Landlord raising rent

flytrap

Hi all,

Got a scenario for you and wanted to see what the solution would be.

In a property for over 4 years. According to this site the notice period I would need to give is 16 weeks. That's perfectly fine.

Now, if the landlord decided he wanted to increase the rent by say €100 per month and I disagreed with the increase, what happens with the notice period then?

If I said I didn't want to pay the extra as I felt it wasn't in line, could he ask me to move out within 28 days?

My thinking is that I would need to give him my 16 weeks notice and pay my current rent until I move out. Am I correct?

Thanks!

dissed doc

flytrap wrote: »

Hi all,

Got a scenario for you and wanted to see what the solution would be.

In a property for over 4 years. According to this site the notice period I would need to give is 16 weeks. That's perfectly fine.

Now, if the landlord decided he wanted to increase the rent by say €100 per month and I disagreed with the increase, what happens with the notice period then?

If I said I didn't want to pay the extra as I felt it wasn't in line, could he ask me to move out within 28 days?

My thinking is that I would need to give him my 16 weeks notice and pay my current rent until I move out. Am I correct?

Thanks!

It says if the tenant gives notice it is 8 weeks, not 16.

Also says that if you are in a fixed term lease you are also subject to whatever terms are in that and could lose your deposit if you break the lease early. ]If tenants have a fixed-term agreement or a lease, they are also subject to the terms of this agreement. This means they may lose their deposit if they leave before the term stated in the lease, even if they give the correct amount of notice.

The landlord has to give you 28 days notice of the increase in the rent and has the right to do it annually. If you dispute it you have to refer it to PTRB before the date that the new rent is due to begin. The increase has to be in line with the market. If it's in line with the market to be €100 higher than that is that TBH. AFAIK.

If you have a lease, the proposed rent increase doesn't matter I think. If you wish to break the lease, then there is a clear penalty. if you do not break the lease, you can only dispute the rent increase through PTRB and stay within the terms of the lease.

The landlord still has to give you 16 weeks notice if he wants you to move out, not 28 days. It is 28 days notice before the new higher rent is due; doesn't effect the notice-period for the tenancy I should think.

flytrap

Edit: landlord must give 16 weeks notice - tennant 8 weeks, you're correct.

But the original lease was for one year only. We have been using the same principles of the lease bar a reduction in year two on the rent.

So, we are technically outside of the original lease but I am assuming the same rules apply ongoing.

Thanks for the input

The notice period from the original lease is only valid for the fixed term. I know because I was caught out on this one, gave one months notice when I should have given 8 weeks and lost my deposit as a result.

flytrap

What if he decided to up the rent by €500? What if there were two properties in the area that WERE of similar stature (imagine they were new builds and come on the rental market) - wouldn't this increase then be justified as market rate?

So, a) he could implement a new increase of €500 pm after 28 days notice, and b) leave me paying an extra €1000 over the 8 weeks notice period. I find that a bit hard to stomach and unfair, if it's the case. I'm locked in for 8 weeks at his new higher price and there's nothing I could do about it.

dissed doc

flytrap wrote: »

What if he decided to up the rent by €500? What if there were two properties in the area that WERE of similar stature (imagine they were new builds and come on the rental market) - wouldn't this increase then be justified as market rate?

So, a) he could implement a new increase of €500 pm after 28 days notice, and b) leave me paying an extra €1000 over the 8 weeks notice period. I find that a bit hard to stomach and unfair, if it's the case. I'm locked in for 8 weeks at his new higher price and there's nothing I could do about it.

Yeah what doesn't seem clear is what happens if you lodge a PTRB dispute before the date of that the higher rent starts on. Do you have to pay the new market rate and then wait for the dispute to be resolved or does lodging a dispute "block" the rent increase until it's allowed (or not) by the PTRB.

They don't specifically say that a dispute stops anything until it's actually resolved. If he is doing what seems is a market rate, it's within the terms of the lease and law and if you don't like it (and don't want to break the lease) you have to PTRB it before the new rent begins but pay it until the resolution (as that would be compliant with the lease).

fasttalkerchat

I assumed that the landlord is offering a new contract at a higher rental rate. If you refuse if you stay on part 4. Not sure how this could happen for someone within fixed contract, I imagine it would apply at the expiration of the fixed lease.

