Strong, light, cheap. Pick two.. or not?

AstraMonti

Strong, light, cheap. Pick two.

This is a saying from Keith Bontrager that we have been hearing for lots of years now and I am going to (hopefully) start a debate if this still is the case. The far east components have come quite a long way the last few years in forms of actual companies or just distributors.

And I am going to start with frames. We can easily understand what light and cheap means, but what does strong mean? That it won't spontaneously explode? That it's not a noodle?
I ll give an example, I have two PlanetX bikes, a low end and a high end, both made in some factory in China. The first one has done more than 12.000kms and it has been great so far. It's light and (now) it's very cheap. Strong? Well it hasn't disintegrated into a pile of ash and yes it's not the stiffest bike in the world but it's fine for majority of the recreational users. The second one is lighter, still cheap and much stiffer frame than the previous one. Has gone up and down mountains of Ireland and Europe without breaking either. Does it tick all 3 boxes? In my books yes. Now onto another example, the very popular chinese FM66 SL frame. Very light, very cheap and super stiff. The large amount of good reviews in the net also display that durability is not an issue too. I can give more examples too, ribble bikes for example are cheap, fairly light and robust as well.

Now onto wheels. Again the cheap and light is fairly self explanatory but the strong? Are we talking again about stiffness or durability? Again I believe you can get all 3 by selecting handbuilt stuff. Kinlin, BHS, h+son few examples of cheap, light and durable aluminum rims. There is an ocean of good, cheap and durable hubs out there, novatec is some of the most popular. And about carbon rims? Again the chinese have come a long way the last years, even developing (and not copying) their own heat resistant brake tracks and wide rims.

And are we still in the same boat as 10 years ago? Is it a brand snobbery or brand safety that holds it back?

P.S. I don't want this to go to a far east vs brands debate, that's not the purpose of this thread.

lennymc

I think that someone who weighs < 70kg doesnt need to think about strength and durability as much as someone who is 85kg. I think its all relative. Again, a set of light low spoke wheels might be fine for an out and out climber who might not put out a lot of power, but may not be suitable for a pure sprinter who is gonna put out quite a bit of power in comparison. Maybe its horses for courses. Strong might be very different from one person to the other.

bcmf

I ride a Hong Fu 001.
Light enough for me.
I am a big fooker and hasn't disentregrated on me yet. (though will replace the forks shortly just to be sure).
So strong enough.
Cheap.Hell yeah
Ticks all the boxes for me

colm_gti

AstraMonti, how did you find your handbuilt Kinlin clinchers?

DirkVoodoo

AstraMonti wrote: »

The first one has done more than 12.000kms and it has been great so far. It's light and (now) it's very cheap. Strong? Well it hasn't disintegrated into a pile of ash and yes it's not the stiffest bike in the world but it's fine for majority of the recreational users.

If Martyn Irvine can ride an SL Pro Carbon competitively, so can anyone else. "Not the stiffest" doesn't mean much really, unless you can quantify it. Are you losing races because of the bike, or is it simply more comfortable than a "stiffer" bike? Granted, compared to a TCR Advanced the steering is not the most precise, but I could equally blame my poor bike handling for that.

Any bike is fine for recreational users as long as it's comfortable. Any bike is fine for amateur racing, as long as it's cheap to replace.

It's nice to have the top end bikes and the stiffest frames as tested by the Pro Tour teams, but it really won't make a difference to you or to me. Neither will riding a sub 7Kg bike.

If I had the money, I'd buy a Bianchi Oltre with Super Record EPS and Boras. I'd also have a team car follow me on training spins. There would be no reason, other than I could afford it and I want it. You can't bring "stiffness" or "weight" into the argument, these are all completely meaningless when you see guys kicking your ass on machines that would be more suited to commuting duties.

Seaneh

lennymc wrote: »

I think that someone who weighs < 70kg doesnt need to think about strength and durability as much as someone who is 85kg. I think its all relative. Again, a set of light low spoke wheels might be fine for an out and out climber who might not put out a lot of power, but may not be suitable for a pure sprinter who is gonna put out quite a bit of power in comparison. Maybe its horses for courses. Strong might be very different from one person to the other.

This, I weigh 110kg (yeah, im a big lad) and I'd be scared out of my fecking life of getting onto a carbon frame after a crash as I'd have no way at all of knowing what state it's in under the paint. I'd also find it very hard to trust a hong fu/deng fu bike for very long, I know frames are generally over engineered and 99.99999% of them would be grand with someone of my weight on it, but but how long? The brittleness of CF frames just worries me, I said in another thread I've more to be worrying about than saving a kg or two in frame weight, if I lose 20kg then I can think about a CF frame because right now it's the last thing holding me back!

