So confused about windows :-(

tea and coffee

Causing me no end of worry regarding the right thing to do...

There are teak hardwood single glazed windows in place at the moment (georgian style), *not* sash windows.

Company #1 says they can rout the frames, even on the sashes - and get Pilkington glass in, then cover over with slips. (the Georgian style would be gone, which is great!)
Company #2 says no way can the frames be routed, there isn't enough depth in the main frames never mind the sashes, and they would have to create pieces to fit over the original frame- almost like a sandwich I am guessing to click in over the original frames. Also would make new sashes that would take a double glazed unit

Company #3 says the frames can't take it and get double glazed UPVC.

Don't know what to do.

Option 1: approx €10k
Option 2: approx €15k
Option 3: approx €17k

sydthebeat

firstly, if its a protected structure then uPVC windows are not allowed.

secondly,
is the first company planing to install a 6mm double glazed pane? or a single glaze?
if single glaze thats 10k down the drain

tea and coffee

No, its not a protected structure, not in the slightest! And they are just regular windows with side openings or top openings.

The first company are planning on double glazing it.

Basically, it's whatever would be easiest to best to use to upgrade to double glazing while taking account of cost.

sydthebeat

tea and coffee wrote: »

No, its not a protected structure, not in the slightest! And they are just regular windows with side openings or top openings.

The first company are planning on double glazing it.

Basically, it's whatever would be easiest to best to use to upgrade to double glazing while taking account of cost.

OK thanks

so do you know if both companies are planing on installing the same thickness double glazed panes?
your first company are probably installing a 6mm gap DG unit... what are the second company installing?

tea and coffee

emmm.... not entirely sure.

First company mentioned that glazing would have a u value of 1.2 /1.1 so I am going to go with a total unit size of 2.4cm
2nd company the same.

sydthebeat

tea and coffee wrote: »

total unit size of 2.4cm
.

ok, thats a thickness of pane of 24mm, im assuming.
thats a 4mm glass, 16mm gap and 4mm glass DG unit.

Thats quite a unit to fit into an existing teak window, especially a sash. :eek:

ask both companies to see evidence of previous similar work

tea and coffee

sydthebeat wrote: »

ok, thats a thickness of pane of 24mm, im assuming.
thats a 4mm glass, 16mm gap and 4mm glass DG unit.

Thats quite a unit to fit into an existing teak window, especially a sash. :eek:

ask both companies to see evidence of previous similar work

Yes, I know, its enourmous!

I asked to see first company's work and they gave me a number of a previous client who lives just down the road for me. I ahve tried to ring the house for the past couple of weeks and there is no reply
2nd company, the chap has done it on his own house and I am going to see it at the weekend.

All this hassle, methinks I should just go for blooming PVC.

sydthebeat

with pvc just account for the removal and installation issues.

Assuming they can be taken out from the external, what reveal plastering issues will you have?
will you need new window boards?

the old teak windows can be very very draughty and should have draught strips applied to all sashes as a minmum upgrade.

tea and coffee

Thanks Sydthebeat.
Windows aren't too bad at the moment draughtwise. I mean, ok after 30 years the panes are draughty but the sahes are pretty good and the timber is in good shape. Putty starting to go on the georgian effect (the Georgian is in timber, similar to this :
http://www.roncurrie.co.uk/eBAY/Idigbo-Georgian-Window.html ) but I am getting rid of the Georgian anyway and just ahving planin glass

2nd crowd will fit draughtexcluders and so on.
1st crowd just rout and then fit the panes and put new slips on.

Will need new windowboards anyway as we are drylining....

In re brand new windows: will be replastering and so on after insulation, and also I am widening 2 new windows and creating one brand new one.

But then UPVC is a bit rubbish in comparison to timber (allegedly!) and it works out more expenseive.

