Mountain skills 1 course

jimmer123

Hi

just wondering if anyone here has completed mountain skills1 and what they thought of it.

http://www.mountaineering.ie/trainingandsafety/tier1viewdetials.asp?ID=9&Tier1ID=71

sparrowcar

Fantastic course. I did it a few years ago having never had any documentation or awards to prove all my years of experience on mountains.

It was great to refresh old skills and if I'm honest I learned many new ones.

The night navigation was great fun but spoiled a bit by a full moon which made cheating a bit easier.

Started the prep for mountain leader award but have not gotten around to doing yet.

Defo worth doing.

jimmer123

thanks spaarow glad you liked it.

sadly the night navigation isnt until mt2 really like the sound of that.

think i am going to go ahead and do it

Boardnashea

Yes, I would recommend the MS1 and 2 courses. Just formalises what you maybe already know but as above, you're sure to pick up something new as well. I just did the REC 3 first aid course and that also was very good. A lot has changed in the First Aid area since I last did a course so good to be up to date with current practice.

999/112

MS1 & MS 2 are very good courses. Nathan Kingerlee [posts on here from time to time] would be able to give you more info on dates & costs etc.

duckysauce

Did Ms1 and highly recommend the course will get around to the rest someday.

Orion

Doing the MS1 myself in 3 weeks with Mountain Ventures. Looking forward to refreshing some old skills and learning new ones.

Esroh

Did MS 1 and MS2 and they are great. the grounding you get set you up for your days in the hills.

UDP

Anyone know the costs of these courses?

jimmer123

Mountain Ventures charge €120 for MTSkills1 and €140 for MTSkills2

Rantan

I did MS1 recently in wicklow, really enjoyed the weekend, hope to do MS 2 and maybe get the MSA in before the end of the year if possible.

I'd highly recomend it

jimmer123

All positive reviews looks like this its well worth doing. Looking forward to doing it

Pat Mustard

I also did MS1 and MS2 with Nathan Kingerlee of Outdoors Ireland. Would highly recommend.

mr spuckler

i've been thinking of doing this and all the positive comments are definitely pushing me towards it.

Orion

Even if you don't go on to do the MLA or ML course it's still worth doing the MS1 just for the skills you'll learn that can only help on the hills

Orion

Did the course with Aaron in Mountain Ventures. I was already able to read a map, take a bearing and give a grid reference. But putting following a bearing in to practice when off trail on the hills was a great thing to learn (still needs practice of course). Learned a lot of valuable tricks for navigating in the hills such as handrailing, aiming-off and pacing (I've learned that 59 of my paces is 100m).

Definitely worth doing if you do any hiking in the hills - even if you stay on established routes. Well worth the money imo.

FrostyJack

I concure with the above, did MS1 with Nathan from Outdoors Ireland the other day, although I had a good knowledge of map reading etc, you can only learn so much from books and the internet. Putting all the stuff together in a practical way was great. Highly recommend it for any level of hillwalker, well worth the investment. Could literally save your life (or embarrassment for calling mountain rescue:D) and a great way to spend the weekend.

kerry4sam

Just completed my Mountain Skills #1 Course this past w/end with Outdoors Ireland and even posted some images in the photos thread stickied above (right here).

Out-standing team-work from both Nathan & Jason! Cannot commend those two guys enough. They were kind, professional, helpful, thorough and just pure sweet! They both brought the week-end together in such a way that made it enjoyable (even though my sciatica gave me grief); they delivered an outstanding educational week-end that I am already trying to plan manageable routes for myself to complete in between my preparations for the ROK Cycle 2013 and working.

The best decision I could have made and could not have chosen better company to be out there learning with. Thoroughly Enjoyable! Highly Recommend.

Anyone can feel free to pm me if they would like to know further details about what is covered

Thanks again to Nathan & Jason!

KilOit

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

Myself and the girlfriend are looking to do something like the MW1 course. Has much changed with the course in the last year? anymore recommendations?
Both of us have climbed some of the mountains in Wicklow but i would like to get some navigation training to boost my confidence hill walking in bad weather and to learn about the terrain etc

mr spuckler

KilOit wrote: »

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

Myself and the girlfriend are looking to do something like the MW1 course. Has much changed with the course in the last year? anymore recommendations?
Both of us have climbed some of the mountains in Wicklow but i would like to get some navigation training to boost my confidence hill walking in bad weather and to learn about the terrain etc

i'm keen to do this too so interested in any replies!

knucklehead6

i did it in june.

Well worth it in my opinion. Haven't done MS2 yet, but intend on doing it early in the new year, just want to get a few more hikes under my belt between now and then

kerry4sam

KilOit wrote: »

Holy thread resurrection Batman!

Myself and the girlfriend are looking to do something like the MW1 course. Has much changed with the course in the last year? anymore recommendations?
Both of us have climbed some of the mountains in Wicklow but i would like to get some navigation training to boost my confidence hill walking in bad weather and to learn about the terrain etc

Contact Nathan with Outdoors Ireland, details here. That's who two of us done our MS1 with and simply wonderful.

