problems with immersion

dillons

Appreciate any help on this.
Had an APT timer clock for immersion above on/off bath/sink switch.
APT went and got electrician out to replace it with digital timer clock. 3 time clocks and 2 new switches later... now have a Sangamo 24/7 switch and hot water not heating up properly. It's not hot enough to have a shower. Have tried in both bath & sink position in case they are reversed but neither works.

Have had electrician out good few times over last 2 weeks and wondering now what else it could be?! thermostat was replaced 2 years ago... could it be gone again? is it likely that it went at same time as APT timer clock or could both going together have been related??
Electrician fitted wrong digital timer (Horstmann 3amp) and this burnt out so could that have caused damage?!

Uploading pictures of wiring on switch and wiring on timer including wiring diagram on sangamo leaflet, does it matter that green/yellow are not connected to 2 earth terminals on back of sangamo?


Thanks in advance for any help... getting very frustrated with what we think should have been a simple job!

Robbie.G

dillons wrote: »

Appreciate any help on this.
Had an APT timer clock for immersion above on/off bath/sink switch.
APT went and got electrician out to replace it with digital timer clock. 3 time clocks and 2 new switches later... now have a Sangamo 24/7 switch and hot water not heating up properly. It's not hot enough to have a shower. Have tried in both bath & sink position in case they are reversed but neither works.

Have had electrician out good few times over last 2 weeks and wondering now what else it could be?! thermostat was replaced 2 years ago... could it be gone again? is it likely that it went at same time as APT timer clock or could both going together have been related??
Electrician fitted wrong digital timer (Horstmann 3amp) and this burnt out so could that have caused damage?!

Uploading pictures of wiring on switch and wiring on timer including wiring diagram on sangamo leaflet, does it matter that green/yellow are not connected to 2 earth terminals on back of sangamo?


Thanks in advance for any help... getting very frustrated with what we think should have been a simple job!

Ideally the switch should be earthed you could just take a loop of earth wire from the connector to the switch.Thermostat looks as if its fecked so go with replacing that

dillons

Thanks for reply. Did you mean sangamo timer should be earthed?
is fitting thermostat a big job, does it require electrician out... again?!

Robbie.G

dillons wrote: »

Thanks for reply. Did you mean sangamo timer should be earthed?
is fitting thermostat a big job, does it require electrician out... again?!

If there is a earth terminal on the timer or metal parts it should be earthed.
The stat is a minor job to replace but if your not confident with electrics get someone in

dillons

Robbie.G wrote: »

If there is a earth terminal on the timer or metal parts it should be earthed.
The stat is a minor job to replace but if your not confident with electrics get someone in

thanks again.
re earthing the timer. Is it just a matter of taking out the plastic connector between yellow/green cable in the picture and fitting cables to the earth points on the timer?

Robbie.G

dillons wrote: »

thanks again.
re earthing the timer. Is it just a matter of taking out the plastic connector between yellow/green cable in the picture and fitting cables to the earth points on the timer?

Yes that's it.Its not a major problem it's just if there are metal components in the timer and not earthed it could become live if there was a electrical fault

meercat

Any chance of removing the cover off the immersion and posting a pic of the wiring/connections

Make sure to turn power off first

dillons

meercat wrote: »

Any chance of removing the cover off the immersion and posting a pic of the wiring/connections

Make sure to turn power off first

here's a photo with the cover off immersion. Thanks

nmacc

Nice photo; clear and well-lit.

See that sticker that says 'Do not break seal'? Guess what you have to do? Make sure the power is OFF first!

Those numbers around the outside represent the water temperature in degrees C. Normally set to 60 as it says. You can try turning it up, but I wouldn't go beyond 75.

You don't actually want to have your hot water at 75, as that'd scald the hands off you, but adjusting the stat up might help.

However, if it's currently set to 60 and the water isn't reaching 60, that's an indication that the stat isn't long for this world.

As Robbie said, it's not difficult to replace, but get it done professionally if you've any doubts.

meercat

pictures indicate that the wiring is correct

next option is to replace thermostat(turn power off,disconnect cables and slide stat out)

another option is to turn off the water inlet to the cylinder and allow the immersion to heat the tank(this will indicate whether seepage is preventing the cylinder from heating fully or not)

its also possible that the immersion element is bent too close to thermostat housing thus preventing accurate temperature control(your immersion looks old /no overheat switch on it/so this may have happened over time)

i would replace the thermostat first though

dillons

Thanks for the replies.