For people at my end of the weight scale I reckon Steel is the best option for durability and peace of mind, Steel frames fail too, but they give you warnings and are rarely as dramatic as CF frames when they do fail, usually being fixable with a bit of welding, where as if I'm on a CF frame coming downhill at speed and reem into a big pothole and it's one of the .000001% of cases where the frame decides to split in two, I'm royally ****ed!

Once I lose a bit (lot) of weight and think about maybe doing a few races I'll revisit a carbon frame but for right now I'll take the weight penalty of a steel or alu frame and value the peace of mind I get from it more than worrying about destroying an expensive frame because I'm a big lad!

mirv

Snobbery and lack of knowledge I think. You can't go into most shops and get a23s/openpros/kinlins/whatever and novatecs built, but you can however buy factory built mavics, shimanos, zipps and so on. Planet X and Hongfu aren't names that people would recognise.

There's people out there who can't even close a quick release fully or oil a chain who will tell you how their deep section wheels are for climbing. Last year at an adventure race (WAR Powerscourt) there was a lad with full carbon deep section wheels who didn't understand the concept of cleaning his rims or brake pads. You could literally smell the burning epoxy/carbon in the air as he squealed and dragged his dirty brakes coming down from Powerscourt.

AstraMonti

colm_gti wrote: »

AstraMonti, how did you find your handbuilt Kinlin clinchers?

They were fine to be honest if you take in account that I overdid (or under?) it. If I had just 4 more spokes on the back it would have fine for weights up to 90kgs.

@Dirk I completely agree with you on all the points (I would even get the same bike ). What I am asking is, do we still set those 3 criteria as a valid ones when one has so much bigger choice today?

@Seaneh I 've never heard of a carbon frame failing due to weigh, and I can safely say that I 've seen bigger lads than you riding high end carbon frames.

Lumen

colm_gti wrote: »

AstraMonti, how did you find your handbuilt Kinlin clinchers?

He got too fat for them so sold them to me.

Seaneh

AstraMonti wrote: »

@Seaneh I 've never heard of a carbon frame failing due to weigh, and I can safely say that I 've seen bigger lads than you riding high end carbon frames.

Oh, I know that, I don't think a bike is going to implode while I'm merrily cycling along the road! What I'm saying is that someone of my weight will more quickly abuse a bike than someone sub 80kg, if ya get me?

Like if a climber hits a pothole at speed and comes off, there is far less likely to be serious damage to a frame than someone my size, if that makes sense?

And as before, I just wouldn't be able to trust a frame if I crashed hard ebcuase I'd have no way at all of knowing if there is damage without getting it looked at br a professional, where as with steel I'd have the benefit of being able to see any damage that might be caused and the fact that it's less brittle and more able to take the hits.

I've no deep distrust of carbon really, I just think it's false economy at my weight anyway, lose the gut first then worry about frame weight!

DirkVoodoo

Seaneh wrote: »

Like if a climber hits a pothole at speed and comes off, there is far less likely to be serious damage to a frame than someone my size, if that makes sense?

If you hit a pothole with enough force to damage the frame or forks, it will most likely be catastrophic. A smaller rider won't "damage" the bike any less, the pothole should take care of that.

But, if you hit a pothole and fall off, you will either go over the bars or sideways with the bike on top of you. I can't envisage a situation where you would hit a pothole, fall and land squarely on the bike in such a way that your larger frame would damage the bike beyond repair. A front wheel slip, perhaps, but even then you aren't going to land flat on the frame.

Seaneh

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

If you hit a pothole with enough force to damage the frame or forks, it will most likely be catastrophic. A smaller rider won't "damage" the bike any less, the pothole should take care of that.

But, if you hit a pothole and fall off, you will either go over the bars or sideways with the bike on top of you. I can't envisage a situation where you would hit a pothole, fall and land squarely on the bike in such a way that your larger frame would damage the bike beyond repair. A front wheel slip, perhaps, but even then you aren't going to land flat on the frame.

Right, think of it this way, I hit a big hole head on, roll over the hole but become unbalanced and lose control of the bike a few feet later.It's not the falling off that damages the bike in this case, it's the impact with the pothole (more than likely the fork would take the brunt, but whatever).
It happens, it's happened to be before. I'm not talking about the bike slipping from under me on a turn or whatever.

But anyway, like I said, it's not a deep distrust of carbon failing for no reason imploding under me. I'd just be worried about the state of the frame after a crash and not being able to know for sure if it's ok without getting it examined.