Can't mountain-climb at present, but can hill walk as it's less strenuous on my back and still use the skills I learned. Actually, being the swat that I am, I test myself as I go. Even just the preparations before setting off is wonderful to learn

That's who I'd recommend anywhoo,
Hope that helps,
kerry4sam

wrt40

Also interested in this. See quite a few rescue helicopters overhead where I live, gets you thinking. Is there anyone providing training in the Dublin\Wicklow mountains?

Alun

wrt40 wrote: »

Also interested in this. See quite a few rescue helicopters overhead where I live, gets you thinking. Is there anyone providing training in the Dublin\Wicklow mountains?

Yes, loads. Take a look here ...

https://www.mountaineering.ie/courses/

hmmm

The requirement for 16 hours of first aid training looks a bit excessive.

Alun

hmmm wrote: »

The requirement for 16 hours of first aid training looks a bit excessive.

That's only a requirement if you choose to do the MS assessment (MSA) which is optional. There's nothing stopping you just doing the MS1 and MS2 courses and stopping there, unless you want to go on and do a instructor or leader qualification, such as ML.

hmmm

Alun wrote: »

That's only a requirement if you choose to do the MS assessment (MSA) which is optional. There's nothing stopping you just doing the MS1 and MS2 courses and stopping there, unless you want to go on and do a instructor or leader qualification, such as ML.

Sure, and in case anyone thinks otherwise I think the MS1 & 2 are excellent and well worth doing.

FrostyJack

hmmm wrote: »

The requirement for 16 hours of first aid training looks a bit excessive.

If anything it is too short a time, especially the ML levels, if I was been led up a mountain I would hope the guide would know what to do should something happen.

Alun

FrostyJack wrote: »

If anything it is too short a time, especially the ML levels, if I was been led up a mountain I would hope the guide would know what to do should something happen.

You're required to have a higher level qualification for ML (REC 3) than for MSA (REC 2).

hmmm

FrostyJack wrote: »

If anything it is too short a time, especially the ML levels, if I was been led up a mountain I would hope the guide would know what to do should something happen.

At ML level, perhaps yes, but at Mountain Skills level what do you need 16 hours of First Aid training for? At best I'd argue you'd need to know what signs to look for, and how to get help.

FrostyJack

Yeah Rec 2 is about 2 days and Rec 3 is about 3 days if memory serves me correctly. There isn't much difference. MSA is a more personal thing so I suppose it is up to the individual, but if you were to take a couple of friends or family up on trek on the basis of having that knowledge, it would be good to have the medical know how.

BarryD

The basic difference that is/was intended to be between 'Mountain Skills' and 'Mountain Leader' standards is that the Mountain Skills is personal training - how to essentially look after yourself on the hills. Whereas Mountain Leader are the skills required to take responsibility for other people. Both are/ were intended to cover club type hill walking, where the individuals are just going out for their own pleasure. There are professional mountaineering qualifications for those who wish to make a living out of it.

Like all things, matters get blurred over time and in Ireland the Mountain Leader standard has been used by outdoor centres and the like as a standard for staff bringing groups out hillwalking etc. The professional qualifications are/ were seen as overkill and too onerous.

At Mountain Skills level though, the emphasis is/was on personal skills. The first aid requirement is odd and sits a bit uncomfortably with this idea. I think it has come about partly because the MS level itself has become blurred and is being used as a 'qualification', therefore first aid knowledge is seen as a useful skill. But primarily I think it's down to that blurring between personal responsibility for oneself and a general responsibility to others.

In other words, the MS standard equips the individual hobby walker with the basic skills to look after themselves but what happens if when out on a walk with friends, someone has a mishap? Somebody has to intervene to help just as an ordinary Joe citizen would when walking down the street and seeing someone take ill/ have an accident. The individual is then pushed into or takes on a 'leadership' or intervention role and this is the basic premise of the Rescue & Emergency Care programme.

However the first aid requirement still sits uncomfortably with the MS standard, since there's no particular obligation on the part of the MS holder to intervene, it could just as well be someone else in the party who has first aid or REC training or is a nurse/ doctor/ paramedic etc. The other person's injury or illness relates to everyone in the party, not just the person who has completed a MS training and assessment.

I say is/was above, since although I used to be heavily involved in these schemes, it's a good few years ago and thinking changes about qualifications.

hmmm

BarryD wrote: »

The individual is then pushed into or takes on a 'leadership' or intervention role and this is the basic premise of the Rescue & Emergency Care programme.

I agree with everything you've said. Having the requirement for 16 hours First Aid training puts the MS qualified person in an even worse position, because they could now be expected to step up when part of a group, even though the qualification is nominally supposed to be for them alone - an ML-lite so to speak.

If the 16 hours requirement came about because someone argued that a MS skills person may have to assume a group leadership role, I think the qualification is heading in the wrong direction.

