Irish plates - the most characters in EU

CiniO

I went quickly through wikipedia, and it looks like, that Ireland, even though it's a small country comparing to other EU members, uses the longest numberplates (with the most amount of characters) all over EU.

My car has 9 character on the plate.
I don't think there are any plates with 10 characters issued in Ireland yet, but with 131 and 132 thing, this will happen soon.

Average over EU seems to be 6 to 7 characters. Some members use or used only 5, while some use 8.
No one except Ireland seem to be using 9 or above characters on numberplate.

Is this justified to have such numberplates?
It takes greater amount of time to read the plate with so many characters, and therefore some people might not be able to read it f.e. after hit and run when car is running away. (and I assume the main reason of displaying a numberplate on a car in reasonable big size is to make it possible to read when someone is running away)


What do you think?

challengemaster

You really do have little to be worrying about.

They work fine, they aren't changing any time soon either.

jca

I think the 131 looks ridiculous. In all fairness it can't see it making one bit of difference to car sales peaks.... The market is dead in the water. I bet in December it will be abolished. It was only cooked up because the stealers thought no one would want 13 0n their reg especially the Travellers...Who quite frankly seem to be the only ones buying new this year.... Otherwise I think its a great system.

Yakuza

I'm with Cinio - it's too long. This 131/2 crap is just silly. The previous system was fine.
9 digits is hard to remember in the case of a hit-and-run or other accident (most humans can do 7/8 digits at a push).

I don't think we'll hit 10 digits anytime soon - the 120XXX D reg numbers was only a temporary thing while revenue switched computer systems. AFAIK imports from 2011 and on will just get the number next in sequence. I'd be surprised if 100,000 vehicles were registered in any given 6 months (or even a year) for a good while to come.

Silvera

You are correct OP. We have the longest reg plate numbers in the EU.
(Nearest is Germany at 8-digits).

The purpose of a reg plate is indeed to identify a vehicle fast and efficiently in the event of criminal activity, a traffic accident, traffic infringement, etc etc.

Our plates have become way too long over the years, all because the govt/SIMI want to use plates to generate revenue rather than as a simple and effective means to id a vehicle.

Pre-1987 plates always had a maximum of 6-digits (now we have up 9 digits).

Example, which reg is easier to remember in a hurry (pre-87 Dublin plate, current system)?

- ZG 3487
- 131-D-13527

In December 1986 the govt should have introduced a system using each county letter(s), followed by up to 4 numbers, e.g. -

Wicklow (WW-1 to WW-9999, and then 1-WW to 9999-WW)
(and reissue plates when vehicles are scrapped or exported).

Or issue each person with their own assigned reg plate number, which is then transferred to subsequent vehicles (as happens in many countries).

Instead they put the year on reg plates which had the desired effect of creating a 'keeping up with the Jones' effect among the majority of car owners. (e.g. remember the year 2000 '00' hype? The first year in which Dublin hit 9-digit plates - 00-D-120000).

CJhaughey

A 6 digit alphanumeric plate would be much better.
3 letters and 3 numbers. Plenty for a population this size and woud be much easier to remember.
And it would even out the whole peak/trough thing if that was the intention for the most recent change:rolleyes:

ShadowHearth

OSI wrote: »

To be honest, I don't give a crap. It's a simple, affective system, and people need to stop ****ing with it just because Healy-Rae, SIMI, or the EU has a brain fart.

You will give a ****, when someone will hit you on the road and drive off. Witness and you wont be able to remember the number plate as it has gazilion numbers.

Sometimes its not about ealy-Rae, SIMI, or the EU has a brain fart, but about common sense.

Marcusm

CJhaughey wrote: »

A 6 digit alphanumeric plate would be much better.
3 letters and 3 numbers. Plenty for a population this size and woud be much easier to remember.
And it would even out the whole peak/trough thing if that was the intention for the most recent change:rolleyes:

You mean the way it used to be!

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

Is this justified to have such numberplates?
It takes greater amount of time to read the plate with so many characters, and therefore some people might not be able to read it f.e. after hit and run when car is running away. (and I assume the main reason of displaying a numberplate on a car in reasonable big size is to make it possible to read when someone is running away)

Its not like you have to remember 9-10 random numbers though, is it? I imagine most people read the year and county subconsciously, which leaves you only having to actually read and remember at most 5 numbers (possibly less).