A Primal Nut

Surely if you sign a lease then the rent can't change until a new lease is signed? The lease is a contact to rent at a certain rate, no? Even with the PRTB, its silly if a landlord can raise the rent halfway through a lease.

accensi0n

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Surely if you sign a lease then the rent can't change until a new lease is signed? The lease is a contact to rent at a certain rate, no? Even with the PRTB, its silly if a landlord can raise the rent halfway through a lease.

The OP doesn't have a lease.

Mrs OBumble

flytrap wrote: »

So, a) he could implement a new increase of €500 pm after 28 days notice, and b) leave me paying an extra €1000 over the 8 weeks notice period. I find that a bit hard to stomach and unfair, if it's the case. I'm locked in for 8 weeks at his new higher price and there's nothing I could do about it.

Yeah, pretty much that's the way I understand it.

It's not fair, but it's the law. Want it changed ... talk to your TD.

fasttalkerchat

accensi0n wrote: »

The OP doesn't have a lease.

Agreed, he's part 4. And if he refuses to sign a new lease with a higher rental rate and the LL decided to terminate the part 4 agreement, surely it is up to the landlord to give the appropriate notice before he has to vacate?

flytrap

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Agreed, he's part 4. And if he refuses to sign a new lease with a higher rental rate and the LL decided to terminate the part 4 agreement, surely it is up to the landlord to give the appropriate notice before he has to vacate?

This is now my understanding, if we were to take logic and reason into account. I'll double check with threshold this morning to confirm this.

Ultimately, I'm not willing to pay an increase in rent and if he insists on an increase then we are at a stalemate. Landlord giving us the 16 weeks notice is then a requirement. Whether we have to pay that at the new rent is another question for threshold.

Ray Palmer

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Yeah, pretty much that's the way I understand it.

It's not fair, but it's the law. Want it changed ... talk to your TD.

Actually it is pretty fair. If the market rate in the area is much higher than you are paying. By bringing it in line with the actual market you are being treated fairly. Why should the LL earn less money of his property after 4 years of cheap rent?

The reality is rent doesn't go up that much normally and the law pretty much prevents it doing that. The example is not very realistic and won't really happen. €100 is within the realms of possibility.

Before people say well he'll have the place empty for a month so it isn't worth it. The longest I have had a place empty in 15 years is 3 days.

djimi

If you wish to dispute the rent increase then you must raise a case with the PRTB. While waiting to be heard you can continue to pay the current rent, however if they find in favour of the landlord you will be liable to pay the difference from the time that the dispute was raised.

I think you need to have a chat with Threshold about this. The landlord is entitled to a rent review once every 12 months, and as a tenant your choices are to either accept the revised rent, dispute it with the PRTB or terminate the tenancy. If you choose to terminate the tenancy then I dont know whether or not you are obliged to pay the revised rate; I suspect you probably are not, but they should be able to clarify.

djimi

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Actually it is pretty fair. If the market rate in the area is much higher than you are paying. By bringing it in line with the actual market you are being treated fairly. Why should the LL earn less money of his property after 4 years of cheap rent?

The reality is rent doesn't go up that much normally and the law pretty much prevents it doing that. The example is not very realistic and won't really happen. €100 is within the realms of possibility.

Before people say well he'll have the place empty for a month so it isn't worth it. The longest I have had a place empty in 15 years is 3 days.

If the market rate is higher, then its fair. There is no guarantee that it is though; and depending on the area there is a good chance that its not. 4 years ago my place would have most likely rented for €1000 a month. Anyone looking for €1100 a month for it now would be laughed out of town. The OP needs to do their homework and see just how fair the proposed increase is. I agree that an increase of €100 after 4 years may not be unfair, but it all depends on how much the rent was initially, and how much the place is worth now.

flytrap

djimi wrote: »

If the market rate is higher, then its fair. There is no guarantee that it is though; and depending on the area there is a good chance that its not. 4 years ago my place would have most likely rented for €1000 a month. Anyone looking for €1100 a month for it now would be laughed out of town. The OP needs to do their homework and see just how fair the proposed increase is. I agree that an increase of €100 after 4 years may not be unfair, but it all depends on how much the rent was initially, and how much the place is worth now.

