Planning on leaving wife (Men's advice)

wolfmanjack

I've put this up here because I'm looking for advice from other men who have been in a similar situation. I'm planning on leaving my wife, she is not aware I'm planning to leave and I would like to be prepared for when the day comes as I plan to tell her and leave within a short period of time. My main concern is that my wife will take our two boys aged 2 and 3 back to Italy where she is from and I was wondering if there is any preventative measures I could put in place to stop her from doing that. This might seem drastic but I think that my wife would be so angry at me leaving that she will try try and spread s**t everywhere and taking the boys away would be a way of getting back at me. Also, all her family is in Italy so I assume she would turn to them for emotional support.

In addition, can anyone here tell me what I am looking at from a financial perspective in terms of support, maintenance etc. We have a joint mortgage, she does not have an income and I earn in the region of €70k self employed before taxes. FYI, there is no third parties involved in this break up.

Updated:
One other thing which I omitted when I first posted this was that when we got married, I effectively did so because my wife (gf at the time) gave me an ultimatum to either get married or she would leave and go back to Italy with the boys. I know this doesn't say much for me but it was a big ordeal at the time and I didn't want to lose them.

ToxicPaddy

MOD NOTE: Helpful comments only please.

Grahamb23

Myself and my wife split up 5 years ago and it was all her choice. I have a daughter and she is 6 now but I feel I am after missing a lot. I ended up leaving the family home and paying the full mortgage until it was sold 3 years later. to make a long story short you have a hard road ahead of you. Being a man and leaving is not going to go in your favour either. I would suggest you meet with a solicitor before you make any decision on what to do. I have to give maintenance of 80 a week and half of everything from school uniforms, health ins. and doctor, even birthday presents for her friends. I see her twice a week because im working full time and my ex is not. I believe it cost me a total of around €30,000 over the last 5 years between solicitor fees for separation, divorce and expenses. Before you do anything else and hear all the so called experts opinions get out the phone book and make an appointment with a family law solicitor.

wolfmanjack

Grahamb23 wrote: »

Myself and my wife split up 5 years ago and it was all her choice. I have a daughter and she is 6 now but I feel I am after missing a lot. I ended up leaving the family home and paying the full mortgage until it was sold 3 years later. to make a long story short you have a hard road ahead of you. Being a man and leaving is not going to go in your favour either. I would suggest you meet with a solicitor before you make any decision on what to do. I have to give maintenance of 80 a week and half of everything from school uniforms, health ins. and doctor, even birthday presents for her friends. I see her twice a week because im working full time and my ex is not. I believe it cost me a total of around €30,000 over the last 5 years between solicitor fees for separation, divorce and expenses. Before you do anything else and hear all the so called experts opinions get out the phone book and make an appointment with a family law solicitor.

Thanks for your reply,I fully intend to consult a family law solicitor but wanted to get some feedback of real life experiences here first. When you go to the family court, were you cross examined on the reasons for splitting up and does your earning capacity impact the level of maintenance etc?

Grahamb23

wolfmanjack wrote: »

Thanks for your reply,I fully intend to consult a family law solicitor but wanted to get some feedback of real life experiences here first. When you go to the family court, were you cross examined on the reasons for splitting up and does your earning capacity impact the level of maintenance etc?

It will impact in some ways but to be honest they have a certain cut off point and my wages are I bit less than your. My suggestion would be to make an offer for maintenance early. A colleague of my was in a similar situation to you and he was paying €135 per month maintenance with two kids. Don't forget you will have to look at the fact that you will need to live somewhere that will have room for your kids when they stay over and that's not cheap as you know.

wolfmanjack

Do you think there is any danger that she could take the boys back to Italy? What are posters thoughts on the exit strategy in general, are there any potential do's and dont's that could hurt me from a custody, maintenance and financial point of view.

tbh

wolfmanjack wrote: »

Do you think there is any danger that she could take the boys back to Italy? What are posters thoughts on the exit strategy in general, are there any potential do's and dont's that could hurt me from a custody, maintenance and financial point of view.

How does she feel about the state of the relationship? Will it be a massive shock to her?

Ann84

I am not a man, but I am separated in a shared parenting arrangement with my ex. We dont pay maintenance at all because we have a completely 50/50 situation, and we have a savings account we both pay into to cover uniforms books, hobbies etc. This situation took years to get to. Maintenance is not some kind of penalty you pay for being separated, its for your kids! It drives ne crazy the way people describe it like you should try to minimise it, you pat for your sons now, that shouldn't change and you can work out how much you should pay by looking at how much you currently spend on them, start keeping clothes, food and entertainment receipts...!
My main concern is your attitude towards your wife moving back to Italy. When your marriage ends, if she wants to move back to her home country to be with her family, do you expect her not to? Do you expect her to stay in Ireland for your benefit? Are you going to expect her to leave your sons motherless with you, would that be best for your sons? Do you think she will be happy in Ireland until your sons are 18, or are you just focusing on thevimmediatr?