Personally Id find it easier to remember an Irish plate than I would a plate that is made up of seemingly random letters and numbers.

renofan

OSI wrote: »

To be honest, I don't give a crap. It's a simple, affective system, and people need to stop ****ing with it just because Healy-Rae, SIMI, or the EU has a brain fart.

I agree but they should get rid of the extra 1 or 2 they introduced. The system was, imo, perfect before Jan this year. Simple and easy to remember.

djimi

Yakuza wrote: »

I don't think we'll hit 10 digits anytime soon - the 120XXX D reg numbers was only a temporary thing while revenue switched computer systems. AFAIK imports from 2011 and on will just get the number next in sequence. I'd be surprised if 100,000 vehicles were registered in any given 6 months (or even a year) for a good while to come.

How many times have plates ever hit 100000? To the best of my knowledge it has only happened a couple of times, hasnt it?

LordSutch

I do get the impression that the characters on Irish number plates are much smaller (than on UK plates) for example!

keithclancy

Silvera wrote: »

Example, which reg is easier to remember in a hurry (pre-87 Dublin plate, current system)?

- ZG 3487
- 131-D-13527

The second one for me:
I just have it set in my head as 'Year - City - Number'

I never can never easily remember Dutch Registrations.

Someone unfamiliar with the plates would find it harder for sure.

ShadowHearth

OSI wrote: »

I've had to remember number plates from various cars in various short lived situations plenty of times. Clearly it's not an issue I'm afflicted by.

Good for you. Though is every single person is the same as you? I met shie loads of people who dont even know their own phone number in Ireland, so I doubt they will remember on the spot a Clusterfeck of numbers on a plate.

Yakuza

djimi wrote: »

How many times have plates ever hit 100000? To the best of my knowledge it has only happened a couple of times, hasnt it?

Only once did it do so "naturally" - The year 2000 had over 100,000 registrations in Dublin, I think it crept up over the years to 110,000 with imports, but nowadays you see all sorts of years with the XX-D-120XXX plates (I've seen a 90-D-12000X Sierra and an 86-D-12000X BMW M3)

I had an 2001 import (it came into the country in 2004) and it was 01-D-895XX, so I'm pretty sure 2000 was the peak. If I recall correctly, SIMI was moaning then because even though they had a bumper year in 2000, there'd be a fall off over the subsequent years as folks wouldn't be buying cars in their droves. That shower only ever seem to be whining.

Sam Russell

There was nothing wrong with pre 87 numbers. We just ran out of them.

In the North, they just added a digit. AIZ 1234 to continue the scheme and we should have done the same.

We have another problem coming up with 1914 and 2014 cars carring the same numbers etc.

Also, ir is much better if the number of digits is always the same, as it is obvious if a digit is missing. The British and Dutch sytems are like that.

ShadowHearth

OSI wrote: »

You're much more likely to remember a structured number plate like the Irish one than one made of random characters like some of the european ones, regardless of the addition or subtraction of a 1 or 2 characters. As was already said, the only part you have to struggle to remember is the last, up to, 6 digits.

If we're going to start catering for people with the memory of an 80 year old. We may as well get rid of numbers and letters and issue everyone with pictures of cartoon characters.

The only thing that does save it is the structured start. though you will have soon 131 / 132 X, 141 / 142 X, 151 / 152 X and the whole structure will be able to go and die in an alley.

Its not about making it IDIOT friendly. Its about ****ing around with more numbers, just to make number plate snobs feel better about themselfs.
Number plate was created for identification in the first place, which should be easier to handle, not making it longer and fancier.

djimi

ShadowHearth wrote: »

Number plate was created for identification in the first place, which should be easier to handle, not making it longer and fancier.

I guess it just depends on what you find easier to remember. Personally Im more likely to remember a reg plate in its current format, as although its longer there is a structure to it, and the first half of the plate is easier to remember. Put it this way, Im more likely to remember 05KE23632 than I am DYU5443; the former only has five random characters wheres the latter has seven.

ceegee

The system we have now is fine, as said the only hard part is the sequence of numbers at the end.