Agreed, however what's to say that an upward increase is fair when one could argue a downward increase is just as fair.

I could also argue that whilst rent may be advertised as €1500, are they actually getting that? I know I pay several hundred euro less than what was advertised for initially.

Ray Palmer

djimi wrote: »

If the market rate is higher, then its fair. There is no guarantee that it is though; and depending on the area there is a good chance that its not. 4 years ago my place would have most likely rented for €1000 a month. Anyone looking for €1100 a month for it now would be laughed out of town. The OP needs to do their homework and see just how fair the proposed increase is. I agree that an increase of €100 after 4 years may not be unfair, but it all depends on how much the rent was initially, and how much the place is worth now.

Well this is where is gets a bit tricky and becomes subjective very quickly. How do you know the other LL is paying tax and registering tenants. You may find a place cheaper but are they fully compliant? You can't exactly say rent should be cheaper based on black market rates. I could rent my places out €100s cheaper if I didn't pay tax.

It really is a bit of a mess and the legislation is not very helpful.

flytrap

Just off the phone to threshold. Very informative.

In a nutshell if we don't agree tothe new increase then the landlord needs to issue us 16 weeks notice to vacate. We don't need to pay his new increase either as that is why he is giving us the notice.

Sounds reasonable.

Thank you all for the replies.

djimi

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Well this is where is gets a bit tricky and becomes subjective very quickly. How do you know the other LL is paying tax and registering tenants. You may find a place cheaper but are they fully compliant? You can't exactly say rent should be cheaper based on black market rates. I could rent my places out €100s cheaper if I didn't pay tax.

It really is a bit of a mess and the legislation is not very helpful.

Likewise you could rent your place for €100s cheaper if you werent paying a mortgage on it. Just because somewhere is cheap doesnt mean there is anything fishy going on.

Anyway, as defined here http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/rent_increases.html market rental rates are the rental price that a willing tenant would pay a willing landlord for a property. If your place is a couple of hundred quid more expensive than other similar properties then it is unlikely you are going to get any interest in it. Are the PRTB likely to go around and investigate every other similar property in the area to see if they can calculate where the landlord is getting their rental price from, or would they just turn around and tell you that you are looking for too much of an increase for your property? My money is on the latter tbh.

djimi

flytrap wrote: »

Just off the phone to threshold. Very informative.

In a nutshell if we don't agree tothe new increase then the landlord needs to issue us 16 weeks notice to vacate. We don't need to pay his new increase either as that is why he is giving us the notice.

Sounds reasonable.

Thank you all for the replies.

Good to know. Did they say what would happen if you were to raise a dispute with the PRTB about the increase? I presume in this case the landlord is not entitled to issue a notice to vacate?

flytrap

djimi wrote: »

Good to know. Did they say what would happen if you were to raise a dispute with the PRTB about the increase? I presume in this case the landlord is not entitled to issue a notice to vacate?

The rent would be frozen at the current rate until they decide the outcome.

I didnt ask about the landlord giving notice then, but I'd imagine if it takes 28 days for the PRTB to decide then he would have to issue us our notice based on the answer. So, if the PRTB said no increase, we stay. If they say increae allowed and we disagree then he issues notice - I would however assume (based on the conversation with Threshold) that I would continue to pay the current rate as I don't agree with the increase hence the notice.

D3PO

So many wrong comments in this thread especially from Threshold who quite frankly don't have a clue what they are taking about half the time which is shocking given their position in the Irish rental market.

OP the landlord does not have to issue you notice if you don't agree to the rent increase. The landlord can take a case against you to the PRTB. In the meantime you will continue paying your current rental rate. If the PRTB find in his favour you will owe him the difference for that period of time

(And the PRTB will not take your case in 28 days or anything close to it as you insinuated in your last post)

Your options are therefore

a) Renegotiate the increase with the landlord

b) Raise a dispute with the PRTB regarding the rate increase and be bound by their decision if they find against you.

c) Hand in the appropriate notice as per your part 4 tenure, (I'm not sure but would suggest that continuing to pay the current rent during that notice period would be sufficient)

Just refusing to pay it and expecting the landlord to then provide you with notice to vacate is wrong advice.

djimi

D3PO wrote: »

Just refusing to pay it and expecting the landlord to then provide you with notice to vacate is wrong advice.

