Yet another suicide. Where will it end?

alpaca_man

I've been a long time browser here and I've just been reading the "feed crisis" thread yesterday and the sheer number of farmers doing away with themselves due to the intense pressure they're under. It is shocking.

I went home for lunch today only to be told that a local enough man whom my father knew well was found this morning after strangling himself in the shed. Apparently the banks or debt collectors were in his yard the other over money for a cattle truck he bought probably 2 year ago now.

I've genuinely lost count of the number of fellas that are gone through this sort of thing. The pressure is on all fronts and getting worse.

NIMAN

Are farmers any different to the rest of society?

Are they under any more pressure than Joe Public? Or someone about to lose their house? Or someone €200k in negative equity?

alpaca_man

In fairness, I think farmers are under far more pressure that your average PAYE worker.
For the average joe wage worker, if it all goes wrong there's the dole, rent allowance etc etc.
Like the self employed, for farmers, there's sweet bugger all support if things get bad.
It is little surprise that the vast majority of these type of suicides occur among the self employed and it seems to be a particular problem in the farming sphere as isolation and lonliness also play an increased role, particularly for older farmers. I know it's not PC, but I think the drink driving laws have at least some small role.

Actually I don't think I've ever heard of a PAYE worker strangling themselves over losing their income. There's loads of safety nets. Not so for farmers so if the business fails having the farm sold from under you is a distinct possibility - especially if you have machinery or land loans. And where are you then? In many cases employment in another industry is simply a non runner especially for older farmers.

For many, selling the land their ancestors worked would be unthinkable. Hence the feelings of no way out. I could list off the names of fellas I know who strangled themselves over the last few years.

dzer2

NIMAN wrote: »

Are farmers any different to the rest of society?

Are they under any more pressure than Joe Public? Or someone about to lose their house? Or someone €200k in negative equity?

Ah you see a lot of these people are attached to the ground its like they have roots. A long time ago a Farmer died and 4 neighbours bought the farm and split it up to suit themselves. One old bloke got the 2 fields he wanted the couple of years after were not great and he was under a little pressure from the bank over the loan. He told a few close friends about the mental strain he was under the bank treatened that they would sell the farm from under him.But in the end he died of a heart attack over the pressure. He had more money in the house than he owed the bank.:eek:

SolarFlash

A farm is to much responsibility for any one individual.

epfff

SolarFlash wrote: »

A farm is to much responsibility for any one individual.

As far as I see
It's not farming or banks that's lonely hard or pressure
it's the family identity for generations that's associated with it the property

alpaca_man

Well, I'm at home now and the mother is just after telling me properly. Apparently yer man was gone from the house in the morning and the wife got up to make the tea. She rang him to get him to come in for the breakfast and then she went out trying to find him. She found him still alive and a neighbour 2 fields behind us was called for help and she was trying to hold him half up again the wall until the neighbour came and could undo the flex. They got him down but unfortunately, by the time the ambulance arrived it was too late.
That's fair tough, with two young ones in the RTC and all.

And this all comes only months after the story of the Cork farmer committed suicide with his daughters, apparently from reading some googles on the subject:
one irish farmer commits suicide every week,
in 2009 there were 33 cases
the rate is increasing at 24% per year.

pakalasa

It's not just the farming community. Even today, someone was telling me that Limerick City has the highest suicide rate in the country, at twice the national average.

sillysmiles

NIMAN wrote: »

Are farmers any different to the rest of society?

Are they under any more pressure than Joe Public? Or someone about to lose their house? Or someone €200k in negative equity?

Yes.
Not only is it their business and livelihood but it is also their home and usually their ancestral home.
There is also the pressure over the last few months of longer hours and reduced sleep associated with spring time -calving, lambing etc.
Combined with the stress of trying to feed animals and care for them in a hard winter that came after a hard summer.
Combined with isolation as most farmers work alone for most of the day.

And since when were farmers not part of the "public" of this country?

NIMAN

Didn't mean they weren't part of society, simply trying to differentiate between them and people with office jobs, factory jobs, nurse jobs etc. No offense meant.

alpaca_man

Not to mention that it is by far the most dangerous occupation in the country. The casualty rate from farm accidents far outweighs that of all other industries, even construction.

Only the other week a man at the other side of town was doing repairs under a power harrow with the engine still on. His father didn't know he was under it and turned on the PTO. He is in a very bad way now, they don't know if he'll ever wake up. They say his sides "fell out" going to Cork in the ambulance.