At a quick glance its easier to remember the yr and county than 3 random digits so Id guess witnesses memory of partial plates is more accurate with our system. Year+county+model+colour will give gardai a decent enough amount of info to narrow a search.

Also the 1x1 yr system will make it easier for people to describe the car at a glance as it stands out, so a 2013 car is easier to spot than a 2012 car

af_thefragile

The 131 crap is stupid imo. What was wrong with just 13?!
But apart from that the Irish plates probably make the most sense out of all the registration numbers I've seen. Its a very simple and logical system.

jca

Sam Russell wrote: »

There was nothing wrong with pre 87 numbers. We just ran out of them.

In the North, they just added a digit. AIZ 1234 to continue the scheme and we should have done the same.

We have another problem coming up with 1914 and 2014 cars carring the same numbers etc.

Also, ir is much better if the number of digits is always the same, as it is obvious if a digit is missing. The British and Dutch sytems are like that.

The northern system like our old system is fatally flawed. 9999 number per index letter will make it last longer but not forever. Fermanagh is a prime example, it was only issued with IL which eventually ran out. It's using IG now which was never issued originally. The Dutch and French systems are both struggling too.

CiniO

Yakuza wrote: »

I don't think we'll hit 10 digits anytime soon - the 120XXX D reg numbers was only a temporary thing while revenue switched computer systems. AFAIK imports from 2011 and on will just get the number next in sequence. I'd be surprised if 100,000 vehicles were registered in any given 6 months (or even a year) for a good while to come.

True but hence that most counties has 2 letter mark.
Therefore f.e. in Mayo you have 131-MO
That's already 5 characters, so another 5 digits, and we are at 10 char's for the numberplate.

I'm sure bigger counties will be able to make more than 9999 cars in half a year at some stage.

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

Its not like you have to remember 9-10 random numbers though, is it? I imagine most people read the year and county subconsciously, which leaves you only having to actually read and remember at most 5 numbers (possibly less).

Personally Id find it easier to remember an Irish plate than I would a plate that is made up of seemingly random letters and numbers.

I think there are many people around who have no clue what all those letters and numbers on numberplate mean.
While here on this forum, we are all into motors, so we know the stuff, and probably most of us can list the whole table (county - reg mark), but it's not everyone like that.

Also it's not just about remembering. It's just about reading.
When car is running away, and if it's numberplate is becoming smaller within milliseconds, you have very limited time to actually read the plate. Remembering is the next problem, but if you don't have enough time to read it, then remembering won't be necessary.


I get your point, that you are trying to remember f.e. 12345, while facts that car was from 2004 and from Cork are obvious. But there probably is not many people like you who can think about facts that quickly.

Atlantic Dawn

The triple year digits are annoying, they should have come up with another system.

We must also have the most documentation on our windscreens than anywhere else in the world, tax disc, nct disc, insurance disc, L plate, communion photo, whole thing is a joke reducing visibility.

mb1725

No excuse for this driver forgetting his or her reg:

http://mywheels.ie/car-history-check/free-car-check-results/?VRN=abc123

CiniO

LordSutch wrote: »

I do get the impression that the characters on Irish number plates are much smaller (than on UK plates) for example!

They must be if they want to accommodate for that many characters.

But I actually looked now into regulations:

5. The periphery of the plate shall be marked all around by a black border having a stroke width of 5 millimetres and the plate shall be made of metal or plastic.

14. The identification mark shall appear in black characters and each letter or figure shall have a height of 70 millimetres and a stroke width of 10 millimetres. The total width of the space taken by each letter or figure (other than the letter “I” or the number “I”) shall be not less than 36 millimetres and not more than 50 millimetres. The distances between adjoining letters and adjoining figures shall be uniform and shall be not less than 8 millimetres.

15. The distance between the inner edge of the blue background of the flag of the European Communities and the first letter of the placename shall be equal to the distance between the last letter of the placename and the inner edge of the black border on the right-hand side of the plate and shall not be less than 8 millimetres.