I am asking all this because once you separate, you owe each other nothing but respect as another parent and person, if she is miserable, and lonely in Ireland, is she going to be able to be a good mum? Whether or not you can make her, you have to consider what your sons life will be like and what is best for them. You may have to consider a real working relationship, where holidays are spent with them. I'm just thinking worst case scenario here but this is the risks we take.
Hope it works out for you both.

wolfmanjack

Ann84 wrote: »

I am not a man, but I am separated in a shared parenting arrangement with my ex. We dont pay maintenance at all because we have a completely 50/50 situation, and we have a savings account we both pay into to cover uniforms books, hobbies etc. This situation took years to get to. Maintenance is not some kind of penalty you pay for being separated, its for your kids! It drives ne crazy the way people describe it like you should try to minimise it, you pat for your sons now, that shouldn't change and you can work out how much you should pay by looking at how much you currently spend on them, start keeping clothes, food and entertainment receipts...!
My main concern is your attitude towards your wife moving back to Italy. When your marriage ends, if she wants to move back to her home country to be with her family, do you expect her not to? Do you expect her to stay in Ireland for your benefit? Are you going to expect her to leave your sons motherless with you, would that be best for your sons? Do you think she will be happy in Ireland until your sons are 18, or are you just focusing on thevimmediatr?

I am asking all this because once you separate, you owe each other nothing but respect as another parent and person, if she is miserable, and lonely in Ireland, is she going to be able to be a good mum? Whether or not you can make her, you have to consider what your sons life will be like and what is best for them. You may have to consider a real working relationship, where holidays are spent with them. I'm just thinking worst case scenario here but this is the risks we take.
Hope it works out for you both.

Thanks for the advice but I really don't think that's a plausible solution to simply let my sons walk out of my life only to visit them on holidays in another country???
No problem in paying maintenance and a 50/50 solution would be ideal but I don't think the majority of arrangements work out that way.

What I was really posting for was to get some practical advice on other people's experiences and if there are any practical solutions to protect myself and protect my sons from being taken permanently away from their father. I'm sure if a mother had the same concerns as me she would do the same?

Vojera

Ann84 wrote: »

Maintenance is not some kind of penalty you pay for being separated, its for your kids!

I just wanted to note here that spousal maintenance and child maintenance are not the same, and since your wife doesn't work it's likely you'll have to pay both. Be sure to discuss that with your solicitor, and remember that if you do end up with a shared custody agreement you pay less child maintenance as you're paying for their care for X number of days per week.

Ickle Magoo

wolfmanjack wrote: »

When your marriage ended and if your ex decided he was leaving Ireland and bringing your children with him, do you think the above advice would be a plausible solution to you.

I don't think it's relevant what other people think is a plausible solution, your wife may decide she wants to return. She can either do that with your permission or she can apply to the courts for a right to leave and a judge can waiver any permissions required from you.

The sad reality is when couples break up, there are consequences - not all of which are favourable to all, or indeed any. You can no more expect her to sit in Ireland against her wishes than she can expect you to stay in a marriage you don't want to be in.

So, you can either sit down together and try to work out a solution that acknowledges the enormous changes to the status quo separation/divorce ALWAYS brings, never mind when one party is only in this country because of the marriage and try to find a road through that gives each party some of what they want in order to move on with their lives - or you can resign yourself to having a bun-fight to the end; destroying any hope of a civil relationship and good working co-parental relationship.

I appreciate neither are a great option but that's the reality of the situation before you. Just as you have the right to be happy and move on, so does your wife - and that may involve things that you don't like or want. You really need to get yourself to a solicitor and get professional advice on how best to approach this whole situation. Get your ducks in a row.

All the very best.

ETA - sorry meant to say on the getting ducks in a row, if you think she'll take off with the kids you can get an injunction to prevent her leaving legally - but she will have the right to challenge that and argue why she should be allowed to leave and the kids should go with her...again, see a solicitor and get prepared.

horseone

I can only offer my personal experience in relation to kids relocating abroad with their mother.

Shortly after moving to the UK some years back with my wife and 2 kids (all Irish), the marriage ended. Because of my financial position and my work situation, I was very anxious that my ex would move back to Ireland leaving me here to service the many debts with little or no access to my kids. All went well for a while after separation, weekly access etc. After returning (all 4 of us) to Ireland for the XMAS break to our respective families, she told me neither she nor the kids would be returning as had been planned. This later transpired to not returning EVER!

At that stage my kids had been in school over here.
Within a week (early Jan) I sought and was granted a English High Court order for the kids return to the UK. The basis for this was 1) their habitual residence was in the UK and 2) they had been abducted/retained outside the England/Wales jurisdiction without my consent. That ruling was granted under an internationally recognised Hague convention (relating to International Child Abduction) that most western countries sign up to.

