Irish Rail and Free Travel Pass - rural station

Corholio

Just wondering what is the story with someone who has a free travel pass travelling from a rural station with no ticket desk? It says you have to present your ticket at the desk but some stations only have machines.

Is there any alternative? or just have to pay the ticket?

Con Logue

Corholio wrote: »

Just wondering what is the story with someone who has a free travel pass travelling from a rural station with no ticket desk? It says you have to present your ticket at the desk but some stations only have machines.

Is there any alternative? or just have to pay the ticket?

The contact information here should allow you to get your question answered definitively.

http://www.irishrail.ie/contact

Jamie2k9

If there is no ticket office and you have a pass then you are allowed to travel, you will either be given a ticket if there is a ticket checker on the train, if RPU staff on board they will most likely ask for ID and just show it to staff at the barriers at the station when you arrive.

foggy_lad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If there is no ticket office and you have a pass then you are allowed to travel, you will either be given a ticket if there is a ticket checker on the train, if RPU staff on board they will most likely ask for ID and just show it to staff at the barriers at the station when you arrive.

They are only entitled to ask for a sample of your signiture to compare with the signature on your pass to ensure that you are the person named on the pass.

They can not insist on any pass holder showing them any form of ID except where the pass holder lives in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway or Waterford where obtaining a photopass and using it with your travel pass is mandatory. If you are not obliged to have the photopass the RPU can not stop you travelling for not having or showing ID if they request it.

Hilly Bill

"They can not insist on any pass holder showing them any form of ID"

Where does it say that they cant Foggy?

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

"They can not insist on any pass holder showing them any form of ID"

Where does it say that they cant Foggy?

Show me where is states on any document that they can stop any pass holder from travelling if they ask for/demand/insist on getting ID and the pass holder says no.

Show where in the company's policy documents and guidelines for dealing with travel pass holders where it states that pass holders can be asked for ID apart from the provision of a sample of their signature.

Hilly Bill

That doesnt answer my previous question Foggy. Where does it say that they CANT ask for ID?

foggy_lad

http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_faq.jsp?i=4259

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/Passengers_Charter_English1.pdf

Passengers with free travel facilities
If you have a free travel pass issued by the
Department of Social and Family Affairs, you are
entitled to travel free on all Iarnród Éireann's
scheduled services listed in the Intercity,
Commuter and DART timetable.
If you have a free travel pass, you must present it
at the ticket office on the day you are travelling.
We will give you a rail ticket to travel, which you
must show to our staff when asked. You must
also show your free travel pass to any Iarnród
Éireann official who asks to see it.

No mention of their entitlement to demand or insist on seeing any ID here


http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/780_Free-Travel.aspx#3

3.9 EVIDENCE OF IDENTITY

Whenever a person is travelling using their Free Travel Pass, s/he must produce their Pass for inspection to an Inspector of the Transport Operator or to an Official of the Department of Social Protection, if asked. If considered necessary, the Pass Holder and/or his/her accompanying spouse/civil partner/cohabitant must also produce evidence of their identity by providing a sample of signature to the officials mentioned above. These officials have the authority to confiscate a Free Travel Pass if there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the Pass is being misused.

If a pass holder lives in Dublin, Cork city, Galway city, Limerick city or Waterford city, they are also required to produce a Free Travel Photo ID, which can be obtained from CIE, free of charge.

No mention of showing any ID here apart from a sample of signature.

Hilly Bill

It doesnt say that they CANT ask either. I think the OP has already go their answer, i cant see the need to turn the thread into something different.

Richard Logue

What is the official reason why anyone disabled gets a free travel pass?

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It doesnt say that they CANT ask either. I think the OP has already go their answer, i cant see the need to turn the thread into something different.

They can ask but they can not insist on seeing photo or other ID and are not allowed stop a pass holder from travelling if they do not show such ID if/when asked.

The only person turning this into something is you!

foggy_lad

Richard Logue wrote: »

What is the official reason why anyone disabled gets a free travel pass?

What do you mean? Those with certain disabilities can get invalidity pension or other disability payments due to their disability and part of the welfare package available to them is free travel.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

They can ask but they can not insist on seeing photo or other ID and are not allowed stop a pass holder from travelling if they do not show such ID if/when asked.

The only person turning this into something is you!

How do you work that one out?

Jamie2k9

If you refuse to show ID then you most likely don't own the pass and they can just report you anyway.

foggy_lad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If you refuse to show ID then you most likely don't own the pass and they can just report you anyway.

oh so free travel pass holders are all potential criminals now until they show photo or other ID to some RPU inspector?

There is no obligation on any pass holder to produce any form of ID except what is required by the terms of use of the travel pass. Failure to produce ID which is not mandatory can't be taken as any admission or indication of guilt or misuse of the pass.

Jamie2k9

foggy_lad wrote: »

oh so free travel pass holders are all potential criminals now until they show photo or other ID to some RPU inspector?

well if RPU suspect you are and you don't produce ID then you have something to hide they can report you.

