New to the Irish school system - could do with help

by the seaside

Hi there, am new here

My wife and I could do with some advice...

We are moving to the Dublin area for work from England, and have a four year old (just starting last term of UK 'Reception' year or school - completed two terms) and a two year old. My wife is from the West, and I'm English and we need to understand the complexities and particularly I think the difficulties around admission policies / space for admissions while choosing a place to live. I've had some great advice on this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056921482 around places to live, but mostly from non-parents, so I'm hoping you can help.

We are not looking to live in the big smoke and would like to be near the sea and have a candidate list of

- Skerries
- Malahide
- Portmarnock
- Donabate
- Blackrock
- Bray
- Greystones

While we'd be grateful for any specific advice on any of these areas, which might influence our choice, it would be great to hear a more general report of your experience. It is worth saying that while my wife is baptised / confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church and I am baptised in the Church of England (sister church of Church of Ireland), neither of us is religious, we had a civil wedding ceremony and our children are not baptised. Having said that, we are not hostile to religion or a religious educational system. My wife had a very positive experience being educated by the nuns, and I am positive about the religious (slightly austere protestant reading the bible starting at Genesis 1:1 and working forward) aspects of my education. We are also open to the idea of a Gaelscoil at least at primary level, although I'm worried I'd struggle helping with the homework - but I am good with languages so maybe I could learn.

Options (excluding fee paying) seem to me to be:

- RC NS
- CofI NS
- Educate Together / other multi-denominational
- Gaelscoil

Have I missed anything? It would be great to hear experience of pros and cons. Also, three major practical concerns are:

- Might we move to an area and find there are no school places nearby (what happens then, how do we check where there is availability before moving)?
- Will we find that admission policies in RC NS schools (which are the overwhelming majority) give preference to children baptised into RC church - is it the same for CofI schools (baptised into Anglican communion)?
- What is the variation in quality of schools and how do we find out about individual schools - people get very excited about different schools in England, but generally they're pretty good and there is a reasonably useful published rating system?

I think that's all but perhaps I've forgotten something important. Haven't even though about pre-school for the two year old yet, as it seems less pressing.

Thanks all in advance.

Grawns

My husband was raised Protestant in the uk and we were able to get our daughter into a very hard to get into Protestant ns. This is not an option for most Irish people so you are actually in a good position!

We also got our first choice, Gael scoil and I put her down as Protestant there. My husband has no Irish but was very supportive. Educate together are probably the hardest to get into.

They are all good places to live but very different from each other. I think you need to narrow your choice down a bit and you could do it based on schools in the area. There would be a lot more choice in black rock than donabate. Consider sutton and clontarf raheny too. I'd love to live there:)

by the seaside

Grawns wrote: »

My husband was raised Protestant in the uk and we were able to get our daughter into a very hard to get into Protestant ns. This is not an option for most Irish people so you are actually in a good position!

We also got our first choice, Gael scoil and I put her down as Protestant there. My husband has no Irish but was very supportive. Educate together are probably the hardest to get into.

They are all good places to live but very different from each other. I think you need to narrow your choice down a bit and you could do it based on schools in the area. There would be a lot more choice in black rock than donabate. Consider sutton and clontarf raheny too. I'd love to live there:)

Thanks for the reply and enouragement Grawns. I have a feeling that it's going to be tricky. Started doing some more in depth research - looked as an example at CofI NS <snip> admission policy (below). Looks like we are at them bottom of the list. Even though non-practising and indeed non-believing, I count as a member of the Church of England, which is in full communion with the Church of Irelnad, but that's not on the list - could be worth following up.

I guess it depends where schools have space that will determine where we live as the predominance of religious schools (and our unwillingness to baptise for the sake of manipulating an entry) and demands on Educate Together leaves us low priority. Have I got it right? Not the end of the world, but just better to know sooner than later.

snip.

Grawns

I would phone the school and ask them. You though and not your wife. If you're looking for a place for sept it might be too late but they should be able to tell you about 2014. We didn't live in the area and we are not church of Ireland. In fact I'm a big old atheist but am keen for any educational advantage for my child. Her dads not an atheist so we are not total hypocrites!

Have your story straight and don't put too much information as to names of schools on boards as this is a small country with a very small Protestant
Community

by the seaside

Grawns wrote: »

I would phone the school and ask them. You though and not your wife. If you're looking for a place for sept it might be too late but they should be able to tell you about 2014. We didn't live in the area and we are not church of Ireland. In fact I'm a big old atheist but am keen for any educational advantage for my child. Her dads not an atheist so we are not total hypocrites!

Have your story straight and don't put too much information as to names of schools on boards as this is a small country with a very small Protestant
Community

Thanks for the advice - will take it up and be more circumspect! 2014 is the kind of talk that scares me. My 4 year old is completing her first year of school. This term and one thing I know is that one way or another she will be going to a school in September.

Grawns

You don't want just any school though and the reality is that there aren't enough places in every district and often where there are places its in designated disadvantaged schools. You have to see your unique position as an advantage. Protestant schools are seen as elite in ireland in the same way catholic ones are in the uk. Contact every protestant school in your chosen areas asap and explain you're moving to Ireland and you need a place for your child that reflects your religious ethos! The schools all know each so they will be able to help you with other schools. Once you secure a place move to that district. Most schools are more enlightened about RE these days than when you or I went to school. My private catholic ns was a loony bin! Made me the atheist I am today :-)

I worked so hard to get my child into my local Gael school but I had plan b and c in place too, even baptism. Its hard, its confusing and its compromising for us atheists agnostics and non Catholics but you do what you have to!

