Conservation architect fee - Heart attack inducing

Voodoomelon

Hey all.
Another quick "is this fee reasonable" post.

I recently acquired a medium sized Georgian property and took on a conservation architect firm to oversee planning on its refurbishment, as it is a protected structure. This is the exact order of what was done:

-Late last year, two site visits occurred along with a meet and greet.

-Full plans of the house were drawn up as it stood, and then a second set of plans were drawn up of proposed works, which was basically a switching around of internal room functions. An extension was proposed and drawn up, but this has been scrapped. There are no alterations to the property from a planning point of view, other than a knocking of a small lean-to extension and installing a wall and door in its place.

-Full method statement of the property was completed, including local history, location, pictures of the house, areas of note/concern etc.
-Full plan of renovation was completed with details of methods/materials to use

-Electrical layout on plans completed

-Drawings of sash windows completed, as well as a new french doors and back door.

-Planning permission was applied for, fees paid etc

-Maybe five-six phone calls over 7 months

-One further site visit today.

Total cost, €5000 plus VAT.

It's very hard to guesstimate the hours above, but I can't see it being more than 30 hours which is €165 an hour. It just irks me the plans completed are of what already exists, it's not like it's a new build.

Thoughts?

Will23

three questions:

1. what grade conservation architect are we taking about?

2. how much work was carried out on the proposed works for the extension before they were scrapped.

3. was a fee or hourly rate agreed at the outset?

30 hours seems a little light in terms of hours input for what you described, it may be more in the 40/50 hour mark.

€100-150 an hour for an experienced grade 1 conservation architect would not be considered a high fee.

Outkast_IRE

Wait you think its only 30 hours to do everything you said, to me drawing up a good set of plans and drawing up a plan showing changes And electrical layout plans are more than 30 hours to do them to a high standard.

I think your being a bit light on hours to be honest.

Voodoomelon

Thanks for the reply.
No hourly fee was agreed. However a percentage was mentioned at the start once I told them how much I was going to spend renovating. It was not mentioned if this fee included or excluded VAT, i wrongly thought it did.

Not sure of the grade architect, they have 9001 certification and have a few awards under their belt.

The proposed extension was a single room, single story approx 12ft x12ft surrounded in glass. No electrical, foundation details etc.

That's fair enough regarding the hours, I was stabbing the dark.

sydthebeat

does no one ever agree a fee before works anymore??

Voodoomelon

Frankly, I thought what was done so far (all of above) would amount to maybe 30-50% of the fee, and would then choose to see if I would continue with their help after the planning stage. Turns out this work done is 66% of the fee to date.

DOCARCH

The survey 'as is' of the existing house alone (i.e. taking measurements and then drawing plans, sections and elevations, etc.) probably took around 20 to 30 hours alone!

I would estimate you could at least double the hours you estimate for what you have described.

Preparing and submitting a planning application for a protected structure is quite onerous and time consuming. The method statement (you mention above) alone could be a days work (having done them myself!).

Voodoomelon

That's fair enough.
I should also mention that a previous architect from over a year ago already had the house plans drawn up with measurements; these basic plans were submitted to the existing architects.

fealeranger

You should always ask for a quote for what you needed done and try a few firms to compare prices. As for vat, people who don't include this in their price/quote first day are chancers trying to trick customers by appearing cheaper. Get a written quote all included. After that it is their problem to sort out VAT. I had building merchants quoting materials to me like "That will be €3000 excluding VAT." I aked them are they paying the vat seems they are excluding it from the quote and that stopped very quickly.

Voodoomelon

I feel the same, its underhanded casually agreeing with a residential customer with a fee ex VAT and not specifying it from the outset.

I'm in business myself and am used to ex VAT prices, but saying you're charging X% of the total project cost and then tacking on VAT, to a non business customer is misleading.

A fella called fish

No heart attacks for me - €5k sounds about right. Nonetheless, you should have agreed a fee prior to appointing them (and they should have issued some form of fee proposal to you).

Why did you not get 3-4 Architects to quote at the start?