I took the thermostat out to bring it with me tomorrow and replace with the same size but.... am kinda surprised to see it's only approx 18CM!
This seems very short & I'm now wondering if it explains why we never really get a decent bath! Is it possible that the water in the tank is never heating all the way to the bottom with a short thermostat?

I put a clothes hanger wire down the thermostat hole and the available space is only approx 23cm

Again, thought this was very short.

Does this sound OK on a 3ft tank or would it suggest that the element itself it too short for the job?

Meercat you mention that the immersion looks old, house is only 7 years old so I would have expected a modern immersion?

Given the above should I now consider getting the immersion element replaced with a better (bigger) one?

If yes, is this a job for a sparks or a plumber??

Out of interest is the 18cm thermostat the right length for the 23cm slot or is there a longer thermostat I should get if it's just a matter of replacing that?
The thermostat was replaced by sparks 2 years ago just after we moved in so I cant compare what the baths were like before that

Thanks for all the replies

dodzy

dillons wrote: »

Thanks for the replies.

I took the thermostat out to bring it with me tomorrow and replace with the same size but.... am kinda surprised to see it's only approx 18CM!
This seems very short & I'm now wondering if it explains why we never really get a decent bath! Is it possible that the water in the tank is never heating all the way to the bottom with a short thermostat?

I put a clothes hanger wire down the thermostat hole and the available space is only approx 23cm

Again, thought this was very short.

Does this sound OK on a 3ft tank or would it suggest that the element itself it too short for the job?

Meercat you mention that the immersion looks old, house is only 7 years old so I would have expected a modern immersion?

Given the above should I now consider getting the immersion element replaced with a better (bigger) one?

If yes, is this a job for a sparks or a plumber??

Out of interest is the 18cm thermostat the right length for the 23cm slot or is there a longer thermostat I should get if it's just a matter of replacing that?
The thermostat was replaced by sparks 2 years ago just after we moved in so I cant compare what the baths were like before that

Thanks for all the replies

First up, to she'd light on your query, see posts 5 & 6 here.....I asked a similar question not too long ago.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77980914

Next, if you are handy, and you have a multimeter, the first thing I would do is check the resistance of the elements. Seems to me that you have done everything except change this, and they do go faulty over time. They're only about 30€ and that includes a new stat. Again, if you're handy, it's not rocket science to switch out.

dillons

dodzy wrote: »

First up, to she'd light on your query, see posts 5 & 6 here.....I asked a similar question not too long ago.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77980914

Next, if you are handy, and you have a multimeter, the first thing I would do is check the resistance of the elements. Seems to me that you have done everything except change this, and they do go faulty over time. They're only about 30€ and that includes a new stat. Again, if you're handy, it's not rocket science to switch out.

Thanks for that, I read the posts but to be honest I'm none the wiser!
I think I'll just try getting a longer thermostat & try that. If that doesn't work then I'll call in a professional to change the element, I've read through a lot of posts and while it's not rocket science there does sound like there are a lot of things that can go wrong so I'd rather leave that to the pros if needs be.
Thinking a plumber?

dodzy

dillons wrote: »

Thanks for that, I read the posts but to be honest I'm none the wiser!
I think I'll just try getting a longer thermostat & try that. If that doesn't work then I'll call in a professional to change the element, I've read through a lot of posts and while it's not rocket science there does sound like there are a lot of things that can go wrong so I'd rather leave that to the pros if needs be.
Thinking a plumber?

Totally agree. If any aspect of electrical / plumbing worries you, then pay for the job. And yes, its a plumber you want. By all means, if you feel the stat is potentially an issue, it'll cost less than a tenner to confirm (or prove wrong) your suspicions. Eitherway, if the element needs to be replaced, you should be getting out for €100 give or take a few quid. ( I just purchased a 24" dual element in a local suppliers for €32 ).

I'd wager your problem lies here.

dillons

I just bought both a 7 and an 11" thermostats.
It was a 7" that came out of it but I'm hoping that the 11" will fit in, if not then that suggests to me (& electrical wholesaler guy agreed) that the element isn't the right size for the tank.

If the 11" fits in, I'll see how that works out & if it improves the level of bath hot water.

If not then I think it's time to get a new element.

Someone pointed out from my photo that it looks like an old element as there's no reset switch. House is only 7 years old so I suspect someone changed the element at some stage (we're only living there 2 years) & put in an old/too small one.

My (hopefully) last question is this, if I have to change the element, how do I know what size to get? I'd like the biggest possible for the tank, is it as simple as that or is it a case of taking out old and seeing what size the 'housing' is? or is that irrelevant to the element?
I'd like to have purchased the element in advance & get a plumber out to fit, that way I'd know what's going in & hopefully get this resolved and be able to enjoy a decent bath!

