Medicine in Europe

HeadPig

It's becoming more obvious day by day that Ireland is a sinking ship (for medics anyway). There's quite a few threads on practicing medicine in the UK, North America and Australasia, but not much on Europe.

I imagine we should have little trouble getting into France, Germany, Italy, Spain etc due to the EU? Anyone know what the training is like or what kind of hours doctors work in these countries?

Language would be the greatest barrier for most I'd imagine, anyone know requirements?

Agnieszka_88

I only know how it is in Germany. You have to apply for an Approbation (and you can only do that after the intern year, since German medicine degrees take 6 years). The whole system is rather complicated, a lot depends on the particular Bundesland (things like medical associations and some aspects of further training). With an EU diploma, you should apply to the "‘Landesärztekammer" in most states (there are exceptions). Most European schools are listed in a central directive so there shouldn't be any problems with obtaining a full licence. Recognition is a different piece of cake, you will need recognition for your specialisation and that's done on a case-by-case basis. All in all, if you did your training in the EU, it is generally considered equivalent to the German standards. You HAVE to prove that you know German at least on a B2 level, but your employer will probably demand further proof or that you take classes. Further training is similar all over Europe. There are board exams for every speciality which are quite intense long oral exams in front of a panel of doctors of the particular speciality.
But I can't stress this enough: if you're not more or less fluent in German, you will never ever make it here. It's not enough to know how to order pizza, your patients and colleagues will expect you to have a sufficient medical vocabulary to formulate a diagnosis and avoid misunderstandings. Don't expect that you will be able to get by with English, you won't.

It's not all rainbows and cupcakes, though, German hospital wages are significantly lower than those in Ireland (which is why many German doctors emigrate), but the hours are a bit more humane. Taxes are very high. The bureaucracy is legendary and the social system is a lot worse than it is in Ireland. There are some advantages to living here: no malpractice insurance costs if you end up in a hospital, the living costs are lower (but not enough to cover the wage difference), the healthcare system is probably as good as it can get in a social state and the public hospitals have all the newest toys. Germans are great if you make the effort to get to know them, they might seem cold at the beginning but they open up later. And the fantastic autobahns still have no speed limits.

HeadPig

Agnieszka_88 wrote: »

I only know how it is in Germany. You have to apply for an Approbation (and you can only do that after the intern year, since German medicine degrees take 6 years). The whole system is rather complicated, a lot depends on the particular Bundesland (things like medical associations and some aspects of further training). With an EU diploma, you should apply to the "‘Landesärztekammer" in most states (there are exceptions). Most European schools are listed in a central directive so there shouldn't be any problems with obtaining a full licence. Recognition is a different piece of cake, you will need recognition for your specialisation and that's done on a case-by-case basis. All in all, if you did your training in the EU, it is generally considered equivalent to the German standards. You HAVE to prove that you know German at least on a B2 level, but your employer will probably demand further proof or that you take classes. Further training is similar all over Europe. There are board exams for every speciality which are quite intense long oral exams in front of a panel of doctors of the particular speciality.
But I can't stress this enough: if you're not more or less fluent in German, you will never ever make it here. It's not enough to know how to order pizza, your patients and colleagues will expect you to have a sufficient medical vocabulary to formulate a diagnosis and avoid misunderstandings. Don't expect that you will be able to get by with English, you won't.

It's not all rainbows and cupcakes, though, German hospital wages are significantly lower than those in Ireland (which is why many German doctors emigrate), but the hours are a bit more humane. Taxes are very high. The bureaucracy is legendary and the social system is a lot worse than it is in Ireland. There are some advantages to living here: no malpractice insurance costs if you end up in a hospital, the living costs are lower (but not enough to cover the wage difference), the healthcare system is probably as good as it can get in a social state and the public hospitals have all the newest toys. Germans are great if you make the effort to get to know them, they might seem cold at the beginning but they open up later. And the fantastic autobahns still have no speed limits.

Thanks for the comprehensive and informative answer!

Agnieszka_88

HeadPig wrote: »

Thanks for the comprehensive and informative answer!

No problem! I've lived in Germany for almost a decade now, and while I'm not a doctor (yet!) I know quite a few, so I can probably answer any further questions.

hibridies

Hello, I was glad to find this thread and hope you can help. Having graduated in Budapest in september, and being Irish, I am considering my options.

Germany is a place I am interested in, for personal and travel reasons. The fact that training is much shorter there would definitely outweigh any time spent brushing up on my now rusty german.

However, would anybody know anything about the possibility of working back in Ireland/UK after specialisation there? Thanks, just trying figure out my next move. It's a lot to take onboard!

Agnieszka_88

hibridies wrote: »

Hello, I was glad to find this thread and hope you can help. Having graduated in Budapest in september, and being Irish, I am considering my options.

Germany is a place I am interested in, for personal and travel reasons. The fact that training is much shorter there would definitely outweigh any time spent brushing up on my now rusty german.

However, would anybody know anything about the possibility of working back in Ireland/UK after specialisation there? Thanks, just trying figure out my next move. It's a lot to take onboard!

Been away from the boards for a while now, so it took me a few days to answer this, sorry. You can definitely go back to UK/Ireland after specialising in Germany, IF you can get onto a training programme here. Further medical training is considered pretty much equivalent all over Europe, so you should have no problems getting yours recognised. But seriously, don't even try if you aren't pretty much fluent in German. It's not as bad as France, where people will just ignore you if don't speak the language, you can get by with English for most every day situations, but not on a job, and especially not if you want to actually work in a hospital. You will be required to pass a language certificate before you can even apply (at least B2, I think), and even that may not be enough during interviews. So the language is definitely something you should consider before coming here, as is deciding where you would actually like to live (the Bundeslands differ greatly when it comes to job perspectives, living costs and living standards in general).