16. In the case of an identification mark which is exhibited on a plate in conformity with Diagram No. 1 shown in paragraph 2 of this Schedule—

(a) the external size of the plate shall be 520 millimetres in width and 110 millimetres in height;

(b) the blue background of the flag of the European Communities shall extend vertically from the inner edge of the black border at the top of the plate to the inner edge of the black border at the bottom of the plate and shall extend horizontally for a distance of 40 millimetres from the inner edge of the black border on the left-hand side of the plate;

(d) the index mark shall be separated from adjoining figures on each side of the index mark by a hyphen with a stroke width of 10 millimetres which shall extend horizontally for a distance of not less than 13 millimetres and not more than 22 millimetres; the distances between each hyphen and the nearest part of any adjoining letter or figure shall be uniform and shall be not less than 10 millimetres;

So.
Assume 10 characters plate F.e. 132-KE-23456

Total plate width 520.

From left:
5mm - black border
40mm - blue background
8mm - space
10mm - 1
8mm - space
36m - 3
8mm - space
36mm - 2
10mm - space
13mm- hyphen
10mm - space
36mm - K
8mm - space
36mm - E
10mm - space
13mm - hyphen
10mm - space
36mm - 2
8mm - space
36mm - 3
8mm - space
36mm - 4
8mm space
36mm - 5
8mm space
36mm - 6
8mm space
5mm - black border.

Total: 522mm
That's more that required size of 520mm

So legally if 10 characters plate appears, it can't be made in line with legal requirements, as it just won't fit.
Also this calculations showed the minimum side, while it would be hard to squeze M or W letters into 36mm space.
Also in 10 years when we will have 231 and 232 plates, and there won't be any "1" or "I", it will be even worse.

CiniO

OSI wrote: »

You're much more likely to remember a structured number plate like the Irish one than one made of random characters like some of the european ones, regardless of the addition or subtraction of a 1 or 2 characters. As was already said, the only part you have to struggle to remember is the last, up to, 6 digits.

But many countries with similar size to Ireland only use 6 characters on number plate.

If we're going to start catering for people with the memory of an 80 year old. We may as well get rid of numbers and letters and issue everyone with pictures of cartoon characters.

As I said it's not only about remembering, but also about ability to read that quick.


Besides no one said that structured numberplates are bad.
They surely make it easier to remember for people familiar with the system.

But surely for Ireland with 4.5 millions residents, and just over 2 million vehicles, we could find an easier structured system.

opinion guy

jca wrote: »

I think the 131 looks ridiculous. In all fairness it can't see it making one bit of difference to car sales peaks.... The market is dead in the water. I bet in December it will be abolished. It was only cooked up because the stealers thought no one would want 13 0n their reg especially the Travellers...Who quite frankly seem to be the only ones buying new this year.... Otherwise I think its a great system.

Well so far it hasn't done anything for car sales:

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/new-car-sales-fall-16-in-first-quarter-1.1345846

I suppose there could be a peak when 132 comes in but I don't think it will be so much of a peak

Voodoomelon

djimi wrote: »

I imagine most people read the year and county subconsciously,

Not any more. Wait until its 152 or the likes, and you're standing there scratching your head wondering if it was year 142 or 151 etc that smashed into your car and drove off. What an idiotic system they've changed it to.

CiniO

The problem is that so much characters are just wasted.

First two describing year - it's usually only between 95 and 13, as there is very little older cars on the road. So whole part of 13 to mid 90's is wasted.

Also County name - most counties use 2 characters, so this gives 676 combinations, while in fact there is only 26 counties in Ireland.

The third digit of the year is complete waste as it's either 1 or 2.

Also fact that plates are attached to one car, and can't be reused again, makes a big loss.

We could change the system so number plate is not attached to the car anymore, but rather to person. Everyone who own's a car could get a number plate, and when changing cars this numberplate would be moved to new car. If someone decides not to own a car anymore, he/she would return the plates, so someone else could use it.

There are 26 counties and 26 letters so this looks easy (one letter describing county).

Instead of year of car, let's use year of birth of the person.

And instead of subsequent number let's use 3 random letters.

So. f.e John born in 1967 who lives in Tipperary, could have a number 67-T-HFG

That makes 6 character plates.
Over 17 thousand combinations for each year in each county, should be enough, and in the worst case, Dublin could use extra digit on the end (f.e. 83-D-ABC1) if they run out.

This still has year and county on the plate, so as many have said - easy to remember.

CJhaughey

Sam Russell wrote: »

There was nothing wrong with pre 87 numbers. We just ran out of them.

In the North, they just added a digit. AIZ 1234 to continue the scheme and we should have done the same.

