can't see how they could win.

There was only one machine. I'm having trouble finding the car park. There was no barrier and did not seem to belong to a nearby business. Its listed as St. Ives Malahide.

The problem is they will have themselves covered every which way, life is too short mate.

Just move on, your not letting them win, it's just not worth months and months of aggravation with no hope of winning

Dtp79

In my boot I always carry an 18v DeWalt mini grinder. Never leave home without it

NuckingFacker

Dtp79 wrote: »

In my boot I always carry an 18v DeWalt mini grinder. Never leave home without it

I just carry a few euros in loose change. Lighter and way better at dealing with clampers. Them Dewalts don't come cheap.

MugMugs

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Unfortunately we can't because we live in NI. So would need to get a ROI solicitor, can't see them doing that without us paying them.
I sent them an email requesting their company name and address for the purpose of the execution of a court order. Hopefully they will get the message. If not we will register with the small claims on monday.

We're going to claim for €120 removal fee plus loss of earnings if it goes to court. They also missed a restaurant reservation but no other financial losses afaik.

There are solicitors who can practice both sides of the border. I can name one now off the top of my head. Let me know if you'd like me to pm you her name.

MugMugs

Hammertime wrote: »

The problem is they will have themselves covered every which way, life is too short mate.

Just move on, your not letting them win, it's just not worth months and months of aggravation with no hope of winning

Didn't you have a case against clampers or am I mistaken? Has the case ended?

Dtp79

NuckingFacker wrote: »

I just carry a few euros in loose change. Lighter and way better at dealing with clampers. Them Dewalts don't come cheap.

I didn't buy it for the campers but it comes in handy. I use the grinder in work ( mostly )!!

fasttalkerchat

MugMugs wrote: »

There are solicitors who can practice both sides of the border. I can name one now off the top of my head. Let me know if you'd like me to pm you her name.

Would she charge for sending a letter though?

fasttalkerchat

Dtp79 wrote: »

In my boot I always carry an 18v DeWalt mini grinder. Never leave home without it

How do you power it? Cordless battery?

MugMugs

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Would she charge for sending a letter though?

Not sure dude. I'm sure a phone call to their office could answer that

anncoates

Dtp79 wrote: »

In my boot I always carry an 18v DeWalt mini grinder. Never leave home without it

If you get clamped enough to warrant carrying around a angle grinder perhaps you need to rethink your parking.

MugMugs

anncoates wrote: »

If you get clamped enough to warrant carrying around a angle grinder perhaps you need to rethink your parking.

Dtp79 wrote: »

I didn't buy it for the campers but it comes in handy. I use the grinder in work ( mostly )!!

MadsL

One avenue might be that fact that some APCOA carparks may be operated without planing permission. I know for a fact that the one at Smithfield at the old Irish Distillers building was (and currently is to the best of my knowledge) operated with planning permission. If there is no legal permission to carry out car parking, then how can they legally charge, if the charge is illegal then the fine is also illegal.

Check if any planning permission has been granted.

anncoates

MugMugs wrote: »

My mistake.

Can't imagine how I got the idea that chatting randomly about his work angle grinder in a clamping thread had any significance.

fasttalkerchat

MadsL wrote: »

One avenue might be that fact that some APCOA carparks may be operated without planing permission. I know for a fact that the one at Smithfield at the old Irish Distillers building was (and currently is to the best of my knowledge) operated with planning permission. If there is no legal permission to carry out car parking, then how can they legally charge, if the charge is illegal then the fine is also illegal.

Check if any planning permission has been granted.

I tried to get a nearby casino involved to see if they had granted permission of NCPS to clamp on their property. I found out that they do not own the land.