To cut a long story short, that UK order was later ratified in the Dublin HC and ultimately the kids returned to the UK.....unfortunately with their mother!! That process took 6 months.
Bottom line is that once habitual residence is proved, family courts take a very deem view of kids being removed outside the jurisdiction without parental consent.

The irony in my situation is that had their mother applied legitimately via the courts for them to move back, I suspect she would have been better served than embarking on the route she did.

This is solely my situation and how it worked out, best to see a solicitor on this aspect about your own situation.
Can’t comment on the maintenance aspect, the UK has a fairly stringent CSA those enfore maintenance payments.
But hey, I see my nippers every week so life is good!!

PS - not that it's relevant, but the Irish proceedings for my case were publicly funded. On this side of the water I represented myself so there wasn't a huge cost. the public funded element does vary from country to country however as I understand it


PPS - another significant part of the ratification process in Dublin was for me to establish parental responsbility. For me this involved a marriage certiciate and both kids birth certificates showing me named as the father.

LittleBook

wolfmanjack wrote: »

Thanks for the advice but I really don't think that's a plausible solution to simply let my sons walk out of my life only to visit them on holidays in another country???

I think you're missing the posters point which is that you may have very little say in where they live. A court could decide that the mother and the kids are better off in Italy and you need to prepare for that.

There were a couple of cases in the UK where Australian women were allowed to take their kids back there against the father's wishes.

wolfmanjack wrote: »

What I was really posting for was to get some practical advice on other people's experiences and if there are any practical solutions to protect myself and protect my sons from being taken permanently away from their father. I'm sure if a mother had the same concerns as me she would do the same?

Get a solicitor and get an injunction ... but understand that them being taken permanently away from their father is, unfortunately, a real possibility judging from what you're saying about your soon-to-be-ex-wife.

wolfmanjack wrote: »

One other thing which I omitted when I first posted this was that when we got married, I effectively did so because my wife (gf at the time) gave me an ultimatum to either get married or she would leave and go back to Italy with the boys. I know this doesn't say much for me but it was a big ordeal at the time and I didn't want to lose them.

Actually she may have done you a huge favour here as you would have had practically no rights if you weren't married.

There's also a Separation and Divorce Forum as well as a Parenting Forum where you might be able to get more information on people's experiences but they will probably vary wildly.

Ann84

I agree it's not easy (very plausible I'm afraid) and I am sure you wife will have the exact same concerns WHEN she is aware of the situation. The practicalities are you can apply to stop her removing the boys against your wishes but in reality, this is not a long-term real solution for reasons outlined above.
A practical perspective may be more useful to you that bullish force and it sounds to me like you are trying to legally tie your wife in knots before she even knows whats going on! It is not a good approach, so practical advice, visit to a solicitor as someone mentioned, to get your ducks in a row.
Then start trying to figure out how to get on good terms with your wife and think long-term.

clairefontaine

You have to take on board two things.

One is that you married and had children with a woman from another country.

Two is that YOU are the one who is going to end the marriage.

If you are really going to fight for your children to stay here by seeking a full custody order, be fully prepared to accept that she may then go back to Italy and your children will be raised soley by you and motherless. That would the endgame checkmate if it gets to a worst case scenario.

You will then be a single parent and will not have any leverage in being able to force their mother to see them and if you do want them to see her, then you will have to cover the expense of their trips back and forth to Italy. That will of course be outside of school terms so you are talking high season prices for two children.

And if you try to seek maintenance from her, she may counter sue with alimony, and even if she doesn't good luck getting maintenance from an Italian court as you will be seen as the man who took Italian kids away from la mama.

I strongly suggest get the words injunctions and courts out of your head right now, and focus on finding an amicable outcome. This will take a lot of time, do not expect it to happen quickly. It may take a couple of years for dust to settle after you break up a family. Go through mediation first and think through all the potential consequences of your decisions. These are the kinds of consequences that are very hard to undo.

sleepytrees

Instead of doing all this in secret. Would you not just communicate with your wife. I think she deserves that. Is marriage counselling not even an option?
You said there is no other person involved. The surely marriage counselling could be of some help? Please make sure you are doing the right thing because once you leave that could be it. Two kids are worth trying to make a marriage work. Relationships can suffer after children and sometimes we forget about our partners but this can be resolved.

youandme13

Seriously... planning for ages of breaking up a family without her knowing, making her seem bad when in matter of fact..the way your treating her you deserve it, and selfish in talking about injunctions and whatnot.. Basically you are stopping her have emotional family support AFTER you break her family life and heart!!! At the end of the day if she wants to go back to Italy that's her choice and you will just have to be amicable with her for co-parenting. I'm sure flights over and back etc won't be very expensive and you have skype and mobile phones! Even if it goes to court, the Judge can decide that it's a better option for your kids to be over in Italy!!

Starokan

were i in your shoes i would visit a solicitor and get legal advice, that way you are in full knowledge of what to expect.

who knows what your wifes reaction will be , she could be devastated or she might be happy enough to be done with it too. If your that unhappy its possible she is too.