If any of ye are doing work on a machine switch it off and PUT THE KEY IN YOUR POCKET. Don't be giving these sort of things an opportunity to happen.

Big C

JESUS WOULD YE STOP ABOUT WHO IS WORSE OFF, WE ARE ALL IN THE **** THANKS TO THE POLITICIANS AND BANKS.

sillysmiles

NIMAN, sorry to snap but I had read it as very dismissive. That is the problem with the written word I suppose.

If I (office job) lost my job in the morning, yes there may be mental health issues involved if I was unemployed long-term but I would still have a house and assistance. Also my job is just that - a job.

Being a farmer is different, its not just something that you can switch off - it is something you are.

whelan1

we have had 2 farming suicides in the last few weeks here, people havent gotten over the first one and there was a second one yesterday, really similar to the first, god help all those left behind

alpaca_man

whelan1 wrote: »

we have had 2 farming suicides in the last few weeks here, people havent gotten over the first one and there was a second one yesterday, really similar to the first, god help all those left behind

Christ above. There'll be no one left at this rate. This is dreadful. I'd say there's hardly a road in the country that hasn't had someone do away with themselves in the last few years.

Conmaicne Mara

NIMAN wrote: »

Didn't mean they weren't part of society, simply trying to differentiate between them and people with office jobs, factory jobs, nurse jobs etc. No offense meant.

Not to minimise anyone elses problems. There are some things in farming that can't be bought back so easily. For example it takes years to breed in good traits or breed out bad ones in stock. Improving land is another one. When those are lost, things can look hopeless, because to start over again - even if that's possible depending on the money situation - can be overwhelming. Often a lifetime is invested and that can be one which is on call 24/7 365.

One farmers good animal, another farmer won't like the look of etc.

R P McMurphy

alpaca_man wrote: »

Christ above. There'll be no one left at this rate. This is dreadful. I'd say there's hardly a road in the country that hasn't had someone do away with themselves in the last few years.

It is quite common for suicide to occur in clusters. Not that the act of suicide encourages others, more so that one suicide can bring the act to the forefront of someones mind that is already suffering from depression.

bbam

alpaca_man wrote: »

In fairness, I think farmers are under far more pressure that your average PAYE worker.
For the average joe wage worker, if it all goes wrong there's the dole, rent allowance etc etc.
Like the self employed, for farmers, there's sweet bugger all support if things get bad.
It is little surprise that the vast majority of these type of suicides occur among the self employed and it seems to be a particular problem in the farming sphere as isolation and lonliness also play an increased role, particularly for older farmers. I know it's not PC, but I think the drink driving laws have at least some small role.

Actually I don't think I've ever heard of a PAYE worker strangling themselves over losing their income. There's loads of safety nets. Not so for farmers so if the business fails having the farm sold from under you is a distinct possibility - especially if you have machinery or land loans. And where are you then? In many cases employment in another industry is simply a non runner especially for older farmers.

For many, selling the land their ancestors worked would be unthinkable. Hence the feelings of no way out. I could list off the names of fellas I know who strangled themselves over the last few years.

So I think your wrong there.. There is as much desperation in the PAYE sector as in the farming community.. I deal with SOSAD a bit and the numbers of horror stories coming across their desks is just awful, plenty of deaths from suicide - brought on from loss of income and loss of homes, broken families, its just awful..

As farmers we think the current trend of farmer suicides is exceptional, mostly as most of us are under similar pressures to a greater or lesser extent and that just brings it right home to each one of us..

But you must understand that its just as stressful for anyone to have their income decimated, people calling for money thats just not there, this is a universal stress across most of Irish society at present. the farming community are not unique at being visited by this.

R P McMurphy wrote: »

It is quite common for suicide to occur in clusters. Not that the act of suicide encourages others, more so that one suicide can bring the act to the forefront of someones mind that is already suffering from depression.

Your so right there.. After I left school six people I had been to school/college with killed themselves within two years..

The truth is that Suicide is at crisis levels in Ireland with little reaction from the government. Personally I would like to see a concentrated effort to bring the plethora of suicide support groups together under a decent pointed co-ordinates effort to combat this terrible plague.

alpaca_man

Something is definitely worse now though.
In the recessions of the 50's and the 80's there really wasn't any sort of suicides like we are having nowadays. Things are bad now but were probably much worse back then, people weren't doing away with themselves then like they are now - there seems to be stories about it in the paper and the pubs every day.

oxjkqg

my local area, wont name names, since the machinery show 2 prominant dairy farmers and a beef farmer did away with themselves. it aint good. since december 2011, 12 suicides..

