Advice on next step to improve

Lemlin

Hi folks,

Started running on Saturday January 12th with the couch to 5k. By the end of March, Dunboyne road race on Sunday 24th, I was fit to do 6.5k in 32 minutes pushing myself.

At that stage, I was running 4 days a week - Monday morning, Wednesday morning, Thursday evening with the club and Saturday morning. I'd then do some stretching exercises (push ups, squats, planking etc.) on Tuesdays and Fridays and take Sunday as a rest day.

I've now amended that to running three days a week - Tuesday morning, Thursday evening and Saturday morning. I was finding running 4 days a week a bit tiring on my legs and getting some pains (I have the correct runners by the way) so decided to cut down to three days to see if it would help. I now do three days of the strecthing and a bit of upper body weight lifting and then rest on Sundays.

The thing is I'm not finding the running particularly easier. I thought I'd be building up a bit of a grounding by now but I feel like I'm going backwards if anything. I'd like to try and move up to 10k and last week I managed 8.2k in my Thursday night session. That said, last night, I could only manage 7.5k and that was a struggle. The Thursday night session with the club is easier to run a further distance in so I generally run my furthest distance in it and run about 6k now in my Tuesday and Saturday morning sessions. I'm doing the 6k in about 30 to 32 minutes so my general pace is about 5.30 minutes per kilometre.

My question is what should be my next step to improve?
I see some of you referring to interval training, hill training (well I know what a hill is and I'd imagine you run up it but is there any special knack to it?) and a long slow run? I'm unsure what these mean. For example, for a long slow run, should my aim be to run 10k but to decrease my pace to 6.3 minutes or 7 minutes per kilometre.

I've dived into the running head first and am really enjoying it but I'm unsure of what my exact tactics should be for improving and would appreciate your help.

I also have a bike which I've been neglecting due to the running but my hope would be to get out on it this Sunday morning (instead of doing a stretching session) if it would even help with my stamina. I also have access to a cross trainer and treadmill in my home but don't tend to use them.

rom

Read a few of the more popular training logs and it should answer most of your questions in detail http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1139&daysprune=-1&order=desc&sort=views

menoscemo

Read this thread:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056920980
Most of the advice there is relevant here.

Gringo78

You training paces are too fast - your 6.5km race pace is just under 5min/km so your regular training runs of 6k in 30-32min are being done at somewhere around HM pace which is a tough tiring pace.

You should be able to handle 4 runs a week if thats what you were doing before - if the training run is aiming to go longer you should be running it at a pace of 6min/km. 1 run a week at the pace you currently are training at (5:00-5:20/km) will develop your running but all other running should really be done at close on 6min/km pace.

After a few weeks of the 4 days a week if your happy and not as tired, you can think about adding an interval session which might be something like run 800m at 4:45/km pace, 2min walk/jog, repeat 4-6 times.

The way you were training, everything in or or around Half marathon pace would have been quite tiring and in the long run counter productive.

Lemlin

Thanks for the advice lads. Had a look at FutureGuy's thread because I wouldn't be sure what training logs to look at. It looks like the problem is that I've been basically killing myself by aiming to run at least 5.30 minutes per km every time I go out. Doing this 3 or 4 times a week has definitely taken its toll.

I entered my details on the McMillan calculator. I do 5k in about 27 minutes and my goal time for 10k would be about 1 hour so my training pace should be 6.09 to about 6.40. I'm going to try and run tomorrow morning and stick around 6 to 6 and a half minutes. That seems very slow but it might stop the pains I've been getting in my knee and legs e.g. my left foot is killing me today after running the 7.5k last night.

Then my one HM pace run a week can be my run with the club on Thursday night.

Letyourselfgo

I agree with Gringo, you need to run slower.
I'd also give the advise of don't worry too much about pace. Just run your easy runs easy and your hard ones hard.
Running slow can take a while to get used to but it's well worth doing.
Last night I ran at 7'50 per mile and this morning I averaged 10'20 per mile. I had no idea of the pace at the time as I had the watch set to heart rate.
And definitely get back to 4 days a week.
All the best with it.

Lemlin

Thanks for the advice folks. Ran 7k this morning in 45 minutes, averaging 6.30 minutes per km and feel a lot better than normal after it.

moneymad

If you go out and do 3 or 4 1 hour runs at 60-75% of your max hr you will be far better off in the coming months.

john mayo 10

moneymad wrote: »

If you go out and do 3 or 4 1 hour runs at 60-75% of your max hr you will be far better off in the coming months.