BarryD

I can see your point and it has a certain validity. You could argue though that every person should do basic first aid training and be in a position to offer first aid. Though Rescue & Emergency Care is a little more involved as typically you can't phone and expect an ambulance to arrive in x minutes, when you're out on the hills. So in that sense the Rescue & Emergency Care type first aid is a personal skill for the hills.

But I suspect that's not why it's there in the MS. It's over 20 years since I was involved in the scheme but I'm fairly sure that it wasn't originally part of the MS assessment. It was there for Mountain Leader courses in the early 1990s alright.

Reality at end of the day is that there is an outdoor pursuits industry in Ireland and these 'qualifications' are used as part of the training courses and validation for instructors.

There's others who look in on boards here who are more currently involved - maybe they can give the rationale.

FrostyJack

hmmm wrote: »

I agree with everything you've said. Having the requirement for 16 hours First Aid training puts the MS qualified person in an even worse position, because they could now be expected to step up when part of a group, even though the qualification is nominally supposed to be for them alone - an ML-lite so to speak.

If the 16 hours requirement came about because someone argued that a MS skills person may have to assume a group leadership role, I think the qualification is heading in the wrong direction.

There is no requirement to take leadership after a 16 hour course as there isn't much you can do. Keep them warm, call for help and maybe CPR if necessary. If you are in a group and you don't want to do that when someone goes down then fair enough. I think most people wouldn't stand by. If someone has a pneumohemothorax or requires intubation, 16 hours training won't cover it and I doubt you would have the gear on you if it happened. Everyone should have basic first aid training and on the mountain when the HSE can't reach you for hours it is even more important. I imagine this is why it is included. It like the way most companies require a minimum amount of OFA's per head count.

BarryD

I think 'Hmms' point is along the lines that, take driving a car - it's a personal skill and everyone these days must do so many lessons etc. But it's not a requirement of the driving test that you have an ordinary basic first aid cert (regardless if that's a good idea). The driving test & standard is of your driving skills and doesn't extend to rendering first aid. That's a separate issue.

So the argument is that this should apply to the Mountain Skills course whose primary rationale is personal skills:

http://www.mountaineering.ie/TrainingAndSafety/ClubTrainingAndMountainSkills/MountainSkillsTraining/default.aspx

"The Mountain Skills (MS) training course provides a general introduction to hillwalking in Ireland and the basics of mountain navigation. Offering a solid foundation for gaining personal mountaineering proficiency, Mountain Skills training teaches the necessary skills in mountain safety, navigation techniques, knowledge of hazards, and personal equipment, so that a person finishing the course may be in a position to safely, and competently, take to the hills. Mountain Skills training and assessment also provide foundation training for those who wish to progress to further leadership qualifications, such as the Mountain Leader (ML)."

It's the last sentence probably that is the rationale for the REC course and cert.

hmmm

FrostyJack wrote: »

Everyone should have basic first aid training and on the mountain when the HSE can't reach you for hours it is even more important.

Basic yes - 1 hour max should be loads. I'm not about to give myself CPR, so why would I need it for MS which is supposed to be about individual skills and not training for leading a group? I feel MS is perhaps heading towards ML-lite which it really shouldn't be.

FrostyJack

hmmm wrote: »

Basic yes - 1 hour max should be loads. I'm not about to give myself CPR, so why would I need it for MS which is supposed to be about individual skills and not training for leading a group? I feel MS is perhaps heading towards ML-lite which it really shouldn't be.

What do you think you would learn in 1 hour? How to put a bandaid on? I understand where you are coming from with the cpr on yourself obviously if you go solo as this is how I hike most of the time but knowing the skills, like how to stop an arterial bleed, signs of hypothermia etc. I pack an IFAK (individual first aid kit) for example, should some one with medical training come across me injured. If Latin or Irish was part of the curriculum I would agree, but everyone should want to learn first aid, it isn't something to be seen as a curse. For self development if nothing else.

BarryD wrote:

It's the last sentence probably that is the rationale for the REC course and cert.

I agree somewhat but I think it is part of MSA because it is a skill you need. If anything it shortens MS1 and MS2 so they can be done over a weekend. If you had to add medical training to them ( though we did cover some of it) it would take away from the important skills like map reading, compass bearing etc.

BarryD

As Alun said above - if you just want the Mountain Skills knowledge, then do the two training courses and forget about the assessment. The way I'd read it, is that the Mountain Skills assessment is de facto, a sort of a pre entry system for the next higher awards inc Mountain Leader.

Oddly, back in the early 1980s, the Mountain Leader course was the main course for this sort of thing and ran over 5 weekends. The first two weekends were usually swamped with club walkers etc, by ML3 numbers had halved and by ML5, numbers were down to a handful. It was recognised that most people starting out had relatively little interest in leading others on the hills, so the first two weekends of the ML course were more or less split off and became the Mountain Skills course. There's been some refinement of the MS course since but broadly it still covers the course content that people came for back on the old ML1 and ML2.

So there's a touch of history repeating itself with the above.