Just seems a shame to waste teak windows, but if it means tonnes of hassle and rubbish windows at the end of it to keep them then off they go!!

nhg

Where I work, the way we would go about that is, make all new sashes which would have rubber draught seals in them, also make a sash to fit the fixed pane again with a rubber seal, the old sashes get totally replaced & the Georgian bars in the fixed pane get cut out & the new fixed sash (which is screwed in) covers where the bars were cut out. This way you can use either 24mm double or triple glazing. You would still have old style hinges & fasteners.

With new hardwood windows you would have friction hinges & espag locking, rubber draught seals in window frame & also in sash. The windows that we make in our workshop are 'A' Rate with a 1.5 uValue, worth pricing around.

As you mention that you are insulating, replastering, fitting new window boards etc I would be more inclined to go with new windows. I would imagine that it wouldn't cost a lot more to have new hardwood windows as converting from s/g to d/g is labour intensive especially where removing Georgian bars is involved as well.

Just trying to give honest opinion.

tea and coffee

Thanks NHG. I had a double glazing rep out over the weekend and he can give me brand new D/G UPVC for about €10k fitted :-/ Prices have dropped since I last got quoted (majorly obviously!)
Really looking like I should ditch the timber unless someone is willing to cut me a deal.... a huge shame

nhg

One of the most important things is the glass with regard to energy payback. It's worth educating yourself on this. You want the highest grade available at present on the market.

A Rate Double glazing will have a coating to both the inner & outer pane (naturally both coatings will be in the middle of the sealed unit so can't be damaged with cleaning etc). The outer pane will heat your room from the rays of the sun & the inner pane will reflect the heat already in your room back into your room. The spacer bar that is used is also an important factor, Swiss V is one of the best at present (but very hard to get), most use a warm edge spacer, the cavity usually has a 90% Argon Fill. If we are ever fortunate enough to get a heat wave this glass will make your home hot, chances of that are very slim, and we would have the windows open in this type of scenario anyway & be outdoor living for those few rare days.

Triple glazing unless it is 42mm will have the exact same uValue as double glazing, it is a lot more expensive, it is a lot heavier thus making it harder on hinges etc. Triple glazing is best suited to large fixed glazed screens (glass walls). It is excellent for reducing outdoor noise, for this problem, you could also have two different thicknesses of glass in your D/G unit (ie 4mm & 6mm) as this also helps to cut down of noise getting through the unit.

Again the way the windows are installed are also a very important factor.

Don't just go for the cheapest quote, it's like everything, you pay for what you get!

Bear in mind that your Hardwood windows are 20 yrs+, are still going good except technology has moved on & can still be upgraded to double glazing & easily repaired - if these were uPVC windows they probably would have needed replacing before now. Its easy to replace rubber seals in timber window - rubber seals perish - maybe someone more knowledgable on uPVC can inform us on this. If a uPVC window needs repairs after a breaking or something of the sort - the complete window would probably have to be changed as they change profiles so regularly.

Take your time on making your decision - it's a big investment in your home.

Sorry for long post but I much prefer to post this type of information so that others can benefit from it as well rather than PM

joeirish

I'm a bit late to this thread but here goes anyway.

Been looking at different window types for a new house, aluclad, aluminium, uPVC so far. Each manufacturer/seller has raised serious issues with the other options, no surprise there. But there do seem to be downsides to all the systems on offer. Which has led me to start considering hardwood windows. This is what we have in our current house with double glazed units. Every three years or so I put on Sadolin to protect on the outside. After 16 years they are as good as new, no rot, no drafts, just the DG is perhaps not as effective as it was because of modern technology. (Not sure if there will have been any shrinkage in the timber frames which is letting cold air in around the edges, but no movement when using smoke to test).

So, advice if you can on using hardwood windows for our new house. We are looking to have something with good u values, walls will be 0.18 to 0.2 and windows should be around 1 or 0.9. I'm also planning to have a reasonably airtight house, as low as I can so that MHRV can be used (but this could change). So is it possible to get hardwood windows (and a couple of large external glazed doors) that are thermally efficient and airtight without compromising the overall building efficiency? If this is possible can you PM with names of companies who can help.