This was my feeling also tbh. The way I saw it a tenant can either dispute the raise, or refuse to accept it meaning they are obliged to give notice to vacate. Im a bit surpised that Threshold seem to think that its the landlords responsibility to issue a notice to vacate if a rent review is refused. To be honest, under the terms of the part 4 tenancy, I didnt even think they could use this as a way to legally issue a notice of termination.

D3PO

djimi wrote: »

This was my feeling also tbh. The way I saw it a tenant can either dispute the raise, or refuse to accept it meaning they are obliged to give notice to vacate. Im a bit surpised that Threshold seem to think that its the landlords responsibility to issue a notice to vacate if a rent review is refused. To be honest, under the terms of the part 4 tenancy, I didnt even think they could use this as a way to legally issue a notice of termination.

correct they cannot. It is not a legal reason to issue notice to vacate under part 4. Threshold really haven't a clue and have provided the OP with awful "advice" here.

Ray Palmer

djimi wrote: »

Likewise you could rent your place for €100s cheaper if you werent paying a mortgage on it. Just because somewhere is cheap doesnt mean there is anything fishy going on.

Anyway, as defined here http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/rent_increases.html market rental rates are the rental price that a willing tenant would pay a willing landlord for a property. If your place is a couple of hundred quid more expensive than other similar properties then it is unlikely you are going to get any interest in it. Are the PRTB likely to go around and investigate every other similar property in the area to see if they can calculate where the landlord is getting their rental price from, or would they just turn around and tell you that you are looking for too much of an increase for your property? My money is on the latter tbh.

I agree it is next to impossible gauge the market rate. I don't have mortgages on the property I rent but there are LL close by in the same situation who don't pay their taxes. I am positive on this. It doesn't really effect me but they have lowered rent on occasions. They could in theory lower the rent in the area.

The Tenant has to prove the rent is outside the market rates as the LL has to show it is.

If the PRTB are not doing any analysis it just shows how unjust the system is.

djimi

I dont think its impossible to guage market rate; its just not an exact science. In the case of somewhere like where I am renting, had I been paying €1000 for the past 4 years (which is quite possible for anyone renting that long) and the landlord wanted to up the rent by €100 it wouldnt be difficult at all for me to prove that such an increase was unjust.

It is a system though that could use a revamp. As with a lot of things in the RTA (and other aspects of Irish law for that matter) its left far too ambiguous. Trying to use a loose definition of something like market rental rate is not really helping anyone.

Lyn256

Shouldn't it be reasonably easy for the PTRB to establish the market rent for an area . . . when a landlord registers a tenancy don't they have to include the rental amount?

If so, then they just need to work it out from their own data.

Ray Palmer

djimi wrote: »

I dont think its impossible to guage market rate; its just not an exact science. In the case of somewhere like where I am renting, had I been paying €1000 for the past 4 years (which is quite possible for anyone renting that long) and the landlord wanted to up the rent by €100 it wouldnt be difficult at all for me to prove that such an increase was unjust.

It is a system though that could use a revamp. As with a lot of things in the RTA (and other aspects of Irish law for that matter) its left far too ambiguous. Trying to use a loose definition of something like market rental rate is not really helping anyone.

You see I don't think you could argue a 10% increase is outside the realms of market rates. If you point to others at €900-€1000 then €1100 is within the market rate. If there are a few charging 1050 then you really don't have a leg to stand on.

In Dublin with increasing rents it can be easily justified to go up 10% without any valid objection. You can go through the process but you would be lucky to get that in your favour.

odds_on

djimi wrote: »

Likewise you could rent your place for €100s cheaper if you werent paying a mortgage on it. Just because somewhere is cheap doesnt mean there is anything fishy going on.

Anyway, as defined here http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/rent_increases.html market rental rates are the rental price that a willing tenant would pay a willing landlord for a property. If your place is a couple of hundred quid more expensive than other similar properties then it is unlikely you are going to get any interest in it. Are the PRTB likely to go around and investigate every other similar property in the area to see if they can calculate where the landlord is getting their rental price from, or would they just turn around and tell you that you are looking for too much of an increase for your property? My money is on the latter tbh.