Flier

Just a couple of points. In my experience, C of I (and Catholic) schools require proof of baptism or at the very least a letter from a senior member of your church to confirm that the child is indeed part of that church, to consider them as Protestant (or Catholic) for the purposes of enrollment. You have probably missed the cut off for applying for Sept 2013, so you would only be considered if there are free places (or for a waiting list if there are likely to be free places). Your 4 year old is quite young for 'senior infants' in the Irish system (roughly equivalent to Year 1) and many schools may not accept her - they would typically have 'cutoff' dates before April/May. Your best course of action is to phone / email the schools in the areas you are interested in and find out which ones have free places, and if she is eligible for senior infants, (or junior infants if you choose to hold her back).

Good Luck!

Grawns

I agree! I had my daughter baptised in a Protestant church. I wasn't taking any chances on my back up school.

by the seaside

Thanks both.

We will be calling round schools to see where there is space in Senior Infants in September and a willingness to accept a 'summer baby' who has completed a year of school. Is there any rating system to understand what is a 'good' school, or is it reputation and the vibe you get on a visit?

Interestingly, the view that Catholic schools are viewed as élite in England is a bit more nuanced in reality. It really depends on what the views are of the local non-church state schools. Where they are viewed negatively, parents are trying hard to get into Church of England and RC schools. Where we live, the non-church schools have an excellent reputation and the RC schools are the only under-subscribed schools.

Moonbeam

it is by reputation and vibe, there are no league tables in Ireland.

by the seaside

Moonbeam wrote: »

it is by reputation and vibe, there are no league tables in Ireland.

Thanks. We'll ask around. The league tables here aren't perfect but they're handy for knowing which are the terrible schools. Assuming there are no published inspection reports.

Moonbeam

In general we tend to have pretty good schools in Ireland.
underfunded but good.

scaryfairy

by the seaside wrote: »

Thanks. We'll ask around. The league tables here aren't perfect but they're handy for knowing which are the terrible schools. Assuming there are no published inspection reports.

hi

I came across inspection reports when looking at schools - they are published here
(just to note I live close to Blackrock and it's lovely - safe, beautiful and relatively close to town... And pricey to buy... but otherwise would highly recommend it). good luck with your seach

by the seaside

scaryfairy wrote: »

hi

I came across inspection reports when looking at schools - they are published here
(just to note I live close to Blackrock and it's lovely - safe, beautiful and relatively close to town... And pricey to buy... but otherwise would highly recommend it). good luck with your seach

Thanks very much. I find inspections don't tell the whole story but they're a great indicator of serious problems - great find.

Peregrinus

1. I wouldn't say that the perception that "Protestant" = "better" is universal.

2. Although schools under Protestant management have, and exercise, the same right as schools under Catholic management to prefer applicants from the relevant religious background, it can nevertheless be (relatively) easier to get into Protestant schools if you are not of that background. The reason is that Protestant schools tend to be smaller, and they are keen to keep their enrolments up to maintain viablity, etc. Thus, after having admitted all the applicants from a Protestant background, they are more likely to have spaces over for others.

3. But these are generalisations. Everything depends on the particular school.

by the seaside

Peregrinus wrote: »

1. I wouldn't say that the perception that "Protestant" = "better" is universal.

2. Although schools under Protestant management have, and exercise, the same right as schools under Catholic management to prefer applicants from the relevant religious background, it can nevertheless be (relatively) easier to get into Protestant schools if you are not of that background. The reason is that Protestant schools tend to be smaller, and they are keen to keep their enrolments up to maintain viablity, etc. Thus, after having admitted all the applicants from a Protestant background, they are more likely to have spaces over for others.

3. But these are generalisations. Everything depends on the particular school.

Thanks, as I said, we're pretty open minded as to ethos. A bit of religious education never harmed anyone. Even in our English non-church state school, they are 'teamed up' with the local Baptist church, and the delightful minister comes along at Harvest festival etc. to give a bit of a religious background but also a wider ethical sweep of related global issues. We hear plenty about Jesus and God at home from our little girl, and that is part of growing up in a diverse society.

Useful, though, to get tips on the 'tactics' of getting into a school.

It looks as if different rules apply if transferring from a different school because of moving into the area, at post-junior infants (and there seem to be plenty of schools who would accept her date of birth as eligible for senior infants in Sept 2013), so it may be easier than we thought - space depending... Any experience out there on getting into schools post-junior infants after moving into an area?

Miss Lockhart

Personally I think the idea that Protestant schools are considered elite in ireland is completely unfounded.

Private schools are often considered elite and many Protestant schools are private, but I don't think it's accurate to say they are held in higher regard than others when comparing like with like.

The non-private Protestant schools with which I am familiar are ones I would avoid at all costs on the grounds of both poor academic record and lack of resources and facilities. This idea of ordinary Protestant schools being seen as superior in general is certainly alien to me. And neither am I familiar with a trend of Protestant private schools being seen as superior to other private schools.

Regarding entry requirements, I have come across more Protestant primary schools insisting on baptism in a faith for enrollment. This is unusual in the Catholic sector unless over subscribed and is something to bear in mind.