No idea who owns the car park. Going to try and locate it on google maps with my mums help on Sunday.

delta_bravo

I really don't think this can be pursued through the small claims court. Especially if you're looking for compensation for other expenses incurred

fasttalkerchat

I believe I have found the location. I may be wrong. Can anyone see any legal issues here apart from the single faulty machine? Signs look okay. How do I check if they have planning permission?


https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=westbury+club+dublin+malahide&hl=en&ll=53.453036,-6.154329&spn=0.001913,0.004823&sll=53.341481,-6.261679&sspn=0.007674,0.01929&gl=uk&hq=westbury+club+dublin+malahide&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.452995,-6.154198&panoid=0Av9TuHzFewBF0dlCHOTDA&cbp=12,238.22,,0,1.2

Fred Swanson

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Dtp79

Yes it's wireless and its a mini grinder. It takes up little space

MadsL

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I believe I have found the location. I may be wrong. Can anyone see any legal issues here apart from the single faulty machine? Signs look okay. How do I check if they have planning permission?


https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=westbury+club+dublin+malahide&hl=en&ll=53.453036,-6.154329&spn=0.001913,0.004823&sll=53.341481,-6.261679&sspn=0.007674,0.01929&gl=uk&hq=westbury+club+dublin+malahide&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.452995,-6.154198&panoid=0Av9TuHzFewBF0dlCHOTDA&cbp=12,238.22,,0,1.2

PP is here.
http://planning.fingalcoco.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayURL?theApnID=93A/0202

I don't see anything that would permit the operation of a public car park, but check with the Co Co.

fasttalkerchat

MadsL wrote: »

PP is here.
http://planning.fingalcoco.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayURL?theApnID=93A/0202

I don't see anything that would permit the operation of a public car park, but check with the Co Co.

Thanks for that. I sent the council an email enquiring if that covered them or if there was another application.
I would love to sting them for something but a refund from this lot seems unlikely.

mullingar

The land registry office will give you the name of the legal owner(s). It will cost around €10ish

T-Maxx

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Blah blah blah.

Half an hour after the ticket expired she was clamped.

Blah blah blah.

So she didn't have a valid ticket and got clamped. What exactly is the problem here?

ironclaw

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I believe I have found the location. I may be wrong. Can anyone see any legal issues here apart from the single faulty machine? Signs look okay. How do I check if they have planning permission?


https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=westbury+club+dublin+malahide&hl=en&ll=53.453036,-6.154329&spn=0.001913,0.004823&sll=53.341481,-6.261679&sspn=0.007674,0.01929&gl=uk&hq=westbury+club+dublin+malahide&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.452995,-6.154198&panoid=0Av9TuHzFewBF0dlCHOTDA&cbp=12,238.22,,0,1.2

Two things I'd note (And I'm not a fan of clampers)

1) Its fairly well sign posted. My arguement would be that she was issued a ticket and that she had thus entered an agreement with the car park. She knew what time she had to be back at and did not return. She could have refused to pay and left. The signs clearly indicate that its pay and display, and she knew this as she bought a ticket. She also was given 30 mins grace (As you admitted yourself) which is a HUGE amount for Dublin clampers.

2) It appears to be private property. There are pedestrian gates at the entrance there but none for vehicles. They don't have to be closed every day but there are defintions of private property / right of way which a solicitor would be better versed in. Its certainly not a public place in my opinion. So your on their rules. Clamping as a whole is a very grey area in Ireland so really you'd be better off talking to a solictor.

In my opinion, take the €120 hit and walk away.

Chemical Burn

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Yea looks like we will have to go to the small claims. How much should we claim for? Just the amount paid or do we include expenses such as a day's wages?

That, plus the price of a phone call to ring the clampers, the credit card admin fee, the 15 quid it costs to register the small claim and a 35 Euro admin fee that they usually charge, no reason why you can't tack one on too

NCPS = Non-Sympathetic Controversial Parking Serpents

Fred Swanson

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fasttalkerchat

Just a quick update. The council are interested in the lack of planning permission and want us to file a formal complaint.
No replies from the clampers. Hopefully this will go against them in court.

Wish me luck!

Fred Swanson

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dingding

Good luck

BMJD

at least she didn't try to drive away :pac:

im invisible