Thanks

dodzy

dillons wrote: »

how do I know what size to get? I'd like the biggest possible for the tank? Thanks

Measuring tape. from top of tank to bottom. Walk in to a plumbing suppliers and tell him the height of your tank. Simples.

dillons

Great. I was hoping that would be the answer.
So, based on that I really think if the element only takes a 7" thermostat then it's a bigger element that's needed.

I'll be so happy when this is finally sorted. I can picture my full bath & glass of wine already!

dodzy

dillons wrote: »

Great. I was hoping that would be the answer.
So, based on that I really think if the element only takes a 7" thermostat then it's a bigger element that's needed.

I'll be so happy when this is finally sorted. I can picture my full bath & glass of wine already!

Lets say that a 27" element is correct for your tank, a 24" will still work ( and give HOT water when required ), just not quite as much, but you would have HOT water. Your problem is that your only getting lukewarm water at best, and having changed practically everything else, I think that it is likely at this stage to be a faulty element. Best of luck !

dillons

Thanks again dodzy and I agree with everything you've said.
I should probably have explained better. I think my problem is 2-fold. At the moment the water is not heating up properly, the APT timeclock died 3 weeks ago. I have since read that thermostat going can sometimes take timeclock with it?! anyway we are now on 3rd new digital timeclock, finally 1 that is suitable for immersion and working fine. On 2nd new switch but still water not heating sufficiently Fed up getting electrician out so going to try replacing thermostat myself.
I am optomistic that this will solve the current issue but that will bring us back to where we've been since thermostat was replaced 2 years ago when we moved into house until problem started 3 weeks ago... issue was this....
immersion on APT timeclock for 2-3 hours in morning and evening and that was fine for nice hot shower with no rush on you but.... could never get decent fill of bath from it! kids shallow bath no problem & certainly hot enough but to fill adults bath you'd run out of hot water before you'd have a decent bath, we were comparing this back to our previous house... same size tank & it just didn't make sense but we made do.

Actually the very odd time you'd get a good bath & I now think those times were when oil was heating water not immersion.

So now that I'm working on resolving the current issue I'd really like to get the bigger problem sorted too and after pulling out a 7" thermostat and after the comment re the element looking old, I'm suspicious about the suitability of the current element.

Still, I'll give the thermostat a go first, see if 11" fits and gives any improvement. If not or we're stuck with 7" and this brings us back to having good temp hot water, just not enough for a decent bath, then I'll bite the bullet & get a plumber out to replace the element with the biggest & baddest we can get for the size of the tank

Hopefully the end is in sight thanks to all the helpful replies & many other threads on here... where would be be without boards!

Robbie.G

dillons wrote: »

Thanks again dodzy and I agree with everything you've said.
I should probably have explained better. I think my problem is 2-fold. At the moment the water is not heating up properly, the APT timeclock died 3 weeks ago. I have since read that thermostat going can sometimes take timeclock with it?! anyway we are now on 3rd new digital timeclock, finally 1 that is suitable for immersion and working fine. On 2nd new switch but still water not heating sufficiently Fed up getting electrician out so going to try replacing thermostat myself.
I am optomistic that this will solve the current issue but that will bring us back to where we've been since thermostat was replaced 2 years ago when we moved into house until problem started 3 weeks ago... issue was this....
immersion on APT timeclock for 2-3 hours in morning and evening and that was fine for nice hot shower with no rush on you but.... could never get decent fill of bath from it! kids shallow bath no problem & certainly hot enough but to fill adults bath you'd run out of hot water before you'd have a decent bath, we were comparing this back to our previous house... same size tank & it just didn't make sense but we made do.

Actually the very odd time you'd get a good bath & I now think those times were when oil was heating water not immersion.

So now that I'm working on resolving the current issue I'd really like to get the bigger problem sorted too and after pulling out a 7" thermostat and after the comment re the element looking old, I'm suspicious about the suitability of the current element.

Still, I'll give the thermostat a go first, see if 11" fits and gives any improvement. If not or we're stuck with 7" and this brings us back to having good temp hot water, just not enough for a decent bath, then I'll bite the bullet & get a plumber out to replace the element with the biggest & baddest we can get for the size of the tank

Hopefully the end is in sight thanks to all the helpful replies & many other threads on here... where would be be without boards!

For a dual immersion it's a 11in stat it's a 7in for a willis.

bongomad

Have you a back boiler of some type feeding your tank as well ?