I dont mean to hyjack this thread but im in a very similiar situation myself.Would just like to know that would running at ur racing pace in training not be more benificial to decreasing ur times than running ur training at a slower pace

TRR

john mayo 10 wrote: »

I dont mean to hyjack this thread but im in a very similiar situation myself.Would just like to know that would running at ur racing pace in training not be more benificial to decreasing ur times than running ur training at a slower pace

No it takes it toll and leads to injury, burnout and eventually really poor races. Think about it in football/rugby/gaa terms, matchday is always way harder than training. You may do hard things in training to simulate match effort but they never take as long to recover etc. if you go full out a couple of times a week it will have serious negative effects long term.

Lemlin

TRR wrote: »

No it takes it toll and leads to injury, burnout and eventually really poor races. Think about it in football/rugby/gaa terms, matchday is always way harder than training. You may do hard things in training to simulate match effort but they never take as long to recover etc. if you go full out a couple of times a week it will have serious negative effects long term.

I'd have to agree with this. Last week I was running 7k 3 times a week at a rate of 5 minutes 30 per km and I could feel the toll it was taking. Despite having the correct runners and gait analysis I would feel tired and often have sore feet or knees.

Yesterday I ran the 7k at a training pace of 6 minutes 30 and feel alot better today after it. I'm back to looking forward to running this week rather than waiting to see how I feel.

I also reckon I'll be able to go back to 4 days of running a week after cutting myself to 3.

john mayo 10

TRR wrote: »

No it takes it toll and leads to injury, burnout and eventually really poor races. Think about it in football/rugby/gaa terms, matchday is always way harder than training. You may do hard things in training to simulate match effort but they never take as long to recover etc. if you go full out a couple of times a week it will have serious negative effects long term.

When you put it like that it really does make sense. Thanks for the advice

FutureGuy

Lemlin wrote: »

Thanks for the advice folks. Ran 7k this morning in 45 minutes, averaging 6.30 minutes per km and feel a lot better than normal after it.

Good stuff man, yeah the advice to just slow the pace really helped me. At around the 8.5km mark yesterday until I hit 9.5km, I decided to pick up the pace and I found I was running 5:15-5:35/km without a problem.

I'm also taking my warmdowns very seriously after talking to a guy that has been douing 10K races for years.

1) Cooldown walk
2) Protein shake as soon as you can.
3) Warm shower finished by 3 mins freezing cold water on each leg (6 min total)
4) Dry legs with hot towel. Rub vigorously
5) Applu Blue Ease cream to legs.

My recovery is significantly faster.

rossit

great thread the advise is spot on really helpful thanks to all

gOst

Sorry to hijack the thread but I didn't think it warranted another. My current fitness regime is similar to the OP and that's why I'm posting it here.

Basically, I cannot recall ever being fit as a child as I had bad asthma but I've since grown out it. I'm 24 now and I've started running lately.

My routine is not too disciplined but I do 2 days of circuit training (sprints, squats, lunges, push ups) then try go for a run. I've been running the same route which is 5 km. Initially it took me longer but I've recently got it to a steady 26-28 min.

For me, some days I struggle to finish, getting stitches or pains between shoulder blades but then for no real apparent reason everything just clicks and I feel like a feckin gazelle! Today for example, I was hungover but I went for a run just to get a sweat on more than anything. I absolutely smashed the 5 km. I thought I'd be in a ball with a stitch what with the dehydration from the booze and the bacon sambos. I felt awesome afterwards, just loads of energy.

I can't figure it out, its happened a few times but I can't seem to control when it happens. I imagine this is how you proper runners feel most of the time and I'd like to get to a stage where I feel like this everytime I run.

Sorry for the long post but any insights into my ramblings?

Letyourselfgo

gOst wrote: »

My routine is not too disciplined but I do 2 days of circuit training (sprints, squats, lunges, push ups) then try go for a run. I've been running the same route which is 5 km. Initially it took me longer but I've recently got it to a steady 26-28 min.

Are you saying that you do the circuit training right before running?
and
Are you trying to run your fastest everytime on the 5k course?

gOst

Letyourselfgo wrote: »

Are you saying that you do the circuit training right before running?
and
Are you trying to run your fastest everytime on the 5k course?

Sorry, no I do circuits in Tuesdays and Thursdays and I try fit 5 km runs on Monday, Wednesday, Saturdays/Sundays.

I don't actively monitor my pace but I try to do it within 30 mins. I try to ease my way into the first km but then my natural pace takes over I don't think about I just try and breath in a steady controlled manner....if that makes any sense?