We have another problem coming up with 1914 and 2014 cars carring the same numbers etc.

Also, ir is much better if the number of digits is always the same, as it is obvious if a digit is missing. The British and Dutch sytems are like that.

The problem with the old Irish/NI system is that the three Alpha characters are linked to counties that makes a lot of characters redundant or unable to be used.
If the first three alpha characters were random and not linked to county you have a far larger amount of combinations.
In the North UI was the old prefix for Derry cars, then it became BUI-CUI etc.
The Motortax offices are now going to be done away with so why not just use non-county prefixes and do away with the whole year/county prefix and just use a 3 letter identifier?

Peregrinus

The ease of reading, comprehending and remembering number plates (or any other encoded information) is not really a question of how long they are.

The year and county identifier in plates are easily comprehensible and memorable, because they have a definite meaning with which they can easily and permanently be associated in your mind. That leaves a five- or six-digit number to be recalled. (Realistically, a five-digit number, since if there is a sixth digit it will always be '1'.)

Whether a five-digit number - say, 34769 - is easier to read and to recall than a mixed alphanumeric sequence - say BIS 349 - is one I'll leave to the psychological researchers. But if you wanted the shortest possible sequence, on the basis that shorter is easier to read and recall, you'd go for a sequence of letters. A sequence of four letters of the alphabet gives you a total of 456,976 permutations, which is enough for any county in any year.

So, D - 13 - ABCD, anybody?

Another little-known fact; lower-case letters are easier to distinguish and to read than upper-case letters (which is why WRITING IN ALL CAPS IS CONSIDERED IRRITATING). So woulnd't we do better to use lower-case letters on registration plates?

d - 13 - abcd

_Kaiser_

Just stop messing with one of the few things that actually works (or worked until this stupid 131/2 nonsense!) properly in the country.

All this talk about random letters and numbers that mean nothing to most people is silly.

YEAR-COUNTY-NUMBER .. what's so hard about that? Especially after 25 years of it.

Personally I think that the country has a lot more to be concerned about than "fixing" something that isn't broken or conceding to stupid superstitious nonsense (although I suppose you could say the same about the "Good" Friday drinks ban. You'd think the world was ending the night before with the stampede to the drinks aisle in supermarkets.. especially annoying if you don't drink/drink socially)

But that's Ireland for ya.. tinker at the edges while the rest of the place falls apart.

jca

CJhaughey wrote: »

The problem with the old Irish/NI system is that the three Alpha characters are linked to counties that makes a lot of characters redundant or unable to be used.
If the first three alpha characters were random and not linked to county you have a far larger amount of combinations.
In the North UI was the old prefix for Derry cars, then it became BUI-CUI etc.
The Motortax offices are now going to be done away with so why not just use non-county prefixes and do away with the whole year/county prefix and just use a 3 letter identifier?

That's why the Dutch system is lasting as long as it is. It's centrally administered and just spits out number/ letter combos irrespective of vehicle location or year. Typically Dutch, simple and efficient.

jca

It'll never happen but I think the whole year/county system should be abolished and replaced with a centrally administered system. From 2015 all registration plates will be 15 xxxx, next year 16 xxxx, the X's being letters similar to the random element in the uk system. Imported vehicles get their year of first registration ie 09 xxxx. Get rid of all the county based administration which is ott for a country the size of Ireland.

CiniO

jca wrote: »

It'll never happen but I think the whole year/county system should be abolished and replaced with a centrally administered system. From 2015 all registration plates will be 15 xxxx, next year 16 xxxx, the X's being letters similar to the random element in the uk system. Imported vehicles get their year of first registration ie 09 xxxx. Get rid of all the county based administration which is ott for a country the size of Ireland.

I like this one.
6 characters.
2 digits, 4 letters.

This gives over 400,000 numberplates per year, which is way more than enough.

Yakuza

CiniO wrote: »

True but hence that most counties has 2 letter mark.
Therefore f.e. in Mayo you have 131-MO
That's already 5 characters, so another 5 digits, and we are at 10 char's for the numberplate.

Good point - I live in a universe with only D reg cars

keithclancy

jca wrote: »

That's why the Dutch system is lasting as long as it is. It's centrally administered and just spits out number/ letter combos irrespective of vehicle location or year. Typically Dutch, simple and efficient.

