designer dogs & breeders

comanche_cor

I get the feeling that I am going to get roasted here for asking these questions- so please understand that I am asking these questions just to further my understanding of dog breeding.

So, here goes. How come serious dog breeder are against designer dogs - the likes of the labradoodle & the cockapoo etc? I can certainly understand and agree with the objections that people have against the unscrupulous dog breeders that are out there and the terrible conditions that some of these unscrupulous breeders bring their dogs up in. However, from the other side I get the impression that serious breeders just feel that these breeding these dogs is dangerous given that these dogs may have health/behavioural issues. So here are my questions:

- Is it not the case that selective breeding of pure breeds cause health issues?

- Is it not the case that the current recognized breeds today are formed from cross breds (e.g. the St. Bernard was cross bred from strong dogs)?

- If people who are serious about dogs want to eliminate the puppy farms etc why not breed the dogs these cross breeds that people want? (I understand that dog shelters are over run - but the fact is that people are buying puppies).

Thanks..

You are completely right. But i cant answer your question. You would need one of these people you speak of to answer it.

ISDW

is it only serious dog breeders that you want to answer the questions, or any API posters? Not sure what you mean by serious dog breeders though tbh. I know the written word can come across harshly, I don't mean it be so, just asking

comanche_cor

Thanks for the replies...

No I don't mind who answers - I am just looking to get other people perspective on this. As a family we are looking to add a dog to our family soon and I would like to make the right decision so I am trying to do my research and find out what I can (btw despite the title we are not looking at a designer dog per say ... still trying to figure out what type of dog would suit our family most atm).

WRT to serious dog breeders - I guess that I mean the ones that you need to get in touch with via the Irish kennel club. I suppose another question is are there 'ethical' breeders that are not part of the kennel clubs?

Nody

But by your own definition they can't be a serious dog breeder as it is not a recognised race mix (and hence can't be registered by IKC etc.) so why would they breed them? A mongrel is a mongrel is a mongrel; there's no specific reason to make a "designer dog" because there's no design really going into it all; the traits are much more dependent on upbringing and any mongrel would do that for. In terms of hair length etc. you're having a huge gamble to try to get the "perfect" combos which are rare as well so once again why would not a general mongrel mix with the right type of hair work instead? So that leaves it down to working dogs (pure breed), show dogs (pure breeds or any mongrel combo) and people's fancies of what's popular (and usually based off rumours rather then reality).

Also to note a "serious breeder" does not breed dogs to sell them; they bred dogs to improve use them for work/showing and/or to improve the over all genetical mix and this is usually a loss making effort. The people who tend to bred to sell what's popular are exactly the once you claim not to want to support; the back yard breeding pupply farms.

ISDW

OK I'm not a breeder but, yes you are right, all breeds started off as crossbreeds, in fact some breeds now have outcrossing programmes, to try and get over some of the health issues that are now in that breed.

I think regarding the designer breeds, you have to ask yourself why they are being bred, is it to better the breeds in the cross, or to make money? Are the breeders who are doing the crossing carrying out the genetic health tests for both breeds and researching the lines etc, to try and get the healthiest pups possible? Do they have an intention of trying to get KC recognition for the new breed?

There are some people who are crossbreeding to try to create new recognised breeds, my own knowledge would be about the northern inuits, tamaskans etc. some people wanted a wolf looking dog, but without the traits of a wolf, or of the dogs traditionally wolf-looking, such as huskies and malamutes. So they are crossbreeding, and keeping records within their breed clubs. I won't go into the politics of it all, as there is rather a lot :rolleyes: but they have their own register, dogs have to have genetic health testing done, and attain certain scores before their progeny can be registered with the clubs. Their aim is to get Kennel club recognition, but this will take 20-30 years of breeding and record keeping at least. Most reputable husky and GSD breeders (the main two breeds they are crossing) will not allow them to use their dogs in this programme, so perhaps they aren't getting the best of the breeds to use to create the new breed, that is very much open to debate.

So I would say that actually, yes, there may well be reputable breeders who are breeding non IKC registered dogs (in fact a lot of the working dogs in ireland may not be IKC registered, but the breeders certainly know their lines and what they are doing and are always looking to better the dogs they have). If the breeder is doing the relevant genetic tests, has a proper puppy contract with each dog sold, whereby they will take back any dog they breed throughout its life, and they are willing to offer advice to owners of their dogs, again, for the life of the dog, then I would consider them to be a reputable breeder.

comanche_cor

ok thanks for the information - so it appears that there is a middle ground between the kennel clubs and the puppy farms? But this is what confuses me if the kennel club has no interest in breeding dogs for sale but only for show and most people who are selling are looking to make a buck at the expense of the dogs does this middle ground really exist, where does one find this middle ground - I am extremely hesitant to use the likes of donedeal / gumtree as in 99% of the case I get the feeling that the pups are from puppy farms. Perhaps I am wrong?

I suppose wrt to cross breeds I guess that the popularity of some has in my mind legitimized their existence - e.g. labra/golden doodles being used with special needs children, cockapoos apparently haven been bred in the US since the 60s. However, I have read negatives things about people selling these designer dogs and I am wondering what the actual story is with them. I am just trying to figure out what is misinformation and what is fact. ISDW - you have given me a lot of information there - thanks.