Sleepy

OP, I'll get slated for this advice but unless your wife has some very strong ties to Ireland, you've got two choices: remain in your marriage and see your kids every day or end the marriage and see them at holidays.

Short term you may get your injunction but in the long-run, no judge is going to side with you as the sole custodian when she's the primary care-giver (ability to provide for the kids doesn't seem to come into these things as legally, your earnings are the family's income - she earns her half of that by staying home with the kids).

I really wouldn't advise going down this route without at least trying marriage counselling. It's a sad but all too real fact that many men in this country are trapped in marriages they'd never stay in were it not for the fact they'd lose their children if they didn't (just look at the number of marriages that fall apart as soon as the youngest child leaves for college). Our Family Law system is a farce that's best avoided if at all possible.

tbh

Sleepy wrote: »

OP, I'll get slated for this advice but unless your wife has some very strong ties to Ireland, you've got two choices: remain in your marriage and see your kids every day or end the marriage and see them at holidays.

Choice 3: he could move to Italy. And If its too much to expect that he uproot himself and live away from his family in a foreign country where he has to learn the language just so he can be with his kids, he shouldn't expect his wife to do it.

I respect the guy for having the balls to call the end of his marriage if its really over but you'd have to assume the wife will at least think about moving home. And who could blame her?

Sleepy

tbh, apologies, I missed that option though in fairness, even doing that would leave him as a weekend father. Not something most of us relish the prospect of being demoted to...

In reality, unless a marital breakup is extremely amicable or the woman is far more reasonable than the norm, the father ends up as a second-class parent who gets to see their children for a day or two a week.

clairefontaine

Sleepy wrote: »

tbh, apologies, I missed that option though in fairness, even doing that would leave him as a weekend father. Not something most of us relish the prospect of being demoted to...

In reality, unless a marital breakup is extremely amicable or the woman is far more reasonable than the norm, the father ends up as a second-class parent who gets to see their children for a day or two a week.

A weekend father might be better than a summer holiday and SKYPE one.

desbrook

Sleepy wrote: »

tbh, apologies, I missed that option though in fairness, even doing that would leave him as a weekend father. Not something most of us relish the prospect of being demoted to...

In reality, unless a marital breakup is extremely amicable or the woman is far more reasonable than the norm, the father ends up as a second-class parent who gets to see their children for a day or two a week.

Firstly guys I am a separated father of two lads for the last two years so I have SOME experience . Not claiming to be an expert though .

On the " will she / can she/ should she - take the kids to Italy ? " question a few things strike me . The children are Irish citizens and as far as I know there are protections to stop them being taken or kept out of the country against a parent's wishes . I imagine too that it would be far more difficult for your wife to claim spousal or child maintainance from you if you are here and she is back home . Get legal advice on this but I see this as your trump card .

Really what I want to knock on the head is this notion of "second-class parent " . Firstly 50/50 time with either parent is just not practical in most cases and plenty of studies have kids themselves don't like it . Even though a father may have his kids for one or two days a week it often represents nearly or often half of a child's free time .

Most times I have my kids there's no school of homework to get in the way . Neither is there my wife there either ! Within reason I can do what I want to do and we can visit places/play sports or whatever takes our fancy. I say within reason because there has to be some respect for the fact that the kids are under her roof most nights . I don't go out of my way to flout her rules not because I'm afraid of her but because it's not good for the kids . Overall though I have a closer bond with the lads now than I ever had and we probably have more fun than ever too !

On the more formal side we have a separation agreement which binds us to parent together and clearly sets out (among other things) my wife's responsibilities to me re the kids . There are clear stipulations as regards the passing on of school reports , parent teacher meetings , discussing medical decisions etc etc . In fairness to my wife she exceeds what's demanded of the agreement .

The family law system in this country is not perfect . There isn't a country in the world where it's perfect ! AND it does three things better than most :
It ignores "fault" in marraige breakdown to a very large degree which lessens conflict .

It put the children first (THEIR rights - not mother's not father's ) .

It has good regard for a father genuinely trying to have input into his kids .

a posse ad esse

desbrook wrote: »

The children are Irish citizens and as far as I know there are protections to stop them being taken or kept out of the country against a parent's wishes.

Actually their mother is Italian so the sons are classified Italian as well. She can go to the embassy and register them and they would be given passports in a week. My mother is Italian and we always held both nationalities/passports. Italy is an EU nation, she is not taking them to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. The boys are very young and not in school so they have not developed any social ties to Ireland other than being born there. Mothers are almost always the full time carers and if the marriage dissolves she needs help and support (not talking finances here). Her support is going to be the help of her parents, siblings which none live over in Ireland.

What really gets to me is as to why the OP is doing this in secrecy and not discuss this to her as a civil adult? How does he expect her to stay in Ireland with no family ties of her own other than two very young children? In essence, the husband is her family but if that is no longer going to be the case, what else is she expected to do? The OP should count his lucky stars that his wife is Italian not Australian! Italy is a hell of a lot closer, cheaper and easier to travel to.