They repeatedly had to change the system over the years. I believe its on its 7th iteration now.

No system is perfect, you'll find flaws in all of them.

Irish one is about the simplist IMO.

Drive around Frankfurt and you'll see lots of F-AG plates.

Silvera

I've always thought that the Swiss registration system is an excellent set-up.
Very straightforward and logical...similar to our pre-1987 system.

Swiss plates = Canton (County), plus up to six numbers.

Example...

Zurich - ZH 703 201
(note the gap in the middle, which makes the number easier to read/recall).

Plates are either square or oblong at the rear.

http://www.worldlicenseplates.com/world/EU_SWIT.html

Silvera

OSI wrote: »

That would net you a massive 20,000 cars per county. That's nowhere near enough.

Such a system could obviously be expanded like the Swiss system I mentioned above.

jca

CiniO wrote: »

I like this one.
6 characters.
2 digits, 4 letters.

This gives over 400,000 numberplates per year, which is way more than enough.

I can only see one flaw in my system.... Some four letter combos couldn't be used!!

Sam Russell

jca wrote: »

I can only see one flaw in my system.... Some four letter combos couldn't be used!!

You would have to omit some four letter combinations alright!

jca

Sam Russell wrote: »

You would have to omit some four letter combinations alright!

I'd like 15 FCEK.... The Irish connection!!

CJhaughey

jca wrote: »

I can only see one flaw in my system.... Some four letter combos couldn't be used!!

Same as the three letter combos not used in the NZ system, AAA111 style ,ARS, ASS, BAD, BAG, BAT, BRA, BUM, BUT, CNT, CUM, CUN, DUM, FAG, FAK, FAT, FCK, FKN, FKQ, FKU, FQM, FQN, FUC, FUK, FUQ, FUZ

jca

CJhaughey wrote: »

Same as the three letter combos not used in the NZ system, AAA111 style ,ARS, ASS, BAD, BAG, BAT, BRA, BUM, BUT, CNT, CUM, CUN, DUM, FAG, FAK, FAT, FCK, FKN, FKQ, FKU, FQM, FQN, FUC, FUK, FUQ, FUZ

Will the NZ system run out eventually?

CJhaughey

jca wrote: »

Will the NZ system run out eventually?

Maybe.
The thing with NZ is that even though everything on the road has a unique Plate, they use different systems for Bikes, Cars and Trailers/Caravans.
Cars were AA1234 since 2001 the new system is AAA123
Bikes are A1AAA
Trailers and caravans are A111A
They also have personalised plates.

Solair

Considering that the car sales boom is long over (celtic tigre era) and the system survived that, I can't see any reason to change it.

If there were any pinch points, the worst you'd have to do is split Dublin into maybe D and DN to reduce the number of digits at the end.

I could see the 131 thing being dropped next year if no sales spikes happen in June.

131-C-ABCD would give you a lot of combinations.

Maybe sell those letter codes too so you could have

131-C-PHIL or whatever.

Lord Nikon

Someone give me a good explanation, why the county has to be on the reg plate, in Irish, yet the letter on the plate is the first letter of the county in English?

Solair

Lord Nikon wrote: »

Someone give me a good explanation, why the county has to be on the reg plate, in Irish, yet the letter on the plate is the first letter of the county in English?

Because someone went on a junket to America and saw licence plate slogans?

jca

Lord Nikon wrote: »

Someone give me a good explanation, why the county has to be on the reg plate, in Irish, yet the letter on the plate is the first letter of the county in English?

Didn't some Irish language loony bring them to court trying to get the whole system based on the Irish language? I think the County in Irish on the plate is the resulting compromise, only in Ireland eh?

Silvera

jca wrote: »

Didn't some Irish language loony bring them to court trying to get the whole system based on the Irish language? I think the County in Irish on the plate is the resulting compromise, only in Ireland eh?

Thats correct. If the Irish language 'people' had won their challenge we would have '131-BAC-nnnnn' instead of '131-D-nnnnn' i.e. they wanted the county in Irish (BAC= Baile Atha Cliath).

Wicklow - 131-CM-nnnnn
Meath - 131-AM-nnnnn
Wexford - 131-LG-nnnnn
etc etc etc