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Who versus Whom?

  • 10-04-2013 8:41pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 545 ✭✭✭Chemical Burn


    Do you know the difference? Do you use them? I do, in speech, text and facebook chat. I get told off for it by my OH and she says no one uses them :P well, fellow boardsies ?? Do you?

    I hear professionals and ignorant people alike, and nothing makes my skin crawl more than some pleb misusing who and whom. RTÉ presenters often omit the proper usage of whom. What kind of a sick world are we living in, people?

    Do you use who and whom appropriately? 16 votes

    I know the difference but do no use them
    0%
    I don't know the difference and I don't want to know or use them
    75%
    markfinnghostdancerFeathersDeedsieIwasfrozenIrish_wolfEathrinMonkstownHoopAbsoluvelyWhatsernamex33coolhullCosmicfox 12 votes
    I know the difference and use them appropriately
    25%
    TiGeR KiNgSDebDynamitepaulmclaughlinBUBBLE WRAP 4 votes


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,874 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    Yep.

    But I'm a sad grammar nazi.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    There are people on boards who absolutely love these type threads OP ,they are called grammar Nazis and one or a dozen will be along shortly I'm sure .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭GreenWolfe


    You may want to request access to Spell Czechs.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055859481


  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Beckett Narrow Popgun


    Yes to all of your questions in the OP


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You missed the "I don't know the difference but I am willing to learn"

    I'm this option.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    I know the difference (basically, "who" refers to the subject of a clause, "whom" to the object: it's actually fairly simple), but always use "who." There's no confusion created by using it in place of "whom."


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Eh? Clause? Object? I'm still lost Moo. You may have to start at junior infants level with me :P


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭crockholm


    Honestly,no,I don't. Would you be willing to help a doofus like me. I will call you sensei.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 545 ✭✭✭Chemical Burn


    I know the difference (basically, "who" refers to the subject of a clause, "whom" to the object: it's actually fairly simple), but always use "who." There's no confusion created by using it in place of "whom."

    Exactly this !!! A true fellow linguist fan :D

    Who = Nominative

    Whom = Dative and Accusative

    Whose = Genitive !!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 275 ✭✭Irish_wolf


    I don't know the difference and I don't want to know or use them
    As far as I'm aware it's like this

    you use whom anywhere you could use him,
    use who anywhere you would use he.

    Probably have that wrong though.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 545 ✭✭✭Chemical Burn


    Irish_wolf wrote: »
    As far as I'm aware it's like this

    you use whom anywhere you could use him,
    use who anywhere you would use he.

    Probably have that wrong though.

    Correct


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭crockholm


    Exactly this !!! A true fellow linguist fan :D

    Who = Nominative

    Whom = Dative and Accusative

    Whose = Genitive !!!
    Those clauses I only remember from learning German, but never had their relevance to English explained.:(


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Feck sake Chemical Burn, you less help than the King of Moo!

    Irish_wolf - To whom it may concern = To him it may concern ????


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    Eh? Clause? Object? I'm still lost Moo. You may have to start at junior infants level with me :P

    Basically, in a sentence or clause (part of a sentence), the subject does the action, and the object has the action done to them.

    For example: I (subject) talked (verb in the past simple form) to John (object).

    Now imagine that the previous sentence is the answer to a question. There are two possible questions that could produce that answer.

    A subject question, using "who:" "Who talked to John?"
    "I did."
    Here, we're looking for the subject, the person who did the action, so we use "who."

    An object question, using "whom:" "Whom did you talk to?"
    "John."
    Here, we're looking for the object of the action, the one on the receiving end, so we use "whom."

    As I said though, there's never really any confusion caused by using "who" to refer to an object of an action, so it's ok to use it in place of "whom."


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    Meh, whom cares?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    Feck sake Chemical Burn, you less help than the King of Moo!

    Irish_wolf - To whom it may concern = To him it may concern ????
    Who is that?/Who are you?

    For whom the bell tolls/To whom it may concern


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 545 ✭✭✭Chemical Burn


    crockholm wrote: »
    Those clauses I only remember from learning German, but never had their relevance to English explained.:(

    Clauses, Declensions, Cases same thing, different name


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    Irish_wolf wrote: »
    As far as I'm aware it's like this

    you use whom anywhere you could use him,
    use who anywhere you would use he.

    Probably have that wrong though.

    That's a good, simple way to remember it. "He" is another subject pronoun, like "who," "I," "they" etc. and "him" is an object pronoun like "whom," "me," "them" etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,389 ✭✭✭mattjack


    Wasn't there a programme on the telly box years ago called Doctor Whom ? or was it Doctor Who ?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    Mit wem muss Ich Essen.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 545 ✭✭✭Chemical Burn


    Feck sake Chemical Burn, you less help than the King of Moo!

    Irish_wolf - To whom it may concern = To him it may concern ????

    "To" is a preposition, hence goes into the Dative case, as with most Romance and Germanic languages.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭crockholm


    Deutsches wein,mag ich nicht.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    Who is that?/Who are you?