I guess after a bit more information my two questions boil down to:
- where can you find a reputable source for a dog in Ireland
- its it madness to consider a cross breed, would a reputable source breed one of these dogs

TooManyDogs

Like ISDW said I think it very much depends on the WHY of the crossbreeding. To me the term 'designer dogs' kind of says it all, in my head when I think of designer brands of anything I think of form over function, so they look pretty but often at the expense of how well they work. These designer dogs often suffer the same, they look really cute, have cute names but are they going to have an illness free life? (I realise 'illness free' can be relative and there are plenty of stories of healthy pedigrees and very ill mongrels)

So these designer breeds, one of the first thing I'd be looking at is if they are involved in a program like ISDW mentioned. Are they crossbreeding with one of the breeds that was a fundamental corner stone of the breed when it was being developed? Has the breeder chosen the 2 breeds because of their complementary genetics or to try and eradicate a particular illness? What purpose are they crossbreeding for?

And then there's the usual questions to be asked to figure out what kind of breeders they are, how many litters per year, how many different breeds do they breed, what health tests are done, are the pups reared with the family etc etc

ISDW

Reputable, IKC registered breeders don't breed for show, they use shows to validate their breedings perhaps but they breed to better the breed. The only way they can really see if that is working I guess, in non working dogs, is by showing them at the highest level, and letting breed specialist judges look the dogs over, and give an opinion on whether the dog is a great example of the breed or not. To breed properly costs money, with all the health testing, sire fees, vet and feed cost for the bitch and pups etc, there is no profit to be made. That doesn't unfortunately mean that people who breed and show are all reputable, responsible breeders, thats where the real difficulty lies I think, for puppy buyers. How do you know? I think its probably only from research, research and research, going to shows and/or working events, talking to lots of people, seeing different dogs and people, and making your own mind up. Its still subjective though, the breeder that I think is fantastic, and does everything right, others may disagree. it a minefield unfortunately. The breed clubs should be your first port of call. the good breeders, breed for themselves, but usually can't keep the whole litter, so will sell pups, thats where you can get your pup from.

I think (and I may be wrong in this) that the IKC doesn't have an assured breeder scheme like the KC in the UK does, which is a real shame. To be part of that scheme you have to adhere to certain standards, and are inspected, hopefully it will come in here.

Nothing wrong with crossbreeds at all, just don't pay a fortune for one when you can get one from the local pound, shelter or your neighbour.

comanche_cor

Thank for all the info - has been really help full. Looks like I have a bit of work ahead of me to try and find the new addition to the family.

The reason that I was asking about cross-breeds/designer dogs was really down to meeting a cockerpoo in the flesh. I met one last week and it had a really great temperament. We had been trying to narrow down a breed with my wife and daughter thinking that a poodle (not toy) would be a good choice where I was leaning towards a cocker spaniel. I had never heard of a cockerpoo before and this seemed to be a win-win before I started to google and ask all these question. So thank you all for your information ... looks like the hunt for a poddle begins!

Knine

Certain designer breeds being better for kids with special needs is a myth. This is a myth I see a lot.

Many breeds with the right training and socialisation can make a great addition to the life of a child with special needs. There is no one breed thst is better then another. It is most important that the dog suits the whole families lifestyle and the individual child as no two children are the same.

My own child has disabilities which affect all areas of her life. She absolutely loves dogs. I have several different breeds. Always there has to be loads of supervision. She has a favourite though and the dog in question follows her around.

In regards to breeding a major difference is the lenghts I travel to find a suitable stud dog to Complement my bitch. I also show and have my dogs graded, health tests done. This all costs a lot of money. I don't just pick a dog who happens to be the same breed. I spend time looking at bloodlines and go to see previous pups the sire has produced.

New owners get comprehensive puppy packs and lifetime of support. They can come back to have their dogs groomed. I'm a committe club member. These are a world apart from your back yard breeder.

comanche_cor

Knine wrote: »

I'm a committe club member.

Thank Knine - what exactly is a committee club member and how is this related to the IKC?

Knine

comanche_cor wrote: »

Thank Knine - what exactly is a committee club member and how is this related to the IKC?

It means that I'm part of a club affiliated to ( recognised) by the IKC.

Along with other club members we work together to promote the best interests of the breed.

It is important to note that there can be a waiting list for puppies from a reputable breeder.

As mentioned above not every IKC reg dog is produced by reputable breeders hence contacting the Club Secretary is a good idea.

fatmammycat

comanche_cor wrote: »

Thank for all the info - has been really help full. Looks like I have a bit of work ahead of me to try and find the new addition to the family.

The reason that I was asking about cross-breeds/designer dogs was really down to meeting a cockerpoo in the flesh. I met one last week and it had a really great temperament. We had been trying to narrow down a breed with my wife and daughter thinking that a poodle (not toy) would be a good choice where I was leaning towards a cocker spaniel. I had never heard of a cockerpoo before and this seemed to be a win-win before I started to google and ask all these question. So thank you all for your information ... looks like the hunt for a poddle begins!

You know, just because one dog of any breed had a nice temperament does not automatically mean that breed of dog is of sound temperament. Some temperament is innate, but a lot is based on how the dog has been raised and socialised. The big fear on a designer breed would be, apart from health reasons, that said pup had no chance to be part of a family or had any interaction with people from birth- as is often the case with puppy farmed dogs. If you had met me last week you'd think German Shepherds have fantastic temperament and would be well suited for a family home ( as I do) but equally you could have met a fearful or aggressive shepherd and run a mile from the breed.


Essentially I'm trying to say be careful where and from whom you source your pup and don't base anything on one dog you have met. They're a 10/15 year commitment and it is worth doing careful research and always ask a ton of questions. Make sure you see the parents of any dog you like, don't be afraid to walk away if your gut tells you all is not well.