Norman castles: anything distinctive about their architecture in Ireland?

Rebelheart

Anybody know the answer to this?

When, if at all, did distinctive aspects of Irish castles begin to emerge? Prior to that were they based upon Norman designs, or had an Anglo-Norman style developed that they were based upon?

The reason I ask is I'm reading somebody calling a castle in Ireland an "Anglo-Norman" castle, and I wonder was there a 'Hiberno-Norman" architecture at any stage? For that matter, if there was a genuinely "Anglo-Norman" architecture, in what ways did it differ from the designs found in Norman castles, and when did these changes occur in Britain?

crockholm

Many of the Irish Gael castles that we see today would be "towerhouses" from the 15th-17th century.

I cant really think of any unique features of an Irish castle per se, whereas, there is some distinction between Welsh/Scottish/English castles.

Possibly,the most unique aspect I can see, would be that castles were built in more defensive styles than those in Britain, where the castle morphed into "the big house" from the Elizabethan period onwards, I can only really think of Ormond House in Carrick-on-suir and Portumna Castle in co.Galway that have anything close to a late renaissance style that flourished in Britain. Jigginstown House in Naas could have been had it been completed.

LennoxR

Don't know either really but there's an articles on the subject here,

http://www.theirishstory.com/2011/09/13/the-castle-in-the-lordship-of-ireland-1177-1310/#.UWbhLqLvvTo

Gee Bag

Its a kind of tough question to answer. Castles are always pretty unique structures, their layout and style are primarily based on a mix of topography, function and of course budget. The Norman castles in Ireland incorporate design elements common to castles across Europe at this time. I dont think you could say there was a unique anglo/hiberno norman type castle that differed greatly from the rest of the Norman world (but I may be wrong).

The only example I can think of a contemporary Gaelic castle is Harry Averys castle in co. Tyrone.

The best general book on Irish castles ( and the most readily available) is David Sweetmans.

I'm typing this post on my phone and its driving me mental. I'll post something with a few links and references at the weekend

crockholm

I believe they differed significantly from the European castles in..

1) very few,castles in Ireland are rectangular format with round towers,(except Carlow and ferns and Nenagh, I think),this was to combat the effects of undermining, you could undermine the corners of a square tower and the tower may collapse,but not with a round tower, the enemies they faced in Ireland generally didn't have the knowledge of undermining and siege warfare that they did on the continent.

2)very little freestone used(think ashlar and other cut stone)in Irish castles, usually coarsely cut quoins and random rubble infill in between.

Neutronale

crockholm wrote: »

I believe they differed significantly from the European castles in..

1) very few,castles in Ireland are rectangular format with round towers,(except Carlow and ferns and Nenagh, I think),this was to combat the effects of undermining, you could undermine the corners of a square tower and the tower may collapse,but not with a round tower, the enemies they faced in Ireland generally didn't have the knowledge of undermining and siege warfare that they did on the continent.

2)very little freestone used(think ashlar and other cut stone)in Irish castles, usually coarsely cut quoins and random rubble infill in between.

Carrickfergus...

Neutronale

crockholm wrote: »

I believe they differed significantly from the European castles in..

1) very few,castles in Ireland are rectangular format with round towers,(except Carlow and ferns and Nenagh, I think),this was to combat the effects of undermining, you could undermine the corners of a square tower and the tower may collapse,but not with a round tower, the enemies they faced in Ireland generally didn't have the knowledge of undermining and siege warfare that they did on the continent.
.

Nevertheless, the Irish seemed to be able to combat the Normans at times...

...using strategically placed castles could also fail quite miserably. An example of this is John de Grey’s attempt in 1212 to push the boundaries of Meath thirty to forty kilometres in a north-westerly direction by a process of castle construction. He established castles at Clones, Co. Monaghan, Narrow Water, Co. Fermanagh and Belturbet, Co. Cavan.