Voodoomelon

Because it was a specialised job, I went with someone my brother works in the industry with. In fairness they've done a decent job of what was required, just the 23% hike is what's annoying me most.

I mean, if for example you told an architect you had €100,000 to spend, and they tell you their fee is 10%, is it not reasonable as a non business customer to have to pay them €10,000, as opposed to €12,300?

BryanF

Professional fees are always ex vat
The quote should state this.

for design, planning & tender dwgs of a listed house, that fee could be justified.

Mellor

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Total cost, €5000 plus VAT.

It's very hard to guesstimate the hours above, but I can't see it being more than 30 hours which is €165 an hour. It just irks me the plans completed are of what already exists, it's not like it's a new build.

Thoughts?

I think the problem is that your estimation of hours is off by so much. It's quite time consuming to survey and draw up a existing house. Especially in a protected structure as elevations and details are so important. And the research and planning process takes up a bit too.
The design work was probably minimal, but you are paying for the whole package and the end result of planning permission.

It's hard to day without seeing the documents but I'd guess it would have been closer to 100 hours. In sure they'd give you a breakdown of the fee if you ask.

sinnerboy

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Another quick "is this fee reasonable" post.

quick - yes

prewtna

agree with all of the above re: hours etc

fee seems reasonable - conservation work is a pain - so much more detail required.

you all should have been clear re: the VAT situation at the start in the fee proposal from the Architect.

i presume there was a fee proposal and then a Client Architect Agreement.

if there was, this issue wouldnt arise

Voodoomelon

prewtna wrote: »

i presume there was a fee proposal and then a Client Architect Agreement.

It was casually mentioned over a lunch in terms of percentage. This percentage was ex VAT. Poor forward thinking on both our parts.

I won't go into detail regarding what was done, but the plans that were done up were far from detailed in my eyes. It's also not a large property, what was done looks relatively straight forward. Not to mention several of the dimensions and scale were not accurate; as I said they worked off another architects plans.

Anyways, I'm happy enough that the hours worked are in line with what was charged based on all the information everyone has given. Not agreeing on the total price inc VAT was a bad decision, you live and learn. But i'm not the professional, they are, it should be standard practice to be clear about these things.

ted1

BryanF wrote: »

Professional fees are always ex vat
The quote should state this.

for design, planning & tender dwgs of a listed house, that fee could be justified.

It's illegal to quote/ advertise ex VAT prices to end users
Under the Tax Inclusive Order 1973 costs of all consumer products and services must be VAT inclusive.

BryanF

ted1 wrote: »

It's illegal to quote/ advertise ex VAT prices to end users
Under the Tax Inclusive Order 1973 costs of all consumer products and services must be VAT inclusive.

What? The quote should state 'the cost of service is X ex vat @23%'
What's illegal about that?

sinnerboy

Voodoomelon wrote: »

It was casually mentioned over a lunch in terms of percentage. This percentage was ex VAT.

So where is the illegallity ?

sydthebeat

BryanF wrote: »

What? The quote should state 'the cost of service is X ex vat @23%'
What's illegal about that?

revenue states you need to provide:

quote ex VAT + VAT rate + VAT amount

ted1

BryanF wrote: »

What? The quote should state 'the cost of service is X ex vat @23%'
What's illegal about that?

It needs to say the cost is X inclusive of VAT.

engineermike

Hi
Seems quite reasonable, and 30 hours sounds off the mark, 50 / 60 I'd say and niche area still demands reasonable fees these days.
In the absence of a structured fee proposal I'd be getting at least an hourly rate.
Ask for a breakdown of the invoice ?
mike f

Voodoomelon

sinnerboy wrote: »

So where is the illegallity ?

Just to be clear, I never said anything was illegal.

But the price was not give to me explicitly "ex VAT". I was just given a flat price, which was a percentage of my renovations budget.

VAT was never mentioned at all at any stage.

ted1

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Just to be clear, I never said anything was illegal.

But the price was not give to me explicitly "ex VAT". I was just given a flat price, which was a percentage of my renovations budget.

VAT was never mentioned at all at any stage.

It should not be charged as an extra. Your mad if you pay it. If they insist them Point them to the act I posted above.