That and the false economy thing.

DirkVoodoo

Seaneh wrote: »

Right, think of it this way, I hit a big hole head on, roll over the hole but become unbalanced and lose control of the bike a few feet later.It's not the falling off that damages the bike in this case, it's the impact with the pothole (more than likely the fork would take the brunt, but whatever).
It happens, it's happened to be before. I'm not talking about the bike slipping from under me on a turn or whatever.

But anyway, like I said, it's not a deep distrust of carbon failing for no reason imploding under me. I'd just be worried about the state of the frame after a crash and not being able to know for sure if it's ok without getting it examined.

That and the false economy thing.

Well, most aluminium bikes are fitted with carbon forks these days, so if you hit a pothole like that, take it to a shop for a second opinion. If you're really worried, replace the fork. Any damage to the frame should be fairly apparent though.

You could go mad worrying about bike parts. Handlebars are one that get me! How often do people unwrap their tape to check if there is a crack in their bars? You are one set of traffic lights away from catastrophic failure and a nasty fall.

lennymc

@seaneh, i was at one stage 112kgs riding a carbon frame and never had any problems (well, i couldnt get up a hill, but thats another story). I was well able to go down hills and hit the occasional pothole, no problems with the bike. I crashed it in a race and the top tube cracked (i think either I landed on it, or someone rode into it), but i think a steel or aluminium bike would also have been damaged.

lennymc

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Handlebars are one that get me! How often do people unwrap their tape to check if there is a crack in their bars? You are one set of traffic lights away from catastrophic failure and a nasty fall.

do people really do that?

DirkVoodoo

lennymc wrote: »

do people really do that?

I doubt it, but that's my point I guess, you should always check your equipment, especially after a fall or crash.

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.ie/2008/10/easton-ec-90-slx-handlebar-failure.html

Seaneh

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Well, most aluminium bikes are fitted with carbon forks these days, so if you hit a pothole like that, take it to a shop for a second opinion. If you're really worried, replace the fork. Any damage to the frame should be fairly apparent though.

You could go mad worrying about bike parts. Handlebars are one that get me! How often do people unwrap their tape to check if there is a crack in their bars? You are one set of traffic lights away from catastrophic failure and a nasty fall.

Well that's what I was getting at really. And yeah, if I was in a crash and worried I'd defo be taking my current bike (alu frame, carbon fork) to a shop to let them have a look at the fork and I'd probably take the fork off to get a look at the steerer tube and make sure that's all ok as well (and the bars :P).
As I said steel and alu frames can just as easily take damage as a carbon but when they do, it's usually obvious!

Good point on the bars though, It's something I've not really thought of much, might replace my bar tape soon just to be sure :P

Seaneh

lennymc wrote: »

@seaneh, i was at one stage 112kgs riding a carbon frame and never had any problems (well, i couldnt get up a hill, but thats another story). I was well able to go down hills and hit the occasional pothole, no problems with the bike. I crashed it in a race and the top tube cracked (i think either I landed on it, or someone rode into it), but i think a steel or aluminium bike would also have been damaged.

Aye, the alu or steel would just as easily fail, but in the case of steel it's likely to bend first and if it does crack it's easily fixed with a blast of a welder (hyperbole, obviously!).

But anyway like I've said a few times, the biggest reason I wouldn't spend money on a carbon frame right now isn't worry about it getting damaged, I just think frame weight is the last thing I need to worry about, I'd rather lose 20kg of body weight than 1kg of frame weight right now, after that, if it's warranted, I'll worry about the frame and groupset weight and moved into weight weenie mode :P

I can get a very good quality steel frameset for €400ish, you're talking atleast another €200 before you move into carbon framset world.

chakattack

Seaneh wrote: »

I can get a very good quality steel frameset for €400ish

What models?

lennymc

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I doubt it, but that's my point I guess, you should always check your equipment, especially after a fall or crash.

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.ie/2008/10/easton-ec-90-slx-handlebar-failure.html

sorry - i misunderstood, i thought you meant people randomly took their tape off to examine their bars, not how many people chek their bars after crashing.

colm_gti

Any reviews of the FM066 SL frame knocking around yet actually?

Any idea of prices, and lead time from placing an order to having it at your door?

In the early stages of looking into upgrading my frame, have one in mind but if that doesn't work out I might be interested in going for the above of an FM039.

Don't care too much about weight, as long as it's at least as stiff as my current alu frame...

Seaneh

chakattack wrote: »

What models?