However, in doing this he also came up against the most powerful Irish king of the time, Aedh O’Néill of Cenel Eoghain. O’Néill raised a force against him and within a year de Grey’s forces were pushed back and the castles he had built were burned.[7] Another example is the motte and bailey Hugh de Lacy built on the site of the present day Trim Castle.This was similarly attacked and burned in 1173 by Ruaidhri O’ Conchobhair.

http://www.theirishstory.com/2011/09/13/the-castle-in-the-lordship-of-ireland-1177-1310/#.UWlLyLXrxZB

Gee Bag

crockholm wrote: »

I believe they differed significantly from the European castles in..

1) very few,castles in Ireland are rectangular format with round towers,(except Carlow and ferns and Nenagh, I think)

From what I remember there are four of these castles of this type in Ireland; Carlow, Ferns, Terryglass (Co. Tipp) and Lea (Co. Laois). Nenagh castle has a cylindrical tower rather than the usual rectangle shaped structure. Interestingly enough the Irish examples of this type of castle pre-date their British equivalents by about a century.

Roscommon Castle is very similar in design to Harlech in North Wales. However, construction at Roscommon began at least three years earlier. The general concensus is that the same architect worked on both. It's quite probabale that most of the Norman castles in Ireland were designed and constructed by master builders and masons from Britain or France, hence the general similarity in design and features incorporated. However, due to the loss of Irish medieval records in the Civil War this is impossible to establish with certainty.

2)very little freestone used(think ashlar and other cut stone)in Irish castles, usually coarsely cut quoins and random rubble infill in between.

I'd take this to be more of a difference in construction technique than an actual differnce in design. Possibly due to the lack of experienced masons in Ireland as we did not have a tradition of building on this scale prior to the Norman conquest.

Neutronale wrote: »

Carrickfergus...

The structure with the rounded towers is the gate house rather than the castle proper.

Neutronale wrote: »

Nevertheless, the Irish seemed to be able to combat the Normans at times...

Many of the castles recorded as being attacked and burnt by the Irish were of earth and timber construction rather than the great stone castles which I am assuming the OP was refering to.

CIARAN_BOYLE

crockholm wrote: »

I believe they differed significantly from the European castles in..

1) very few,castles in Ireland are rectangular format with round towers,(except Carlow and ferns and Nenagh, I think),this was to combat the effects of undermining, you could undermine the corners of a square tower and the tower may collapse,but not with a round tower, the enemies they faced in Ireland generally didn't have the knowledge of undermining and siege warfare that they did on the continent.

2)very little freestone used(think ashlar and other cut stone)in Irish castles, usually coarsely cut quoins and random rubble infill in between.

Is that not a date issue?? Was it not a typical thing in 1100 to 1300s to move from square towers to round towers in castle construction as knowledge of siege warfare increased.

crockholm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Is that not a date issue?? Was it not a typical thing in 1100 to 1300s to move from square towers to round towers in castle construction as knowledge of siege warfare increased.

I'm not sure we have much evidence of mining being used to infiltrate castles in Ireland,hence we can see rectangular turrets and bastions still being used in Ireland whereas they had become obsolete or modified in Europe,the evolution of the star-shaped fort became widely used in Europe first in Italy and France in the 1500s, we see only a very basic form of this in Ireland at James Fort in Kinsale in the early 17th century.

crockholm

Gee Bag wrote: »

From what I remember there are four of these castles of this type in Ireland; Carlow, Ferns, Terryglass (Co. Tipp) and Lea (Co. Laois). Nenagh castle has a cylindrical tower rather than the usual rectangle shaped structure. Interestingly enough the Irish examples of this type of castle pre-date their British equivalents by about a century.

Roscommon Castle is very similar in design to Harlech in North Wales. However, construction at Roscommon began at least three years earlier. The general concensus is that the same architect worked on both. It's quite probabale that most of the Norman castles in Ireland were designed and constructed by master builders and masons from Britain or France, hence the general similarity in design and features incorporated. However, due to the loss of Irish medieval records in the Civil War this is impossible to establish with certainty.