Letyourselfgo

Are you able to run more than twice a week as two days a week isn't great, maybe try aiming for at least 4.
Out of those 4 runs, try run slower on 2, try make 1 a little longer and on the 4th you could try doing sth a little quicker over your 5k course, sth like 100 strides (steps) fast, 100 strides slow and maybe every 2nd or 3rd week have a good crack at running your fastest 5k.
A lot of people think they can't run slower, but they can, there just not used to it.
After a while introduce a 5th day and that would bring you up to 2 sessions a week.
The main thing is consisteny.

Lemlin

FutureGuy wrote: »

Good stuff man, yeah the advice to just slow the pace really helped me. At around the 8.5km mark yesterday until I hit 9.5km, I decided to pick up the pace and I found I was running 5:15-5:35/km without a problem.

I'm also taking my warmdowns very seriously after talking to a guy that has been douing 10K races for years.

1) Cooldown walk
2) Protein shake as soon as you can.
3) Warm shower finished by 3 mins freezing cold water on each leg (6 min total)
4) Dry legs with hot towel. Rub vigorously
5) Applu Blue Ease cream to legs.

My recovery is significantly faster.

Thanks for the tips re the recovery. Must try it.

I managed 11.3k last Friday morning. My furthest distance by far. Did it at an average pace of 6.15 minutes per km which was decent as I was aiming for 6.30.

Left foot is a bit sore after it but am hoping it'll calm down by Tuesday when I plan to run again.

Lemlin

Said I'd update on my progress. I did another 5k run two weeks ago and managed it in 22.54. Finished 44th out of 400 people. Was delighted with that.

I'm now managing 11k and 12k runs at least once a week.

Looking at introducing an interval run. I see to run 800m at 4:45/km pace, 2min walk/jog, repeat 4-6 times is mentioned above. Any other suggestions people would have?

Tom Joad

Best suggestion Lemlin is to start a log here - will keep you honest and you will get really good advice.

Also plan your next race (when?, where? distance?) and find a programme that suits your schedule..

Best of luck with it - you are making really good progress already.

Are you doing CastleSaunderson 5k and are you training for that?

Lemlin

Tom Joad wrote: »

Best suggestion Lemlin is to start a log here - will keep you honest and you will get really good advice.

Also plan your next race (when?, where? distance?) and find a programme that suits your schedule..

Best of luck with it - you are making really good progress already.

Are you doing CastleSaunderson 5k and are you training for that?

I didn't get to Castle Saunderson 5k in the end. Too much on that weekend. There's a few races I'm looking at now and will see what ones I make:

1. 6k in Mullagh this weekend.
2. 10k Ras for Killygarry GAA in Cavan town June 9th
3. 10k for Mullagh sports centre June 16th

One question I just have now. I'm comfortably running 8k two days a week in about 48 minutes so I'm sticking to around the 6 min per km mark. I'm also doing 12k in about an hour ten with the club on Thursday nights so, again, I'm sticking to around the 6 minutes per km mark.

That said, I'm still finding quicker runs very tough. For example, I ran the Kells 5k race in 22.54 and was knackered after it. Felt at stages like I wasn't going to finish. I also went running one Saturday morning and tried running between 4.30 and 5 minutes per km and had to stop after about 3k.

What's the best way for increasing my speed? Interval training or what?

menoscemo

Lemlin wrote: »

That said, I'm still finding quicker runs very tough. For example, I ran the Kells 5k race in 22.54 and was knackered after it. Felt at stages like I wasn't going to finish. I also went running one Saturday morning and tried running between 4.30 and 5 minutes per km and had to stop after about 3k.

What's the best way for increasing my speed? Interval training or what?

That's how your supposed to feel in a 5k. Even the guys at the front running 15 minutes feel like that (probably even worse).

I wouldn't introduce any interval training just yet. You will still get plenty of gains just by increasing the frequency and distance of your running.

Tom Joad

That 10k Killygarry run is nuts hills wise - one of the toughest 10k I've said - would suggest the lakes 10k in Bailieboro as a better 10k to build the confidence - its the same day..

Lemlin

Tom Joad wrote: »

That 10k Killygarry run is nuts hills wise - one of the toughest 10k I've said - would suggest the lakes 10k in Bailieboro as a better 10k to build the confidence - its the same day..

Did the Mullagh to Relaghbeg run today. It was 7k. Did it in 34 minutes which I was delighted with.