1chippy

alpaca_man wrote: »

Something is definitely worse now though.
In the recessions of the 50's and the 80's there really wasn't any sort of suicides like we are having nowadays. Things are bad now but were probably much worse back then, people weren't doing away with themselves then like they are now - there seems to be stories about it in the paper and the pubs every day.

The difference is people got a glimpse at a different sort of lifestyle and when that was taken away they may have thought," slogging away for what?"

amacca

alpaca_man wrote: »

Something is definitely worse now though.
In the recessions of the 50's and the 80's there really wasn't any sort of suicides like we are having nowadays. Things are bad now but were probably much worse back then, people weren't doing away with themselves then like they are now - there seems to be stories about it in the paper and the pubs every day.

I dont know if I'm correct but a theory of mine is that there is a lot less in the way of close knit communities now than there was then and it is easier for more people to find themselves much more alone now...its just easier to become isolated

this is true in my case living in the countryside......despite joining things etc its very hard to have anything in the way of real friends/connections etc (in some places gaa it seems to me is the only show in town)....also very hard to meet someone/have a meaningful relationships too at certain ages etc (of course that doesn't explain people with a wife and kids - added pressure of providing for them etc maybe?)

maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me society is more disjointed less closely knit now than it was

another theory of mine and maybe its wrong - media/internet etc presents a view of fantastic interesting lives which for the most part are a fantasy that are unattainable for the majority of people......but it can be hard to convince yourself of this and much easier to feel dissatisfied/unhappy etc because your life (as you view it) is not successful etc --I reckon an awful lot of the unhappiness in peoples lives comes from comparing their lives to fantasy lives they are bombarded with on a daily basis and they ultimately cannot attain...lives they think their neighbours/acquaintances/work colleagues have and in many cases pretend to be living --most people want to project an air of success and dont reveal their true struggles to anyone.

again - maybe thats bolox but i've been thinking about this for a while and its all I can come up along with increased financial pressures etc

one thing I think I know anyway is that I don't think money troubles alone would ever be enough to push me over the edge - I would have to be unhappy/lonely/depressed/feeling isolated for other reasons and again maybe i'm wrong but i think while hardship/poor summer/lack of feed animals dying/banks coming looking for their money back etc is in all likelihood horrific there must be underlying depression/other factors at play etc

pakalasa

There is a serious amount of negativity in the country. I really notice this when I am out of the country and log onto say an internet newspaper. It's a constant bombardment from the media, tv, radio, newspapers. I think people have lost hope. We used to be a very spiriitual country. Most people were regular mass goers. This ended with all the child abuse scandals. The new religion then, became property and that has failed us too. People just don't see light at the end of the tunnel.

theaceofspies

pakalasa wrote: »

There is a serious amount of negativity in the country. I really notice this when I am out of the country and log onto say an internet newspaper. It's a constant bombardment from the media, tv, radio, newspapers. I think people have lost hope. We used to be a very spiriitual country. Most people were regular mass goers. This ended with all the child abuse scandals. The new religion then, became property and that has failed us too. People just don't see light at the end of the tunnel.

Lot of truth in what you say. Many people 'threw the baby out with the bath water' when the child abouse scandals came to light.

uck51js9zml2yt

Was watching the news last night. Vets are now being trained to watch for the signs of potential suicide as they are the ones most likely to be in contact with farmers on a regular basis.

Farmer Ed

Jedidiah Clever Sinker wrote: »

Was watching the news last night. Vets are now being trained to watch for the signs of potential suicide as they are the ones most likely to be in contact with farmers on a regular basis.