Sleepy

desbrook, your ex sounds like a very reasonable woman. Unfortunately not all spurned women are so reasonable and even when the courts award reasonable access to a father, the Irish legal system does nothing to help enforce access agreements. For the OP, this is a valid concern. And forgive the stereotyping here but Italian women are rather famed for being fairly turbulent (and the OP's wife would appear to live up to this stereotype with her previous ultimatums).

Maybe this is off-topic, and it's not meant with any malice whatsoever, but from your description of your relationship with your kids you do all the fun things with them whilst their mother does the day-to-day parenting. That sounds more like a "favourite uncle" role to me than my idea of being a father. Maybe the OP's views would completely disagree with mine (as I'm sure yours do) but the purpose of this forum isn't to be "right", it's to give some different views for the OP to reflect on in order to help with their current situation.

In my view, a non custodial father misses out on much of the parenting experience and can become left somewhat on the outside of the family unit (particularly in the case of the mother re-marrying or moving in with a new partner). I'm a step-father to a little boy myself and while we're very lucky in that we act as one big family (his dad was one of my groomsmen and has become one of my best mates) the reaction we get from many would make me believe we're very much the exception rather than the rule.

homerjay2005

would taking the kids passports help to stop her taking the children out of the country?

a posse ad esse

homerjay2005 wrote: »

would taking the kids passports help to stop her taking the children out of the country?

No because the mother can get them an Italian one

clairefontaine

a posse ad esse wrote: »

No because the mother can get them an Italian one

You might be incorrect about that.

She cannot get a passport without the father's permission. Also you would have to check Italian citizenship rules, whether you can get secondary citizenship through the mother, it may only be paternal.

But it's not like you need a passport to get to Italy. Boats and trains can get you there.

homerjay2005

a posse ad esse wrote: »

No because the mother can get them an Italian one

doesnt work that easy im afraid. You cant just "get" a passport.

a posse ad esse

You guys are right. I spoke with my mother over the phone earlier today and she told me that my father had to be present for my brothers during the application process for Italian passport and my mother was present for mine when I was getting the Irish passport. Only when you're 18 you do not need your parents just their documents. Thank g-d for everyone's sake!

wolfmanjack

Just wanted to check back in here again. I note how many female posters immediately jump to the aid of my spouse when they don't know the entire situation. One poster even mentioned I deserve what I get for the way that I've treated her when they don't even know the situation.

The reason I'm posting here again is because I have very valid concerns about my wife's behavior. I know that when the time comes she will become extremely vindictive based on past experiences and tbh I'm getting to the end of my tether.
To give you an example of what goes on:

In work during last week, a female colleague answered my phone when she called and she got enraged with jealously and had a fit.
When we have an argument (e.g. over the telephone incident) she threatens to call the guards and tell them I hit her.
Smashes the TV or breaks general household items when we have an argument.
Goes through my phone, email, text msgs etc
I'm interrogated over female facebook friends
She doesn't agree with me going out with "the lads" which is only once or twice per year, and even though I won't back down and go anyway there is always an argument just before I go out and then she will either a) constantly call my phone all night long b) call my friends who are with me to confirm where I am and what I'm doing c) Turn up unannounced which becomes very awkward and I just end up going home.

She doesn't get on with my family, or a lot of other people for little or no reason as far as I can see. Since she has been in this country she has fallen out with approx twenty people (I did a rough count one day) from friends to flat mates and has been let go from two jobs the reasons for which were always a bit vague. I try to outline to her that all of these people cannot be in the wrong and ask her to try and reflect on her own behaviour but it falls on deaf ears. If that was me, and I was consistently falling out with people I would realise that the common denominator in all of these incidents was me and that it cannot always be the other persons fault, but when I try to explain this to her she just thinks she's great and that she doesn't take BS and as she's just sticking up for herself.

I want to confirm that there are no third parties involved in this however I want to get all my ducks in a row and I'm conscious that when I give her the news that she will call the guards and say that I've hit her.

tbh

wolfmanjack wrote: »

Just wanted to check back in here again. I note how many female posters immediately jump to the aid of my spouse when they don't know the entire situation. One poster even mentioned I deserve what I get for the way that I've treated her when they don't even know the situation.

The reason I'm posting here again is because I have very valid concerns about my wife's behavior. I know that when the time comes she will become extremely vindictive based on past experiences and tbh I'm getting to the end of my tether.
To give you an example of what goes on:

In work during last week, a female colleague answered my phone when she called and she got enraged with jealously and had a fit.
When we have an argument (e.g. over the telephone incident) she threatens to call the guards and tell them I hit her.
Smashes the TV or breaks general household items when we have an argument.
Goes through my phone, email, text msgs etc
I'm interrogated over female facebook friends
She doesn't agree with me going out with "the lads" which is only once or twice per year, and even though I won't back down and go anyway there is always an argument just before I go out and then she will either a) constantly call my phone all night long b) call my friends who are with me to confirm where I am and what I'm doing c) Turn up unannounced which becomes very awkward and I just end up going home.