Kona Honky Tonk (€400 form Irish retailers), Ribble Reynolds 525 (€212 for the frame, €297 for frame, fork and headset pre-installed), Planet X Kaffenback (€165 for frame, €235 for frame fork and headset but it's currently only available in one size).

There are a few more options.

Beasty

Don't do cheap so got to be strong and light for me I guess ...

petethedrummer

Seaneh wrote: »

Kona Honky Tonk (€400 form Irish retailers)

Who quoted you that? I'm curious as I want to buy one.

Seaneh

petethedrummer wrote: »

Who quoted you that? I'm curious as I want to buy one.

MBW in moycullen, but he said that was the list RRP so any Kona dealer in Ireland should atleast match it! Shop around and you might shave a tenner off it!

AJTD

Seaneh wrote: »

But anyway like I've said a few times, the biggest reason I wouldn't spend money on a carbon frame right now isn't worry about it getting damaged, I just think frame weight is the last thing I need to worry about, I'd rather lose 20kg of body weight than 1kg of frame weight right now, after that, if it's warranted, I'll worry about the frame and groupset weight and moved into weight weenie mode :P

I can be a terrible 'all the gear no idea' person at times and I've spent more money than I'd admit (to my wife at least!) buying parts that are a few grams lighter (it all adds up ya know...apparently). This year I got a proper healthy eating plan created for me and so far I've lost 25lbs...Thats knocking on the door of 10lbs more that the total weight of my bike...And i can safely say its had a more dramatic effect than any strong, light or cheap component I've ever bought..

Harrybelafonte

colm_gti wrote: »

Any reviews of the FM066 SL frame knocking around yet actually?

Any idea of prices, and lead time from placing an order to having it at your door?

In the early stages of looking into upgrading my frame, have one in mind but if that doesn't work out I might be interested in going for the above of an FM039.

Don't care too much about weight, as long as it's at least as stiff as my current alu frame...

There's a good few over on VeloBuild.com Also this one on Weight Weenies:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=113717&start=285

I'm thinking of grabbing one for next year.

Seaneh

AJTD wrote: »

I can be a terrible 'all the gear no idea' person at times and I've spent more money than I'd admit (to my wife at least!) buying parts that are a few grams lighter (it all adds up ya know...apparently). This year I got a proper healthy eating plan created for me and so far I've lost 25lbs...Thats knocking on the door of 10lbs more that the total weight of my bike...And i can safely say its had a more dramatic effect than any strong, light or cheap component I've ever bought..

Ah im no better, I've ben torturing myself with the idea of building a bike between now and next spring with a Ribble Stealth frameset and picking up bits as I go with the aim of building a sub 7.5kg bike but recently I realised it's fecking pointless with me in the shape I am, so Im going to focus on getting miles into my legs and weight off my gut, join a club and go on group spins and use this summer and winter a "pre-season" and then maybe give an A4 race or two a lash next year if I think I can keep up with them!

And if I do race A4 next year, it will be on the steel frame I'm hoping to build. I'm even considering building the wheels myself becuase I think it's beneficial to know how to do it in the long run and I can make sure it's up the the challenge of hauling my fat arse around the midlands and west :P.

colm_gti

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

There's a good few over on VeloBuild.com Also this one on Weight Weenies:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=113717&start=285

I'm thinking of grabbing one for next year.

30 day wait time....that would be the death of me :P

Harrybelafonte

colm_gti wrote: »

30 day wait time....that would be the death of me :P

Same. I start freaking out when my PBK stuff takes five days to get here.

cunavalos

colm_gti wrote: »

Any reviews of the FM066 SL frame knocking around yet actually?

Any idea of prices, and lead time from placing an order to having it at your door?

In the early stages of looking into upgrading my frame, have one in mind but if that doesn't work out I might be interested in going for the above of an FM039.

Don't care too much about weight, as long as it's at least as stiff as my current alu frame...

Alternative option is to buy through velobuild.com, which is a forum that offers group buy schemes but the product is shipped direct to your door.

The fm-066 sl is advertised at $580 plus $85 delivery
http://velobuild.com/velobuild-shopping-mall/catalog/show/132
there are other options available and you can spec bb type , colour etc.

Prices through this particular website are a little bit steeper than if you went through the manufacturer directly and the site owners appear to have a good connections with the manufacturers if something goes wrong.
if you have time you can trawl through the forum and see different builds and see what problems have occurred during the ordering process for others.

Full Disclosure: I have not personally purchased via this website so it is not a recommendation just giving an alternative way of purchasing a carbon frame from china/taiwan