No, the landlord submits his case for an increased rent, as regards other similar properties in the area and any other facts he can think of. Likewise, he tenant submits his case as regards other properties in the area and any other facts he can think of. The PRTB make a decision based on the submissions of the two parties. Discounted are the landlords costs and the tenants ability to pay.

Ray Palmer

Lyn256 wrote: »

Shouldn't it be reasonably easy for the PTRB to establish the market rent for an area . . . when a landlord registers a tenancy don't they have to include the rental amount?

If so, then they just need to work it out from their own data.

Not really. A 2 bed flat in a house versus a 2 bed apartment with different sq footage in new or old building done up to a different standard aren't easily comparable on paper.

djimi

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You see I don't think you could argue a 10% increase is outside the realms of market rates. If you point to others at €900-€1000 then €1100 is within the market rate. If there are a few charging 1050 then you really don't have a leg to stand on.

In Dublin with increasing rents it can be easily justified to go up 10% without any valid objection. You can go through the process but you would be lucky to get that in your favour.

If landlords are getting 900-1000 then an increase to 1100 is probably not going to be disputable. However, if other properties are renting for 750-850 then an a 10% increase from 1000 to 1100 is very much out of line, as there is virtually no chance of a new tenant paying 1100 for a property if they can get the same one for 750-850.

The bottom line seems to be whether or not the landlord would get the increased amount if they were to advertise the property to new tenants. In markets like Dublin where rents are in high demand a landlord could argue much bigger rent increases. In other areas of the country, they might be very lucky to get the current rent again, let alone an increased amount.

flytrap

D3PO wrote: »

So many wrong comments in this thread especially from Threshold who quite frankly don't have a clue what they are taking about half the time which is shocking given their position in the Irish rental market.

OP the landlord does not have to issue you notice if you don't agree to the rent increase. The landlord can take a case against you to the PRTB. In the meantime you will continue paying your current rental rate. If the PRTB find in his favour you will owe him the difference for that period of time

(And the PRTB will not take your case in 28 days or anything close to it as you insinuated in your last post)

Your options are therefore

a) Renegotiate the increase with the landlord

b) Raise a dispute with the PRTB regarding the rate increase and be bound by their decision if they find against you.

c) Hand in the appropriate notice as per your part 4 tenure, (I'm not sure but would suggest that continuing to pay the current rent during that notice period would be sufficient)

Just refusing to pay it and expecting the landlord to then provide you with notice to vacate is wrong advice.

Thanks for that.

So, let's take this scenario:

Landlord increases rent say by 150€ and it's over market rate.
We say we can't afford the increase.
He asks for the increase and PRTB says he is justified in asking for it.

BUT...
We can't afford the increase.

What happens?

If we don't give our notice then surely it's back on him to give us notice to vacate GIVEN that we haven't agreed to the new increase, and hence the 16 weeks notice?

You say he can take a case against me for the increased rent, but I don't agree to it. So, is it a way to force me to give my notice rather than him issue us notice?

I could see his notice saying something along the lines of "Notice due to new increase in rent which you are not able to pay" which is absolutely fine, but he would have then issued us the notice, not us giving the notice.

So, I'm curious to know who is liable to issue the notice, IF we cannot afford the new increased rent?

One could argue "Move out if you cant afford it". Sure, but I could argue "Give me my notice to move out then"... or you could argue "You give notice" etc...

I'm curious to how this would pan out.

djimi

I *think* you not agreeing to a rent increase means that you are effectively giving your termination notice. Im not sure the exact sequence of events, but basically if a landlord is proposing a justifiable rent increase your two options are either accept it or leave.

odds_on

flytrap wrote: »

Thanks for that.

So, let's take this scenario:

Landlord increases rent say by 150€ and it's over market rate.
We say we can't afford the increase.
He asks for the increase and PRTB says he is justified in asking for it.

BUT...
We can't afford the increase.

What happens?

If we don't give our notice then surely it's back on him to give us notice to vacate GIVEN that we haven't agreed to the new increase, and hence the 16 weeks notice?

You say he can take a case against me for the increased rent, but I don't agree to it. So, is it a way to force me to give my notice rather than him issue us notice?