I'd take this to be more of a difference in construction technique than an actual differnce in design. Possibly due to the lack of experienced masons in Ireland as we did not have a tradition of building on this scale prior to the Norman conquest.



The structure with the rounded towers is the gate house rather than the castle proper.



Many of the castles recorded as being attacked and burnt by the Irish were of earth and timber construction rather than the great stone castles which I am assuming the OP was refering to.

Not sure about Harlech, but possibly the most impressive of the Welsh castles ( along with Caernafon) Beaumarais was I believe constructed by French Master masons, I'm not sure if they worked in Ireland(prob not)but surely their English/Welsh apprentices did.

The lack of freestone used,even if it were just a portico or something is something common to Irish castles, I have seen very little ashlar masonry on anything pre 1650.:(

Maudi

If you look at battlements or the gaps in the top of castle walls that allow soldiers to reign arrows or whatever down on attackers then move to one side behind the battlements for cover..some irish castles have an extra block on each battlement.sort of like a head and shoulders shape.this feature is uniquely irish in castle building (from pat dargans wonderful book.irish castles)

Gee Bag

crockholm wrote: »

I'm not sure we have much evidence of mining being used to infiltrate castles in Ireland,hence we can see rectangular turrets and bastions still being used in Ireland whereas they had become obsolete or modified in Europe,the evolution of the star-shaped fort became widely used in Europe first in Italy and France in the 1500s, we see only a very basic form of this in Ireland at James Fort in Kinsale in the early 17th century.

I don't know of any examples of mining from the medieval period, but there was an attempt during the siege of Limerick to mine King John's castle during the Confederate Wars in 1641. This was undertaken because no siege artillery was available.
http://www.archaeologyuk.org/ba/ba71/feat1.shtml

James fort is the most spectacular example of a star shaped fort in Ireland. There are lots of other examples of star shaped forts in Ireland, but they are much smaller and were built from earth and timber.

Reekwind

While they wouldn't comprise a distinct type of their own, I'd suggest that there are two big deviations that distinguish Norman castles in Ireland from those in England or Normandy:

Architecturally, the castles in Ireland are just not particularly Romanesque. By the time of their construction the influences of this typically Norman style (which remained strong in England, Italy and even the Holy Land) was on the wane. Few Norman castles in Ireland have marked Romanesque trappings

Secondly, most of them are just not very good as fortifications. Unlike castles in the rest of the Norman world, the stone castles (the initial timber constructions at the time of being a different story) were intended primarily to indicate status and provide an administrative centre, rather than as fortifications and out of military necessity

crockholm

Gee Bag wrote: »

I don't know of any examples of mining from the medieval period, but there was an attempt during the siege of Limerick to mine King John's castle during the Confederate Wars in 1641. This was undertaken because no siege artillery was available.
http://www.archaeologyuk.org/ba/ba71/feat1.shtml

James fort is the most spectacular example of a star shaped fort in Ireland. There are lots of other examples of star shaped forts in Ireland, but they are much smaller and were built from earth and timber.

I would say it's neighbour, the later built Charles Fort would be our most spectacular star-shaped fort;)

crockholm

Maudi wrote: »

If you look at battlements or the gaps in the top of castle walls that allow soldiers to reign arrows or whatever down on attackers then move to one side behind the battlements for cover..some irish castles have an extra block on each battlement.sort of like a head and shoulders shape.this feature is uniquely irish in castle building (from pat dargans wonderful book.irish castles)

Well spotted! I must have a look at other crennellations when I'm near a castle next time, but just thinking about it now,within many Irish Castles , we have the "Halla Mor" seperate from the main tower,I'm sure that this can't be a distinctly Irish theme, I just can't recall seeing it outside of Ireland.