There is a very good poem on the farming Indo yesterday. It's about an Aussi farmer who was under big pressure because of the drought. But things worked out in the end. I would urge anyone who is feeling down because of the fodder shortage to read it.

epfff

Jedidiah Clever Sinker wrote: »

Was watching the news last night. Vets are now being trained to watch for the signs of potential suicide as they are the ones most likely to be in contact with farmers on a regular basis.

they also are the profession the highest rates

Conmaicne Mara

epfff wrote: »

they also are the profession the highest rates

Yes, it's a far cry from All Creatures Great and Small

alpaca_man

It's not just IReland it seems, it is an international and even global problem. Just reading something there that farmer suicide rates are twice the national average in the USA.
http://www.redeemingthedirt.com/2012/07/03/suicide-rate-for-american-farmers-double-the-average-of-other-occupations/

There is also a suicide epidemic in India with the drought an all. However bad off we think we are here, out in India it must be unimaginable suffering compared to what we have.

hould on hey

A lot of things bottled up is also a bad idea, it Can be No harm To talk about Your troubles And socalise as often as possible. Let it be at a local gaa match a mart or even a visit To The neighbours yard for a chat. This used To be The way upto about 15 years ago now its alll gone The paper would have you classed a criminal if you Were seen looking into Your neighbours yard To see if they Were about for a ceili

That's a lot of The countries problems they fear what The neighbours Will think

A bad year or a bad debt is nothing To be ashamed of

wandatowell

epfff wrote: »

As far as I see
It's not farming or banks that's lonely hard or pressure
it's the family identity for generations that's associated with it the property

Excellent point

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

alpaca_man wrote: »

Not to mention that it is by far the most dangerous occupation in the country. The casualty rate from farm accidents far outweighs that of all other industries, even construction.

Only the other week a man at the other side of town was doing repairs under a power harrow with the engine still on. His father didn't know he was under it and turned on the PTO. He is in a very bad way now, they don't know if he'll ever wake up. They say his sides "fell out" going to Cork in the ambulance.

If any of ye are doing work on a machine switch it off and PUT THE KEY IN YOUR POCKET. Don't be giving these sort of things an opportunity to happen.

The annoying part of this, is that most farming accidents are avoidable. The bit I have highlighted is so basic, yet we all know farmers that ignore it.


Suicide is a huge problem in Ireland, not just the farming sector.

alpaca_man

Mohammad Salty Vegetarianism wrote: »

The annoying part of this, is that most farming accidents are avoidable. The bit I have highlighted is so basic, yet we all know farmers that ignore it.


Suicide is a huge problem in Ireland, not just the farming sector.

I asking about it last night and there is talk now of turning off the ventilator. I suppose it's a month or six weeks now since it happened.
He should be doing the leaving or looking forward to college but instead he's lying probably brain dead or something on bed.

Another sad day.

yupyupyup

The real problem with farming is most farmers live on their farm and thus you can never get away from it. imagine farmers going to bed at night and not being able to sleep as their cattle are roaring in the sheds hungry for feed that they can't get their hands on. farmers feel a HUGE responsibility towards their animals and to see them starving is a huge mental strain for a farmer to take on.
No PAYE worker can or should feel the same responsibility towards their job as a farmer does to his.

bbam

yupyupyup wrote: »

No PAYE worker can or should feel the same responsibility towards their job as a farmer does to his.

Well surprise surprise but some PAYE workers have enormous responsibility in their jobs.. I've had instances at work where employees have been involved in accidents and hospitalised - the stress was unbelievable, contacting spouses to explain etc..

I had my manager and the site manager present when a machine caught fire during a dangerous operation, risks had been assessed, we had 4 trained men standing bye with fire equipment and a nurse too. But for a few minutes the employee was caught inside a machine with a magnesium fire, an extremely hot bright fire.

Delivering disciplines to aggressive employees who shout and throw chairs about the meeting room.

Selecting employees for compulsory redundancy, knowing full well they had families and mortgages to support... but it had to be done, crying or not!.

My point is that MANY professions have stressful events. Not seen and behind the apparently "handy" nature of them.

This is an awful time for Farmers, I gave away my last bales to a neighbour two hours ago as they were badly stuck..
But farmers are not alone in feeling hard times and being pushed over the edge either... Its just bringing things home to us, people in the very same position as us cant cope, the grace of god may be the only difference in us or them..

So lads, loose the idea that no job is as tough as farming.. its a nonsense !

whelan1

my da was at the wake of a local suicide farmer , this guy came up to the widow woman and said straight out was it due to financial reasons... like wtf, my da said he had to walk away, why go to a wake to ask that

Massey10

bbam wrote: »

Well surprise surprise but some PAYE workers have enormous responsibility in their jobs.. I've had instances at work where employees have been involved in accidents and hospitalised - the stress was unbelievable, contacting spouses to explain etc..

I had my manager and the site manager present when a machine caught fire during a dangerous operation, risks had been assessed, we had 4 trained men standing bye with fire equipment and a nurse too. But for a few minutes the employee was caught inside a machine with a magnesium fire, an extremely hot bright fire.