She doesn't get on with my family, or a lot of other people for little or no reason as far as I can see. Since she has been in this country she has fallen out with approx twenty people (I did a rough count one day) from friends to flat mates and has been let go from two jobs the reasons for which were always a bit vague. I try to outline to her that all of these people cannot be in the wrong and ask her to try and reflect on her own behaviour but it falls on deaf ears. If that was me, and I was consistently falling out with people I would realise that the common denominator in all of these incidents was me and that it cannot always be the other persons fault, but when I try to explain this to her she just thinks she's great and that she doesn't take BS and as she's just sticking up for herself.

I want to confirm that there are no third parties involved in this however I want to get all my ducks in a row and I'm conscious that when I give her the news that she will call the guards and say that I've hit her.

sounds like a nightmare tbh mate. Was she always like this?

P. Breathnach

You paint a picture of a woman who is always ready to engage in conflict and willing to escalate things very rapidly. That leads me to wonder how suitable she might be to raise children on her own.

You have to consider what would happen to the children if you left.

tinkerbell

OP, it sounds like you're in an abusive relationship and you need to protect yourself as this could turn out as you being painted as the abuser rather than her. I'd advise you go down to your local Garda station and have a chat with a Garda about this. I'd also be worried about the safety of your children and you should be seeking custody rather than her.

LegacyUser

OP, you need to start recording some conversations with her, video, if possible, to gather evidence about her personality.

From your descriptions your children are not safe to be in her custody and you need to do whatever it takes to keep them from harm.

Goody2Shoes77

wolfmanjack wrote: »

Just wanted to check back in here again. I note how many female posters immediately jump to the aid of my spouse when they don't know the entire situation. One poster even mentioned I deserve what I get for the way that I've treated her when they don't even know the situation.

The reason I'm posting here again is because I have very valid concerns about my wife's behavior. I know that when the time comes she will become extremely vindictive based on past experiences and tbh I'm getting to the end of my tether.
To give you an example of what goes on:

In work during last week, a female colleague answered my phone when she called and she got enraged with jealously and had a fit.
When we have an argument (e.g. over the telephone incident) she threatens to call the guards and tell them I hit her.
Smashes the TV or breaks general household items when we have an argument.
Goes through my phone, email, text msgs etc
I'm interrogated over female facebook friends
She doesn't agree with me going out with "the lads" which is only once or twice per year, and even though I won't back down and go anyway there is always an argument just before I go out and then she will either a) constantly call my phone all night long b) call my friends who are with me to confirm where I am and what I'm doing c) Turn up unannounced which becomes very awkward and I just end up going home.

She doesn't get on with my family, or a lot of other people for little or no reason as far as I can see. Since she has been in this country she has fallen out with approx twenty people (I did a rough count one day) from friends to flat mates and has been let go from two jobs the reasons for which were always a bit vague. I try to outline to her that all of these people cannot be in the wrong and ask her to try and reflect on her own behaviour but it falls on deaf ears. If that was me, and I was consistently falling out with people I would realise that the common denominator in all of these incidents was me and that it cannot always be the other persons fault, but when I try to explain this to her she just thinks she's great and that she doesn't take BS and as she's just sticking up for herself.

I want to confirm that there are no third parties involved in this however I want to get all my ducks in a row and I'm conscious that when I give her the news that she will call the guards and say that I've hit her.

OP with that kind of abuse I'd advise you seeking advice from the Gardai, get in contact with AMEN (a resource for men experiencing domestic violence) and also seeking legal advice with regards to custody and separation.

I hope it all works out well for you but brace yourself for some tough times ahead.

Here's the link for AMEN:

http://www.amen.ie/

Goody2Shoes77

bananaRep12 wrote: »

OP, you need to start recording some conversations with her, video, if possible, to gather evidence about her personality.

From your descriptions your children are not safe to be in her custody and you need to do whatever it takes to keep them from harm.

As far as I know, recording someone without their knowledge/consent will not stand in court.
OP I would, however, document every incident that occurs and has occurred, with as much detail as possible including dates and times, this will stand to you more than any recorded conversation in court. Even better would be to report these incidents to the Gardai; least it's on official record then.

Tiddlypeeps

wolfmanjack wrote: »

Just wanted to check back in here again. I note how many female posters immediately jump to the aid of my spouse when they don't know the entire situation. One poster even mentioned I deserve what I get for the way that I've treated her when they don't even know the situation.

You don't need to justify yourself. If somebody makes wild assumptions about your situation you are better off just ignoring them. Their prejudices are their own problems.

Sorry to hear about your situation, I'll just add to what everybody else is saying that you should try to keep very good records of absolutely everything that happens. You are right to try and figure out where you stand from a legal stand point before you make any actions because when the s**t hits the fan it could all happen so fast you won't have time to think. At least if you have as many possibilities played out before you act you might be in a much better position to react effectively. As the old saying goes hope for the best prepare for the worst.

