Margaret Thatcher remembered

jonniebgood1

First things first with the death of Margaret Thatcher, it could be expected that people would come forward with gushing praise as is the way in this world when someone dies. From first impressions of the media reaction however it seems that she is not getting this usual 100 per cent praise, much the contrary seems to be the case.

This thread is intended to discuss some of the memories people may have of Mrs. Thatcher, some of her achievements or crimes (depending on ones perspective). It is not a place for Brit-bashing or personalised criticism given that the woman has just passed on.

My opinion on her is that she was a negative figure in many ways. In relation to this country it would seem to me that she prolonged the troubles for a decade more than ought to have been the case. A more conciliatory leader could have done in the early 1980's what happened in the 90's. Instead she became the single most powerful recruitment device of the PIRA in the 1980's.

Leaving dealings with Ireland aside I am interested in her actions in relation to the Falklands. War was again not the only option in this case and many young British men lost their lives carrying through her war (I make the distinction of British men as they were citizens of the country she lead much as people distinguish other 20th century leaders who lightly sacrificed their own countrymen). Of course she went on to win the next election on the back of this sacrifice. Sometimes there are more reason for the lady not 'turning' than the strong will that this stance was patronisingly attributed to.

Any views positive or negative?

kravmaga

I never took to the woman to be honest. Wont be missed in my opinion.

She hammered the working classes in the UK and did little for them.

She was a very intelligent woman but also a very complex character.

Not known either for her conflict resolution skills wrt Northern Ireland or The Malvinas Island crisis in 1982.

The UK Police liked her as she gave the first major payrise to all UK POLICE FORCES IN 1979 and a lot of Officers from The Met paid off their mortgagaes with overtime duties during the Miners strike in 1983/1984.

What I will say on a positive note is that she stuck by her guns when she make hard decision's on issues which affected the British economy in the late 1970's and 1980's. Privatisation of British Telecom and British rail.

It was her own colleagues who turned on her in the end in 1987 after a difficult conference in Italy.

I worked in the UK for many years and a lot of people I met and worked with admired her for her stance on certain issues but disliked her as a person.

the_syco

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Leaving dealings with Ireland aside I am interested in her actions in relation to the Falklands.

I think that without the Falklands, she would've disappeared into the abyss of time?

donaghs

the_syco wrote: »

I think that without the Falklands, she would've disappeared into the abyss of time?

That's very true. Unemployment was worse in the early Thatcher years than under Labour in the 70s.
However, looking at Labour's record in the 70s with inflation, massive deficits, the IMF, unions on strike constantly and unions walking into Downing street and getting their way - people of various shades of opinion were willing to try an alternative in 1979. Once the economy took off, most people were happier with this alternative.

A2LUE42

The Miners strike would be one of my strongest memories, how different it might have been if the Miners had better leaders.

Jawgap

the_syco wrote: »

I think that without the Falklands, she would've disappeared into the abyss of time?

A few years ago we had a discussion on the MA I was doing about Thatcher - the question was could she have beaten the miners, if she had not succeeded in the Falklands? The general consensus was, no - but others may disagree.

On a personal note, I lived in the UK through the final two years of her premiership, then through Major, Blair and part of Brown. She was incredibly divisive - on the one hand she did create a kind of economy or society where certain people could prosper who would ordinarily not have had the opportunity.......on the other she destroyed the country's heavy manufacturing base for political rather than economic or social reasons.

Even leaving aside, her attitude to Ireland, I still think she was a nasty piece of work who mis-used her undoubted talent and strong personality.

Fratton Fred

She made Britain competitive again on the world stage and was instrumental in bringing in foreign investment such as Toyota and Nissan, yet she also had a shameful relationship with Pinochet.

She was very good and very bad at the same time.

Some of us remember the black outs of the 70s and imho she was right to address the problems with dominant unions, but her refusal to bring in sanctions against apartheid were wrong.

Like many others, I think her handling of the Falklands was on the money, but her handling of welfare was too much too quick.

Jawgap

She was definitely right to take on the unions - and there could / would have been no investment into the country on the scale of Nissan and Toyota if the unions were not contained.

I think she (or her administration) then moved beyond that and 'bearded the beast in its lair' - which is to say they sought to destroy or severely curtail the heavy industries where those unions were strong, rather than reform them, but mabe they were beyond redemption.

Don't forget the poll tax - it's interesting to contrast the response to the introduction of that tax, into a country with a tradition of paying local taxes, against the introduction of a household tax here, where we haven't paid local taxes for a couple of generations.......

Fratton Fred

Jawgap wrote: »

She was definitely right to take on the unions - and there could / would have been no investment into the country on the scale of Nissan and Toyota if the unions were not contained.

I think she (or her administration) then moved beyond that and 'bearded the beast in its lair' - which is to say they sought to destroy or severely curtail the heavy industries where those unions were strong, rather than reform them, but mabe they were beyond redemption.

Don't forget the poll tax - it's interesting to contrast the response to the introduction of that tax, into a country with a tradition of paying local taxes, against the introduction of a household tax here, where we haven't paid local taxes for a couple of generations.......

I had moved to Maidenhead by the time the polltax came out, which is a true blue conservative stronghold, but even there the traditional conservative voting people were out demonstrating.