Hilly Bill

Corholio wrote: »

Just wondering what is the story with someone who has a free travel pass travelling from a rural station with no ticket desk? It says you have to present your ticket at the desk but some stations only have machines.

Is there any alternative? or just have to pay the ticket?

If the booking office is closed, you just show it if asked,either on the train or at your destination.

foggy_lad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

well if RPU suspect you are and you don't produce ID then you have something to hide they can report you.

If they suspect you are using a pass fraudulantly or are using a forged or stolen/borrowed pass they can take the pass and fine you for that journey, they must have good reason for suspecting as they may find themselves in court otherwise.

They can't just decide that your pass is dodgey or fraudulant just because you refuse to show a bank card or other ID with your photo, name or address on it.

The only "ID" they are legally allowed insist on is a sample of the signature of the pass holder and any companion travelling with them that is named on the pass as spouse or partner.

Jamie2k9

foggy_lad wrote: »

If they suspect you are using a pass fraudulantly or are using a forged or stolen/borrowed pass they can take the pass and fine you for that journey, they must have good reason for suspecting as they may find themselves in court otherwise.

The only "ID" they are legally allowed insist on is a sample of the signature of the pass holder and any companion travelling with them that is named on the pass as spouse or partner.

Well when they fine you for that journey you will have to produce ID, now I am not going down this road with you.

Gatling

Actually I've been made produce photo id on Dublin bus and CIE train,
I believe there's going to be a clampdown on pass's that don't have the photo id with them

Jamie2k9

Gatling wrote: »

Actually I've been made produce photo id on Dublin bus and CIE train,
I believe there's going to be a clampdown on pass's that don't have the photo id with them

Indeed there is and about time.

foggy_lad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Well when they fine you for that journey you will have to produce ID, now I am not going down this road with you.

I have been in contact with Irish Rail and the free travel section in relation to this and they are not entitled to insist on seeing any form of ID apart from asking for a sample of the signature of the pass holder, this has been confirmed by Irish Rail and by the DSP free travel section. you should check with both of these offices as you clearly don't believe me.

Gatling

I've family member bus driver that recently confiscated an OAP pass from a 20 year old student who went to the length of having his picture of him in a school jumper and tie stuck on top of the oringnal oap's picture

foggy_lad

Gatling wrote: »

Actually I've been made produce photo id on Dublin bus and CIE train,
I believe there's going to be a clampdown on pass's that don't have the photo id with them

If you live in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway or Waterford you must obtain a special photo-pass and use it at all times with your travel pass. outside of these urban centres you are not obliged or required to show photo ID to use your pass.

Gatling

foggy_lad wrote: »

If you live in Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway or Waterford you must obtain a special photo-pass and use it at all times with your travel pass. outside of these urban centres you are not obliged or required to show photo ID to use your pass.

Yeah you have a month to obtain one ,
But it completely contridics the above info if your city based you need photo id if your based rural you don't

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

I have been in contact with Irish Rail and the free travel section in relation to this and they are not entitled to insist on seeing any form of ID apart from asking for a sample of the signature of the pass holder, this has been confirmed by Irish Rail and by the DSP free travel section. you should check with both of these offices as you clearly don't believe me.

Thats not true Foggy. If they have a reason to believe that the pass may not be yours they have a right to ask for proof of ID apart from the signature.
I can guarantee that you would not have been told otherwise.
Can you give me the number to the free travel section as i didnt know that they had one. I'll ring them.

foggy_lad

Gatling wrote: »

Yeah you have a month to obtain one ,
But it completely contridics the above info if your city based you need photo id if your based rural you don't

If based in one of the 5 urban areas listed you must obtain the photopass(this is not a form of ID) and it becomes part of your pass, if either is used separately it should be confiscated and returned to the DSP.

The photopass is required in urban areas to prevent fraudulent use by identifying you as the pass holder and was originally to speed up checking of passes by city bus drivers and ticket checkers/inspectors in city areas. The same was not required in rural areas.

As I said before I am in favour of all pass holders being "obliged" by statute, bye-law or other legal requirement to carry a form of photo ID(age card or passport, not driving licence) when using their pass.

It would take only a small change in the rules of the free travel scheme to rule out almost all the fraudulent use of travel passes.

What can not be tolerated though is people being forced to produce documents by transport staff which they are not legally obliged to produce.

Richard Logue

The whole free travel scheme is an unnecessary drain on taxpayers and is starving CIE of revenue. It should be scrapped as it stands and if re-instated it should be restricted to off peak times only.

Travelling free around the country just for the crack at any time is stealing money from taxpayers and CIE.

Victor

Richard Logue wrote: »

Travelling free around the country just for the crack at any time is stealing money from taxpayers and CIE.

Trolling for a reaction not welcome.

Moderator

dowlingm

I think foggy is on stronger ground than those disputing him, in the section there is no explicit permission given to the Inspectors to request any ID other than a signature and no explicit requirement for the traveller to carry an ID other than the CIE Free Travel Photo ID and that only in urban areas, and a traveller relying on that would be hard to counter if it went to law.