Thanks

bertie 56

joeirish wrote: »

I'm a bit late to this thread but here goes anyway.

Been looking at different window types for a new house, aluclad, aluminium, uPVC so far. Each manufacturer/seller has raised serious issues with the other options, no surprise there. But there do seem to be downsides to all the systems on offer. Which has led me to start considering hardwood windows. This is what we have in our current house with double glazed units. Every three years or so I put on Sadolin to protect on the outside. After 16 years they are as good as new, no rot, no drafts, just the DG is perhaps not as effective as it was because of modern technology. (Not sure if there will have been any shrinkage in the timber frames which is letting cold air in around the edges, but no movement when using smoke to test).

So, advice if you can on using hardwood windows for our new house. We are looking to have something with good u values, walls will be 0.18 to 0.2 and windows should be around 1 or 0.9. I'm also planning to have a reasonably airtight house, as low as I can so that MHRV can be used (but this could change). So is it possible to get hardwood windows (and a couple of large external glazed doors) that are thermally efficient and airtight without compromising the overall building efficiency? If this is possible can you PM with names of companies who can help.

Thanks

Yes it is possible, and not even in hardwood, but in softwood as well.
I see you laughing, but I salvaged a dozen of these windows in a 20 years old house that was 50 meters from the sea, West Ireland. Still in good shape. Once you maintain the wood, you are sound.
Ah, by the way, they were triple glaze , a bit ahead at this time ... :eek:

NorDan does them , from 0.7 , and airtight.

nhg

Unfortunately the softwood of 20yrs ago and the softwood of today are two completely different things!

Softwood is perfect if you live somewhere with a different climate to damp old Eire!

bertie 56

nhg wrote: »

Unfortunately the softwood of 20yrs ago and the softwood of today are two completely different things!

I'm not talking about the Balcas stuff you find in your local merchant here.
I'm talking about windows made in Nordic countries, as do the brand taken as example. Please tell us about the timber industry in these countries, when it come to choose some timber for windows.
I saw these new windows from the named brand in softwood, the wood is good quality : straight grain,narrow growth rings, stability in service.

The downturn is , of course, to keep an eye on them, and take care of them when needed. It's wood, not plastic !

nhg wrote: »

Softwood is perfect if you live somewhere with a different climate to damp old Eire!

Yes, you are right, Norway is a very dry country !
( see map of rainfall , twice the amount of Ireland in West Norway )

Ah, something else, we do boats in softwood...

joeirish

bertie 56 wrote: »

Yes it is possible,

NorDan does them , from 0.7 , and airtight.

I visited their showroom on Saturday, waiting for the quotes now. Thanks.

fatty pang

bertie 56 wrote: »

I'm not talking about the Balcas stuff you find in your local merchant here.
I'm talking about windows made in Nordic countries, as do the brand taken as example. Please tell us about the timber industry in these countries, when it come to choose some timber for windows.
I saw these new windows from the named brand in softwood, the wood is good quality : straight grain,narrow growth rings, stability in service.

The downturn is , of course, to keep an eye on them, and take care of them when needed. It's wood, not plastic !


Yes, you are right, Norway is a very dry country !
( see map of rainfall , twice the amount of Ireland in West Norway )

Ah, something else, we do boats in softwood...

The Nordics whilst making excellent windows do things slightly differently. The Norwegians you mentioned and the Swedes primarily use a pressure impregnation for applying the wood preservative. The Danes (and central europeans) tend to use a superficial processes such as flow-coating or dipping. Pressure impregnation will give you circa 6mm surface penetration and 10x that on the end grain. The superficial process gives a surface coating of preservative with perhaps 1mm of penetration at best. Very few folk with expert knowledge of external joinery would advise using anything less then pressure impregnation in this part of the world unless using hardwood or 100% heartwood (in which case preservative isn't necessary)

Such windows would be comfortably expected to have a service life of 60+ years if properly maintained.