Goody2Shoes77 wrote: »

As far as I know, recording someone without their knowledge/consent will not stand in court.
OP I would, however, document every incident that occurs and has occurred, with as much detail as possible including dates and times, this will stand to you more than any recorded conversation in court. Even better would be to report these incidents to the Gardai; least it's on official record then.

Are you sure about this and do you have a source to back it up? It doesn't make sense to me because I thought CCTV footage is perfectly valid evidence in court.

LegacyUser

Goody2Shoes77 wrote: »

As far as I know, recording someone without their knowledge/consent will not stand in court.
OP I would, however, document every incident that occurs and has occurred, with as much detail as possible including dates and times, this will stand to you more than any recorded conversation in court. Even better would be to report these incidents to the Gardai; least it's on official record then.

I would recommend you get conclusive proof before posting such a statement, thanks. Who, for example, mentioned collecting evidence for a Court case?

I know a thief who was presented with covert surveillance video. Her choice was to fight it or accept it, knowing it contained the truth. She knew she was caught.

OP, if you collect evidence of her irrational and dangerous behaviour, by whatever means, it will strengthen your case.

Goody2Shoes77

Tiddlypeeps wrote: »

You don't need to justify yourself. If somebody makes wild assumptions about your situation you are better off just ignoring them. Their prejudices are their own problems.

Sorry to hear about your situation, I'll just add to what everybody else is saying that you should try to keep very good records of absolutely everything that happens. You are right to try and figure out where you stand from a legal stand point before you make any actions because when the s**t hits the fan it could all happen so fast you won't have time to think. At least if you have as many possibilities played out before you act you might be in a much better position to react effectively. As the old saying goes hope for the best prepare for the worst.



Are you sure about this and do you have a source to back it up? It doesn't make sense to me because I thought CCTV footage is perfectly valid evidence in court.

I speak from personal experience. Going through a very messy separation myself almost 3 yrs now and one day mentioned to my solicitor that I was sorry I didn't record a particular convo between my ex and I on my mobile phone to which she told me it wouldn't have been any use in court because he would have been unaware I was recording it. CCTV could be another matter, I don't know.

desbrook

Goody2Shoes77 wrote: »

I speak from personal experience. Going through a very messy separation myself almost 3 yrs now and one day mentioned to my solicitor that I was sorry I didn't record a particular convo between my ex and I on my mobile phone to which she told me it wouldn't have been any use in court because he would have been unaware I was recording it. CCTV could be another matter, I don't know.

Recording a PHONE conversation without permission is a different matter and covered by specific legislation . It is an offence in itself.

Goody2Shoes77

desbrook wrote: »

Recording a PHONE conversation without permission is a different matter and covered by specific legislation . It is an offence in itself.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear. It wasn't a phone conversation I was wanting to record; it was a conversation in person that I had with him that I had wished to record on my phone using the sound recording function but wouldn't you know that morning I accidentally dropped my phone down the toilet so couldn't in the end. Sorry for not explaining myself better.

a posse ad esse

wolfmanjack wrote: »

Just wanted to check back in here again. I note how many female posters immediately jump to the aid of my spouse when they don't know the entire situation. One poster even mentioned I deserve what I get for the way that I've treated her when they don't even know the situation.

The reason I'm posting here again is because I have very valid concerns about my wife's behavior. I know that when the time comes she will become extremely vindictive based on past experiences and tbh I'm getting to the end of my tether.
To give you an example of what goes on:

In work during last week, a female colleague answered my phone when she called and she got enraged with jealously and had a fit.
When we have an argument (e.g. over the telephone incident) she threatens to call the guards and tell them I hit her.
Smashes the TV or breaks general household items when we have an argument.
Goes through my phone, email, text msgs etc
I'm interrogated over female facebook friends
She doesn't agree with me going out with "the lads" which is only once or twice per year, and even though I won't back down and go anyway there is always an argument just before I go out and then she will either a) constantly call my phone all night long b) call my friends who are with me to confirm where I am and what I'm doing c) Turn up unannounced which becomes very awkward and I just end up going home.

She doesn't get on with my family, or a lot of other people for little or no reason as far as I can see. Since she has been in this country she has fallen out with approx twenty people (I did a rough count one day) from friends to flat mates and has been let go from two jobs the reasons for which were always a bit vague. I try to outline to her that all of these people cannot be in the wrong and ask her to try and reflect on her own behaviour but it falls on deaf ears. If that was me, and I was consistently falling out with people I would realise that the common denominator in all of these incidents was me and that it cannot always be the other persons fault, but when I try to explain this to her she just thinks she's great and that she doesn't take BS and as she's just sticking up for herself.

I want to confirm that there are no third parties involved in this however I want to get all my ducks in a row and I'm conscious that when I give her the news that she will call the guards and say that I've hit her.