The reality is that once phrases like "reasonable grounds" are thrown around there is at least some latitude for the inspectors and it would take someone taking it to court and his counsel requesting a copy of the Company's inspection protocols to know for sure what each set of inspectors have been told they can do and whether any freelancing is going on either by the Company vis-a-vis Welfare or the Inspectors vis-a-vis the Company. It is likely that the Company would seek to settle or otherwise dispose of any complaint likely to embarrass them by highlighting such, and few FTP holders have the deep pockets to press on with an action regardless.

EDIT: also - I think pointing out the lacunae in the inspection protocols by posters here shouldn't be treated by others as said posters endorsing the decision to restrict enhanced identification to urban areas.

AlekSmart

foggy_lad wrote: »

If they suspect you are using a pass fraudulantly or are using a forged or stolen/borrowed pass they can take the pass and fine you for that journey, they must have good reason for suspecting as they may find themselves in court otherwise.

They can't just decide that your pass is dodgey or fraudulant just because you refuse to show a bank card or other ID with your photo, name or address on it.

The only "ID" they are legally allowed insist on is a sample of the signature of the pass holder and any companion travelling with them that is named on the pass as spouse or partner.

While Foggy,is in some ways correct,his sense of triumph may not quite carry as far on BAC services should an ID issue arise...

Whilst all of the points regarding Urban areas and photo ID is a given,as is the signature sample for the provincials,it is worth noting that the general conditions of carriage apply equally to DSP holders as to any other passengers.

In the case of BAC,the Dublin Bus Bye Laws of 1996 provide for a somewhat more robust approach,should it be deemed necessary...

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/About-Us/Dublin-Bus-Bye-Laws/Enforcement-Procedures/

(a) Any person who is reasonably suspected by an authorised person of contravening or attempting to contravene these Bye-Laws shall upon being requested so to do give his name and address to an authorized person who is an inspector, driver or conductor in uniform or who produces evidence of identity.

(b) The person aforesaid shall on the request of the authorised person remain in the company of the authorised person pending verification of the name and address.

(c) Where any such person refuses or fails to comply with a request under paragraph (a) or (b) of this Bye-Law or following such request such person gives a name and address which the authorised person has reasonable grounds for believing is false or misleading, such person may be detained by the authorised person until the arrival of a member of the Garda Síochána.

So it is entirely possible that "They" could form an opinion that a Free Travel Document is indeed "dodgy or fraudulent" subsequent upon a holder/user failing to satisfactorily verify their identity.

I'm uncertain as to whether Foggy is suggesting some form of civil disobedience as a response to being requested to verify ID,but if he is than I would be reluctant to follow his,doubtless strongly held beliefs.

It is also worth noting that the DSP Free Travel Scheme is non-statutory,and therefore not quite as much of an "entitlement" as many have grown to believe.

foggy_lad

Free travel pass holders may not have deep pockets for taking CIE to court but you can be sure civil liberties groups would be queing up to pay for the case.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Free travel pass holders may not have deep pockets for taking CIE to court but you can be sure civil liberties groups would be queing up to pay for the case.

Their pockets should be deep enough with all the money they are saving.

This thread has gone a bit silly now.

BenShermin

Shows how much I know, I thought all free pass holders had to have a photo ID attached to the document. When my father turned 66 recently, going into 51 Upper O'Connell for his photo ID was the first trip he took on his free travel pass.

DSFA free travel pass needs to be incorporated into the Leap Card ASAP IMO. The DSFA leap should have photo ID on it as standard.

My local Dublin Bus route is the 40, and the fare evasion on this route with fraudulent free travel passes is unreal. If I repeated some of the stories here the mods would rightly infract me....

alan18

hi.. i have just got my free pass , can i go to any station and get a train or do i have to book before hand ?

Jamie2k9

alan18 wrote: »

hi.. i have just got my free pass , can i go to any station and get a train or do i have to book before hand ?

Just go to station at busy times such as special events you might be best booking a seat online to guarantee a seat but its really optional.

Victor

alan18 wrote: »

hi.. i have just got my free pass , can i go to any station and get a train or do i have to book before hand ?

Booking not necessary, although if travelling at peak time or as part of a group it can be useful. To book, go to www.irishrail.ie input your origin & destination and date & time of travel. Then select "Reserve Seat Only", while deselecting any other tickets. It costs €5 per ticket per direction. Booking is only available on intercity services. Sometimes the reservations don't show on the train carriage.

Just check the rules about whether you need to get a ticket. For intercity journeys, get a ticket at the ticket office on the day (you can get a day return ticket if you want). If the office is closed, get a ticket as soon as you can. For DART no ticket is needed. Non-reserved tickets are free.

If you need travel assistance, contact Irish Rail using the details here: http://www.irishrail.ie/travel-information/disabled-access

For bus operators just show the driver the pass.

For Luas, just carry the pass and show the inspector if asked.