United Left (stop laughing)

mike65

Clare Daly and Joan Collins (not that one) have apparently set the wheels in motion for a new socialist party called United Left , full story here, really what's the point? The rump of a rump and a passing home to peripatetic malcontents.

AlekSmart

mike65 wrote: »

Clare Daly and Joan Collins (not that one) have apparently set the wheels in motion for a new socialist party called United Left , full story here, really what's the point? The rump of a rump and a passing home to peripatetic malcontents.

Sheesh....I would have thought that when the Left becomes "United" in the sense put forward by Clare & Joan,that it then actually becomes "Right"....ie if everything on the Left unites under the pair of em,then they become joint Fuherina's for life...kinda thing....

Irish Politics....it really does'nt conform to the notions held elsewhere,does it ?

Manach

AlekSmart wrote: »

Irish Politics....it really does'nt conform to the notions held elsewhere,does it ?

We are just very special.

VinLieger

Doesnt a party really require more than 2 people, so instead they are the United Left Pair?

KyussBishop

Informative website.

BOHtox

Surely they all realise how ironic the name, "United" is.

Pete_Cavan

BOHtox wrote: »

Surely they all realise how ironic the name, "United" is.

This is the worst case of false advertising since The Neverending Story.

Sierra Oscar

And the far left wonder why they never get anywhere in electoral politics. The electorate cannot take them seriously with their infighting and squabbling.

It is pretty funny that the Socialist party managed to go through a split the second it got more than one Dáil seat. The likes of Joe Higgins are egomaniacs, and cannot tolerate co-operating with anyone else. That is why the far left will forever remain a non-entity. They effectively self-destruct as soon as they have any sort of electoral breakthrough.

PopePalpatine

Splitters!

Scortho

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

And the far left wonder why they never get anywhere in electoral politics. The electorate cannot take them seriously with their infighting and squabbling.

It is pretty funny that the Socialist party managed to go through a split the second it got more than one Dáil seat. The likes of Joe Higgins are egomaniacs, and cannot tolerate co-operating with anyone else. That is why the far left will forever remain a non-entity. They effectively self-destruct as soon as they have any sort of electoral breakthrough.

Thankfully!

stannis

Scortho wrote: »

Thankfully!

I was thinking the same. We should be grateful that the far left cannot really unite (or attract support from the general public, what with their moronic utopian policies).

So when will the Peoples Front of Judea formally declare war on the Judean Peoples Front?

COYW

Interesting idea from Clare and Joan, this United Left party. Where does Mick stand in all of this? The hard left really are a peculiar bunch. Their policies are going to make interesting reading.

laoch na mona

the first thing on the agenda will be the split the left idea of political unity is socialists working with marxists and Trotskyists

PRAF

mike65 wrote: »

Clare Daly and Joan Collins (not that one) have apparently set the wheels in motion for a new socialist party called United Left , full story here, really what's the point? The rump of a rump and a passing home to peripatetic malcontents.

Its a shame that we don't have a proper slightly left of centre party in Ireland. I think we need one. There are lots of things for what I would call moderate left of centre politicians to unite over:
- The excesses of both executive and public sector pay
- Universal access to GPs and Dentists
- The power of vested interests (including certain professions such as the medics and lawyers) who frequently engage in economic rent seeking to the detriment of wider society
- The continuing, altough slightly weakened, interference of religious orders in state affairs
- Environmental issues
- The requirement to boost education investment rather than cut it

Unfortunately, they get sidetracked and then blindsided by non-issues. They also get into such a siege mentality that they end up fighting every single govt issue, even when it is the right thing to do.

stannis

PRAF wrote: »

Its a shame that we don't have a proper slightly left of centre party in Ireland. I think we need one.

We do, it's called the Labour Party. Being in a coalition in times of tightened finances has stopped them from being as left-wing as some would like, but that does not change their essential nature. There's also Sinn Fein, which has sizeable enough support these days. Along with the ULA and leftish independents, I would say that Ireland has enough or more than enough of the Left. And it looks like FF could make some sort of populist lurch to the Left too in a cynical attempt to (a) get more votes at the expense of an unpopular "right-wing" government and (b) try to cover up all the mistakes they made while in power.

I write all the above as someone who is not particularly fond of any Irish party, by the way. I'm not biased in my dislike of Labour, I dislike them all.

SeanW

PRAF wrote: »

- The excesses of both executive and public sector pay

The left is in favour of excessive public sector pay.

laoch na mona

SeanW wrote: »

The left is in favour of excessive public sector pay.

says who

The Corinthian

AlekSmart wrote: »

if everything on the Left unites under the pair of em,then they become joint Fuherina's for life...kinda thing....:confused

Führerinen would be more correct, AFAIK.

laoch na mona wrote: »

says who

The left-wing parties themselves. Most of them fudge the question to some degree, an Labour fudges it completely, but what it comes down to is that they tend to hold the line that:

• Only some small, and generally unspecified, elite of public workers receive excessive pay.
• The vast majority of public workers should not have any pay cuts.
• Agreements, such as Croke Park, are bad as the workers should be out protesting against the government instead.