The rates were unfair and needed to be changed, no one would deny that, but the initial polltax was too much of a change and hit the average family too hard, after years of cutbacks and recession. It was the straw that finally broke the camel's back.

Hidalgo

A massively divisive figure.
For some, one of her strongest points was how she stuck unwaveringly to her guns unlike many other politicians accused of 'flip flopping'. in politics however, its a game of give and take. The again from her perspective, decisions like NI and the Falklands were war time decisions which lessened the potential to negotiate.

It's understandable why she's such a hate figure in Welsh mining towns, and industrial cities in the North of England. Their livelihoods were destroyed and telling an out of work miner that it was necessary for the good of the nation wasn't really going to do much for him.

I'm a bit surprised there hasn't been more fawning over her yesterday and today, that's the norm in the immediate aftermath of a death of such a high figure

who the fug

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I had moved to Maidenhead by the time the polltax came out, which is a true blue conservative stronghold, but even there the traditional conservative voting people were out demonstrating.

The rates were unfair and needed to be changed, no one would deny that, but the initial polltax was too much of a change and hit the average family too hard, after years of cutbacks and recession. It was the straw that finally broke the camel's back.

Should have done what I did, bounce between Brent and Lambert Councils so they could never get me name of the bill.

The theory was brilliant the actuality of it was horrendous; think I calculated if I paid it would be 10% of my gross salary.

donaghs

Worth noting perhaps with all this talk of Thatcher and Northern Ireland, that her policy on Northern Ireland wasn't that different from her predecessor?

May need to read up on this stuff again, so could be a little off. But two differences come to mind:
(1) Callaghan himself didn't act tough on NI but was happy to let is Sec. of State Roy Mason be very tough on the IRA.
(2) Callaghan and Mason didn't have to deal with the 1981 hunger strikes, so we don't know what they would have done.

twowheelsonly

As far as I'm concerned she was too strongly opinionated and things tended to be 'My way or no way' which is what alienated her from so many people and ultimately led to her resignation.

My abiding memory of her was when her son, Mark, was missing in the Sahara and she suddenly appeared as the vulnerable upset mother, as all mothers would, and won a lot of sympathy.
Six months previously though she all but dismissed Bobby Sands mother with her Terrorist speech as Mrs Sands begged her to do something to help save her son and the other Hunger Strikers lives.

GRMA

She made a bags of the hungerstrikes and Ireland in general... won't be missed, shame she got lucky in Brighton, countless people would have been better off without the cancer which was Thatcher

Jolly Red Giant

A2LUE42 wrote: »

The Miners strike would be one of my strongest memories, how different it might have been if the Miners had better leaders.

The leaders of the NUM were committed, well organised and operated in the interests of their members. The NUM was probably the most democratic trade union in Britain at that time and had a tradition of being a very democratic union.

The defeat of the Miners strike can be laid firmly at the door of Kinnock and the leadership of the TUC. If the TUC had called a general strike (and it would only have taken a few days) or even backed solidarity action by the power workers (who want to strike in support of the miners) then Thatcher and the Tories would have been out on their ears in 1984.

Fratton Fred

GRMA wrote: »

She made a bags of the hungerstrikes and Ireland in general... won't be missed, shame she got lucky in Brighton, countless people would have been better off without the cancer which was Thatcher

Well, she certainly played right in to Gerry's hands over the hungerstrike, Gerry proved that he was even more willing to sacrifice lives than Maggie, but we already knew that didn't we.

Fratton Fred

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

The leaders of the NUM were committed, well organised and operated in the interests of their members. The NUM was probably the most democratic trade union in Britain at that time and had a tradition of being a very democratic union.

The defeat of the Miners strike can be laid firmly at the door of Kinnock and the leadership of the TUC. If the TUC had called a general strike (and it would only have taken a few days) or even backed solidarity action by the power workers (who want to strike in support of the miners) then Thatcher and the Tories would have been out on their ears in 1984.

And the imf back in 1985

Jawgap

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

The leaders of the NUM were committed, well organised and operated in the interests of their members. The NUM was probably the most democratic trade union in Britain at that time and had a tradition of being a very democratic union.

I hold myself open to correction on this, but didn't Scargill call the strike without balloting the membership?

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

The defeat of the Miners strike can be laid firmly at the door of Kinnock and the leadership of the TUC. If the TUC had called a general strike (and it would only have taken a few days) or even backed solidarity action by the power workers (who want to strike in support of the miners) then Thatcher and the Tories would have been out on their ears in 1984

I'm not sure it was that simple. Whatever Kinnock and the Labour Party did it was not going to work out well for them. If they supported the strike, there was a danger they could be perceived as supporting the tactics used by some elements of the NUM, and if they endorsed the government and Thatcher's handling of it, they'd be abandoning their natural supporters.

Kinnock and the Labour leadership, if I remember, did criticise the more violent aspects of the dispute, perpetrated by both protesters and police, and the Murdoch media only highlighted his criticism of the strikers!

Scargill also thought the TUC were a bit wet and said, at the outset, he wanted no help from them - he also suggested, in the best tradition of 'war' time leadership, that the strike would be done by Christmas!