    For whom the bell tolls/To whom it may concern
    Exactly and so obvious to .Like who's going start a letter with '' Hey you...whoever you are '' ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Feathers


    I don't know the difference and I don't want to know or use them
    Irish_wolf - To whom it may concern = To him it may concern ????

    You'd say "It may concern him" rather than "It may concern he" - works as a rule of thumb.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    Latchy wrote: »
    Exactly and so obvious to .Like who's going start a letter with '' Hey you...whoever you are '' ?
    Dear Sir/Madam if in doubt. :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/04/for-whom-the-bell-tolls/309266/

    An interesting read there on the subject.

    As banal as the subject appears to be it is vital that we don't allow our language to be undermined: from Confucius to Darwin to Koestler and Orwell; there is usually some debate about the minutiae of grammar, but they exist for a reason; so that we can communicate what we think and any actions taken which limit our ability to do so should be fought against. To possess the ability to translate what we think into what we say is the mark of civilisation.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Who said that?
    Whomever said that is talking out of their arse!

    Am I doing it right?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    Who said that?
    Whomever said that is talking out of their arse!

    Am I doing it right?

    The second one should be "whoever," as it refers to the person doing the action (saying).

    If you're not sure which to use, think about what' the sentence's action is (every sentence has to have a verb), who or what is doing it, and who or what is having it done to them, if the sentence has an object.

    That's why we say "To whom it concerns."

    The construction is unusual, but the verb is "concerns," the thing doing the concerning is "it," and the person who is the object of this concerning is "whom."
    So a question would be: "Whom does this concern?"

    Two more quick examples:
    John is the person who talked to Mary (John did the action).
    Mary is the person whom John talked to (Mary was the object of the action).


  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Beckett Narrow Popgun


    He said that
    he is talking out of his arse
    => who


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    King Moo is the Garda who arrested Strawberry Milkshake.
    Strawberry Milkshake was the person whom Garda Moo arrested.

    ?

    Should that be "is the person" or "was the person" or does it just depend on the timing of the arrest?

    Ps: I like learning I do :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    King Moo is the Garda who arrested Strawberry Milkshake.
    Strawberry Milkshake was the person whom Garda Moo arrested.

    ?

    Spot on! Gold star for you!!





    Now come on there, move along!!

    *Strawberry Milkshake shoves hand in front of RTÉ camera on the way into court*


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    Should that be "is the person" or "was the person" or does it just depend on the timing of the arrest?

    Ps: I like learning I do :)

    In this case you could you really use both, but strictly, it's better to use "is" (present simple), because even though the action referred to is in the past, you're still that same person now.

    Using "was" would suggest that you're now a different person (Strawberry Milkshake was the person Moo arrested, but now she [I'm guessing!] is someone else), but of course no-one would actually make that mistake, and your meaning would still be clear. Using the past simple form of "arrested" tells the listener/reader that the action happened in the past, so you don't need to use "was" to indicate that.

    I should point out, in case people think I'm just incredibly patronising, that this is literally my day job.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    King Moo is the Garda who arrested Strawberry Milkshake.
    Strawberry Milkshake was the person whom Garda Moo arrested.

    ?

    Should that be "is the person" or "was the person" or does it just depend on the timing of the arrest?

    Ps: I like learning I do :)
    Spot on! Gold star for you!!
    We need a new forum - 'Intricacies of the English language', HMod: The King of Moo.





    Now come on there, move along!!

    *Strawberry Milkshake shoves hand in front of RTÉ camera on the way into court*
    We need a new forum - 'Intricacies of the English language', HMod: The King of Moo.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    An English language forum would be a great idea and I second Shopaholic01's motion for HMod.

    But before I head to feedback, I'm off to google the words Chemical Burn used lol


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Kinski


    An English language forum would be a great idea and I second Shopaholic01's motion for HMod.

    But before I head to feedback, I'm off to google the words Chemical Burn used lol

    There you go, knock yourself out.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    An English language forum would be a great idea and I second Shopaholic01's motion for HMod.

    But before I head to feedback, I'm off to google the words Chemical Burn used lol
    It's like 'tip the can' all over again! :pac:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 548 ✭✭✭Three Seasons


    I actually love grammar.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Kinski wrote: »
    There you go, knock yourself out.

    Ooooh, just the place for my assumption/presumption confusion!

    Thank you :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,186 ✭✭✭BUBBLE WRAP


    I know the difference and use them appropriately
    I just always use "who". Apart from Yahoo. Then it's "hoo".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,186 ✭✭✭BUBBLE WRAP


    I know the difference and use them appropriately
    I actually love grammar.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    Ooooh, just the place for my assumption/presumption confusion!

    Thank you :)

    They're basically interchangeable nowadays, and there's actually a lot of debate about their respective meanings, but the most-commonly held difference is that an assumption is purely hypothetical, with no basis in evidence, whereas a presumptions is based on some evidence or pre-existing knowledge.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 94,288 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    Dear Sir/Madam if in doubt. :pac:

    Suppose I'm neither a knight nor a brothel manager.

    Dear Citizen? Dear human?


This discussion has been closed.
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