This new 'united' party sounds much like the fringe right-wing parties that spring up every now and them, before falling apart as a result of internal bickering and disillusion, when the people of Ireland don't magically vote for them.

Q. What do you call two socialists together?
A. A spilt waiting to happen.

Zombrex

While all politics has a strong element of self serving, the people on the far left these days just scream Its all about me

In a lot of ways this is a reaction to the fact that ultimate the socialist notions have largely failed, as society figured out how to improve people's lives inside capitalist systems, rather than chucking the baby out with the bath water. While we owe a lot to the workers movements of the last century for putting focus on the needs and dignity of the worker, we don't need to adhere the naive and extreme views that came out of that era.

But because the far left is so ideological they cling to these notions, making them more and more marginalized.

And again the only people who do this are those who have little genuine interest in actually improving things, but want to nail their flag to the mast of an ideology in order self aggrandize some aspect of themselves

Cody Pomeray

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

And the far left wonder why they never get anywhere in electoral politics.

Eh, the "far left" don't get anywhere in Ireland because of the simple fact that most Irish people are not Trotskyists.

The failure of the far left to turn Ireland into a Bolshevik-Leninist Republic is unlikely to have anything to do with Claire Daly's and Joan Collins' organisational skills.

rick santorums gimp

Zombrex wrote: »

..ultimate the socialist notions have largely failed, as society figured out how to improve people's lives inside capitalist systems

Surely it is some of these socialist 'notions' that have helped to improve peoples lives and should be given due credit; just as much if not more than this so-called capitalist system that's apparently solely responsible for all our wonderful improvements in some peoples eyes.
If it weren't for notions like universal healthcare, free education, public welfare, progressive taxation and employee rights, we'd all be a lot worse off.

A capitalist system? No thanks. I've read what that was like in the history books.
As you put it yourself, we don't need to adhere to the naive and extreme views that came out of that era.

The Corinthian

rick santorums gimp wrote: »

Surely it is some of these socialist 'notions' that have helped to improve peoples lives and should be given due credit;

I would agree to a great extent; socialism, or communism, acted as a counterbalance to capitalism for most of the twentieth century, regining in the excesses of unrestrained capitalism and pretty much all 'capitalist' nations have adopted some 'socialist' policies.

It's hardly surprising that with the collapse of the USSR and communism Worldwide, that capitalism went into overdrive and that many of the policies that culminated in the crash of 2008 were in fact the product of the previous two decades. Capitalism ironically needed socialism.

A capitalist system? No thanks. I've read what that was like in the history books.

Then you'll also have read what communism was like in the history books; I'd rather the Dickensian capitalism than communism's five-year-plans - better chance of my surviving, TBH.

Personally I lament the loss of the conflict between the two, which turned out to be what allowed us to keep at bay the worst of each and cherry pick the best of each.

Gbear

Zombrex wrote: »

But because the far left is so ideological they cling to these notions, making them more and more marginalized.

Of course the question then is; who do you respect more? Someone who sticks to their principles or a political wind-sock who does what they're told.

That's the problem with any government - people want to be lead but they also simultaneously want to tell their leaders what to do.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Personally I lament the loss of the conflict between the two, which turned out to be what allowed us to keep at bay the worst of each and cherry pick the best of each.

That must always be the way.

The employer/employee balance is that in microcosm.
They're both selfish and want what's best for themselves. In order to get actual fairness they need to constantly battle one another so that neither ever gets what they want.

oppenheimer1

The Corinthian wrote: »

I would agree to a great extent; socialism, or communism, acted as a counterbalance to capitalism for most of the twentieth century, regining in the excesses of unrestrained capitalism and pretty much all 'capitalist' nations have adopted some 'socialist' policies.

It's hardly surprising that with the collapse of the USSR and communism Worldwide, that capitalism went into overdrive and that many of the policies that culminated in the crash of 2008 were in fact the product of the previous two decades. Capitalism ironically needed socialism.

Then you'll also have read what communism was like in the history books; I'd rather the Dickensian capitalism than communism's five-year-plans - better chance of my surviving, TBH.

Personally I lament the loss of the conflict between the two, which turned out to be what allowed us to keep at bay the worst of each and cherry pick the best of each.

Thats a silly argument. Left wing parties have remained in all western countries. Capitalism and Socialism lived in completely separate bubbles with only few interfaces.

The idea that the fall of the USSR had any major impact on the regulation of financial markets, which has been the cause of the current trouble is absurd.

The Corinthian

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The idea that the fall of the USSR had any major impact on the regulation of financial markets, which has been the cause of the current trouble is absurd.

Except when you consider that the very left wing parties that once opposed capitalism began embracing it as it became clear that the system they previously supported was bankrupt.

Anyone around prior to the nineties, will remember the Marxist rhetoric of the left in politics or the trade unions. When Comecon and the USSR collapsed, this vanished in all but fringe groups and the opposition to free market economics vanished with it - not only in politics, but also in the minds of ordinary people.

This is not to say that the socialist ideology that they had been supporting wasn't bankrupt, but their constant opposition did act as a form of Devil's Advocate against many free market policies that were attempted in the West.

So I'd not dismiss this thesis so quickly.