Delivering disciplines to aggressive employees who shout and throw chairs about the meeting room.

Selecting employees for compulsory redundancy, knowing full well they had families and mortgages to support... but it had to be done, crying or not!.

My point is that MANY professions have stressful events. Not seen and behind the apparently "handy" nature of them.

This is an awful time for Farmers, I gave away my last bales to a neighbour two hours ago as they were badly stuck..
But farmers are not alone in feeling hard times and being pushed over the edge either... Its just bringing things home to us, people in the very same position as us cant cope, the grace of god may be the only difference in us or them..

So lads, loose the idea that no job is as tough as farming.. its a nonsense !

What kind of risk assessment was it if a man was caught in a magnesium fire for a few minutes .

ABlur

whelan1 wrote: »

my da was at the wake of a local suicide farmer , this guy came up to the widow woman and said straight out was it due to financial reasons... like wtf, my da said he had to walk away, why go to a wake to ask that

That seems to be the standard reasoning for farmer suicide around my area too, 'maybe he bought a house during the boom and couldn't repay', seems that farmers can't accept that it might be the misery of the farm, bad weather etc etc that could drive someone to suicide.

On the same note did anyone read the Dr. Paddy Wall tribute in a recent Farmers Journal to one of his farmer friends from Meath who comitted suicide. He made the point that there are so many questions and such anger from those left behind because of suicide yet if the person died of a heart attack or in a crash it seems easier to accept. Maybe we should accept that mental illness is just that an illness that can cause death too?

Farmer Ed

Just looked at the forecast and there's not much rain for next week. Maybe not that warm but it will be enough for the grass to grow. Dont know how many people I heard say all day that the forecast was bad. But thank God it's not that bad!

With the help of God the worst is over. Looks like the Co-Op is even starting to panic about shifting that over priced €150 a bale hay they brought in from the UK and I heard a private firm in fermoy are now offering the same size 800kg bales of good quality hay for €85.

Massey10

Farmer Ed wrote: »

Just looked at the forecast and there's not much rain for next week. Maybe not that warm but it will be enough for the grass to grow. Dont know how many people say all day that the forecast was bad. But thank God it's not that bad!

With the help of God the worst is over. Looks like the Co-Op is even starting to panic about shifting that over priced €150 a bale hay they brought in from the UK and I heard a private firm in fermoy are now offering the same size 800kg bales of good quality hay for €85.

I think your right in cork there is more grass in 3 days than in the last 3 months .

4fsack

Massey10 wrote: »

What kind of risk assessment was it if a man was caught in a magnesium fire for a few minutes .

intel ireland

bbam

Massey10 wrote: »

What kind of risk assessment was it if a man was caught in a magnesium fire for a few minutes .

Full assessment by safety officer, Occupational Health, engineers, technicians, vendor and managers.
Full documented plans in place. But an unanticipated deposit of mag was ignited by touching two components together. Just lightly touching metal together is enough to ignite the stuff !! Scariest fire I've seen, and in a confined space it was unbelievable.

Thankfully the lad escaped with no more than badly soiled jocks, and an appreciation for being ready for any eventuality. The technicians would have sniggered a bit at the level of preparations for the job.

Massey10

bbam wrote: »

Full assessment by safety officer, Occupational Health, engineers, technicians, vendor and managers.
Full documented plans in place. But an unanticipated deposit of mag was ignited by touching two components together. Just lightly touching metal together is enough to ignite the stuff !! Scariest fire I've seen, and in a confined space it was unbelievable.

Thankfully the lad escaped with no more than badly soiled jocks, and an appreciation for being ready for any eventuality. The technicians would have sniggered a bit at the level of preparations for the job.

What kind of fire extinguisher do you use on a magnesium fire .Hows it used so much in planes if its that easy to catch fire .

kfk

bbam wrote: »

Full assessment by safety officer, Occupational Health, engineers, technicians, vendor and managers.
Full documented plans in place. But an unanticipated deposit of mag was ignited by touching two components together. Just lightly touching metal together is enough to ignite the stuff !! Scariest fire I've seen, and in a confined space it was unbelievable.

Thankfully the lad escaped with no more than badly soiled jocks, and an appreciation for being ready for any eventuality. The technicians would have sniggered a bit at the level of preparations for the job.

Frightening! And there I was with a fag in the mouth dosing a cow for grass tetany! One splash and it would be curtains for poor cow!