If you have said some of this post from the beginning I am sure the responses would be rather different OP.

I don't like the sounds of this. Your wife is "unbalanced" and this is not only dangerous to you but most certainly the children. Very TOXIC environment for anyone to live in.

You've said she has fallen out to about 20 people. Are any of these people willing to back you up when the time comes? Having people on your side will be of great help and may assist in your case. I suggest going to AMEN and getting legal counsel as well. This is not only an issue for you but an even bigger issue regarding the safety of your children. The long term psyhcological damage to these children being raised by someone like that.

discus

clairefontaine wrote: »

You have to take on board two things.

One is that you married and had children with a woman from another country.

Two is that YOU are the one who is going to end the marriage.

Yeah, how dare he leave an obviously abusive relationship(!)

IvyTheTerrible

discus wrote: »

Yeah, how dare he leave an obviously abusive relationship(!)

Be fair, the poster you quoted posted that before the OP mentioned the abusiveness of his wife.

The Corinthian

First of all practicalities; you would have to pay spousal maintenance, and you'll lose at least half of your assets, including possession of the family home. As the sole provider of a homemaking wife with two children, this is going to cost you. The District Court can award any amount up to €500 per week for a spouse/civil partner.

Child maintenance will be on top of this. The District Court can award any amount up to €150 per week for per child.

As you're married, you're already a guardian to your children and this means it will be illegal for her to take the children out of the country or apply for legal documents such as passports. If she does, you can apply to have them declared kidnapped and the Hague convention (Italy is a signatory) will kick in.

As to bringing the children back to Italy, my gut tells me you'll be able to block her. Their habitual residence is Ireland. Do they even speak Italian? Where have they done their schooling to date? And of course, moving will mean that they will be denied access to their father with any frequency. I can't see any judge agreeing to that.

You will not get full custody. You wife has been primary child carer (and having a penis will go against you), so she'll get that. You should and will get access if you apply.

As to what legal strategy overall to adopt, I've not gone through divorce and so others can better suggest one. Better still consult a solicitor.

Now the Italian angle. I'm half Italian myself; I was born there, lived there as a child and at different times subsequently, Italian was my mother-tongue, and have been in a few relationships with Italian women, so I safely say I have a modest amount of experience on the subject.

Given your description of your wife, especially how you came to marry her, she is the classic Italian matriarchal manipulator. Think of an Irish matriarchal manipulator, but without the passive aggression holding her back. The home and family are the centre of her life. She probably has few, if any, friends outside of it. I suspect she also disdains Irish culture as barbaric; hygiene and alcoholism being common complaints.

Important to know is a few details about her; how conservative or 'traditional' is she? How religious? Is she from a city or provincial area? North or south?

These are important as they point to how she will view, and this react, to divorce. The more 'traditional' the less likely she'll ever stomach a divorce, which is both good and bad; bad in that if you force her to divorce she'll make sure you suffer for it. Good, in that she'll be more likely to compromise to avoid a divorce, so things become negotiable.

Many men are married to such women in Italy. Such relationships actually makes up a not inconsequential part of Italian comedy and drama. And drama is the key word, as the only way to deal with them is through screaming matches or simply ignoring them and telling them 'chiccia' (a Roman expression roughly equating to 'tough cheese').

It's a cultural difference that many Irish find difficult to deal with because of all of the drama that tends to come with it.

3DataModem

This may has been posted above... but as a preventative measure you can take the kids passports and keep them put of her reach. That'll ensure they don't disappear immediately after you leave.

clairefontaine

Im sorry but I refuse to believe this is typical of Italian or Irish women.

Obviously you need to leave this marriage.

How well do the two nations enforce custodial orders or the Hague convention? My impression is Europe isnt so great at this. Plus corruption in Italian courts make it more worrisome should you end up with an international agreement.

If she truly is as destructive as you portray maybe you should consider seeking full custody bur bar physical violence unlikely youd get it.

Do you think treatment would help? Was she always like this?

Why is she so angry?

The Corinthian

clairefontaine wrote: »

Im sorry but I refuse to believe this is typical of Italian or Irish women.

It's not typical of any woman, nonetheless some women do adopt manipulative, matriarchal persona, just as some men adopt, authoritarian patriarchal ones. How this manifests itself often depends upon the culture they draw from.

Obviously you need to leave this marriage.

Perhaps. Or perhaps a compromise may be found. Or not. Leaving a marriage is a lot more messy for men than for women as a rule, because of the financial and child custody issues that affect us more - so I'd think very carefully were I him.

Plus corruption in Italian courts make it more worrisome should you end up with an international agreement.

I don't think you understand how the Italian courts work - the problem is not that they're corrupt, they're no more so than Irish courts, but that they're bureaucratic and slow; really, really slow. I know someone who applied for child maintenance through the courts there and she naturally got it; but it literally took her years to do so.

Enforcing a ruling in Ireland under the Hague convention is less complicated as it does not have to go through the Italian courts, it just needs to be enforced.