I could see his notice saying something along the lines of "Notice due to new increase in rent which you are not able to pay" which is absolutely fine, but he would have then issued us the notice, not us giving the notice.

So, I'm curious to know who is liable to issue the notice, IF we cannot afford the new increased rent?

One could argue "Move out if you cant afford it". Sure, but I could argue "Give me my notice to move out then"... or you could argue "You give notice" etc...

I'm curious to how this would pan out.

A landlord is restricted by law as to when and why he may serve a valid notice of termination. A tenant may serve a NoT any time, during a Part 4 tenancy and does not have to state a reason.

As regards the notice period, no agreement to a shorter notice period than that set out in the RTA 2004, may be in any contract. However, immediately prior to or after a NoT, an mutual agreement may be made between landlord and tenant - if it is in both their interests that the tenant can vacate in a shorter period that can be done.

A tenant not wanting to pay an increase in rent (and therefore wishing to vacate) could serve his NoT of, say 56 days (i.e. the maximum notice period for a tenant) and a landlord wishing to have the increased rent as soon as possible, can mutually agree to what ever period suits them.

D3PO

flytrap wrote: »

Thanks for that.

So, let's take this scenario:

Landlord increases rent say by 150€ and it's over market rate.
We say we can't afford the increase.
He asks for the increase and PRTB says he is justified in asking for it.

If the PRTB agree with him then its not over the market rate.

BUT...
We can't afford the increase.

What happens?

If we don't give our notice then surely it's back on him to give us notice to vacate GIVEN that we haven't agreed to the new increase, and hence the 16 weeks notice?

He cannot give you notice to vacate under part 4 due to a dispute over a rental increase. The RTA 2004 sets out very specific paramaters whereby he can give you notice. This is not one of them.

If you don't pay the increase, then he can start eviction proceedings beginning with providing you notice to pay your arrears within 14 days. If you fail to pay he can then go to the next stage of eviction proceedings.

Once evicted that doesn't discharge you from any outstanding rent however, so he could chase you legally for it. Its unlikely but legally he could.

You say he can take a case against me for the increased rent, but I don't agree to it. So, is it a way to force me to give my notice rather than him issue us notice?

No its not a way to get you to give notice. He's a businessman he runs a business. If your not happy with the rent then move out that's your prerogative he's not running a charity.

I could see his notice saying something along the lines of "Notice due to new increase in rent which you are not able to pay" which is absolutely fine, but he would have then issued us the notice, not us giving the notice.

Like I said earlier he cannot legally give you notice for this reason.

So, I'm curious to know who is liable to issue the notice, IF we cannot afford the new increased rent?

You are.

One could argue "Move out if you cant afford it". Sure, but I could argue "Give me my notice to move out then"... or you could argue "You give notice" etc...

I'm curious to how this would pan out.

Ive explained this above. He cannot legally issue you notice for this. If you cant afford it you need to give notice.

answers above

Kosseegan

flytrap wrote: »

Thanks for that.

So, let's take this scenario:

Landlord increases rent say by 150€ and it's over market rate.
We say we can't afford the increase.
He asks for the increase and PRTB says he is justified in asking for it.

BUT...
We can't afford the increase.

What happens?

If you don't pay the new higher rent, the PRTB having upheld the landlord, the landlord will serve you a notice of breach of condition and notice of rent arrears. Failure to pay the arrears means he can issue a notice of termination. In that scenario only 28 days need be given in the notice of termination.

JoeCole26

Hi,

In a similar situation, kinda. Been in a 2 bedroom apartment in Sandyford for 11 months now and our lease is up Jan 31st. Just got a letter in the post (5 days before Xmas) that the rent will be increasing from €1,200 to €1,350 pm. B@stards, was just getting settled aswell.

Im guessing this is the going rate? so not much i can do. Im pretty certain the whole apartment block is owned by NAMA aswell, which is even more annoying (but thats for another day)

djimi

Have a look on Daft and see what similar properties are going for in the area. Basically the increase is justifiable if the landlord would get the increased amount should they put the property back on the market.

The_Conductor

If you're disputing the proposed increase in rent- just remember you have to lodge your dispute before the due date for the increase.........