Insurance puzzle

kellyj77

Can someone help me out. If my mum is a fully comp driver, can she drive my car if I have no open drive on my own insurance?

Atlantic Dawn

She will need to check her policy, it usually states driving of other cars provided you don't own them. If this isn't states she can't drive it.

Just remember that if she is covered it will be 3rd party only on your car, not full comp like when she is driving her own.

Supergurrier

Totally dependant on the small print in both policies.

For instance i can drive any vehicle at work below a HGV but thats only because of works insurance policy

kellyj77

OK so there is a chance others can drive my car even though I don't have open drive? I though open drive meant noone else could drive your car. Does it simply mean others are not insured to drive your car but can do so providing their insurance policy allows them to drive other cars?

CiniO

kellyj77 wrote: »

Can someone help me out. If my mum is a fully comp driver, can she drive my car if I have no open drive on my own insurance?

If her policy covers her to drive other cars third party (so called "third party extension" or "driving other cars" extension) then she can, but remember that in case she causes an accident, then no one will pay for damage to your car (only third party loss will be covered).

CiniO

Supergurrier wrote: »

Totally dependant on the small print in both policies.

I can't really see what relevance is small print in OP policy...
OP's policy surely doesn't cover her mother, so only her mother's policy matters here.

kellyj77

so what is the significance of open drive then if others can still drive your car even if you said no to open drive initially in your policy?

Alanstrainor

kellyj77 wrote: »

so what is the significance of open drive then if others can still drive your car even if you said no to open drive initially in your policy?

They can only drive your car, if they have insurance in their own name which covers them to do so. A lot of people do not have this, which is where open drive would come into play.

CiniO

kellyj77 wrote: »

OK so there is a chance others can drive my car even though I don't have open drive?

If you don't have "open drive" on your policy, that means that your policy only covers your and named drivers on your policy - no one else.

But it doesn't meant that someone's elses policy might not cover that person to drive your car.

I though open drive meant noone else could drive your car. Does it simply mean others are not insured to drive your car but can do so providing their insurance policy allows them to drive other cars?

If their policy allows them to drive other cars, then it meant they can drive them.
You policy doesn't really change anything here, unless that person's policy states that "driving other cars" extension is valid only if owner has his/her own insurance on that perticular car, which is rare.

CiniO

kellyj77 wrote: »

so what is the significance of open drive then if others can still drive your car even if you said no to open drive initially in your policy?

There is a huge difference really.
If you have "open drive" it means that your policy covers other people to drive your car.
If you don't have it, and don't have anyone as named driver, only option for a person to drive your car, is that their own policy covers them to drive other cars which they don't own.

kellyj77

say i did have open drive and the other person was allowed to drive other cars per their policy and that person was involved in a crash in my car, whos insurance would take the hit?

CiniO

kellyj77 wrote: »

say i did have open drive and the other person was allowed to drive other cars per their policy and that person was involved in a crash in my car, whos insurance would take the hit?

Assume it would be that person's fault.
Then most likely the other person't policy would pay for damage caused to third party (but it depends on exact rules of the policies), while your policy would pay for damage to your car. So NCB lost on both policies.

kellyj77

thanks very much.

so to clarify,my idea that no open drive totally ruled out anyone from driving your car regardless of their policy conditions is incorrect and providing it states in their conditions they can drive other cars, they can in fact do so with a car which has no open drive?

CiniO

kellyj77 wrote: »

thanks very much.

so to clarify,my idea that no open drive totally ruled out anyone from driving your car regardless of their policy conditions is incorrect and providing it states in their conditions they can drive other cars, they can in fact do so with a car which has no open drive?

Of course they can.
Even if you didn't have any policy and your car wouldn't be insured at all, in most cases other person having a policy allowing for "driving other cars" would be able to drive your car legally,.

flyguy

Just as a addition, there are a few policies around that insure you to drive other cars under the same cover as your own, as in my case fully comp, so it's not always 3rd party only.

kellyj77

i read that one loop hole of this 'drive other cars' is that the other car must have valid insurance itself, is this true?

flyguy

Yeah I thought that too, don't think what CiniO wrote earlier (no insurance on car but cover through "driving other cars") is correct.

kellyj77

now im totally confused as to whether they can drive it or nt

CiniO

kellyj77 wrote: »

i read that one loop hole of this 'drive other cars' is that the other car must have valid insurance itself, is this true?

Someone mentioned few times on this forum, that some insurers put such requirement to "driving other cars" extension.

However I haven't encountered a policy like this yet.

So in majority of cases car owners's insurance on the car driver using "driving other cars" is completely irrelevant.

CiniO

flyguy wrote: »

Yeah I thought that too, don't think what CiniO wrote earlier (no insurance on car but cover through "driving other cars") is correct.

Example from Allianz Policy.

Endorsement No 4 – Driving other Cars
We will insure You in respect of legal liability, as provided under Section 1 (Third Party
Insurance) whilst You are driving another Private Car, provided such Private Car:
1. Does not belong to You or Your employer.
2. Is not hired or leased to either of the parties described above under a Hire Purchase or
Leasing Agreement.
3. Is not the property of or in the custody or control of a Motor Trade business of which
You are a director, member or employee.
Cover under this Endorsement is limited to use within Ireland and the United Kingdom only

As you can see, there is no requirement for other car to be insured by the owner.

flyguy

kellyj77 wrote: »

now im totally confused as to whether they can drive it or nt

If you have open drive insurance, anyone can drive your car and are insured on the same terms/cover as you are regardless if the have a car/insurance themselves. Don't think many people have open drive in the silly irish/uk insurance system as I guess it would be quite expensive (it's the norm in loads of other countries).
If you have insurance on your car in your name then people who have insurance on their own car which covers them to drive other cars will be insured (on their own insurance) to drive your car as well (cover depends on their insurance). So in your case your mother needs to check if her policy covers her to drive other cars, if it does your sorted.

CiniO

kellyj77 wrote: »

now im totally confused as to whether they can drive it or nt

One thing is for sure.
You only need "open drive" if you want your policy to cover everyone to drive your car. (and it still won't be really everyone, as open drive always has some terms&conditions limiting it anyway - f.e. only over 25 years old, with up to 4 penalty points, or sth like that.

CiniO

flyguy wrote: »

If you have open drive insurance, anyone can drive your car and are insured on the same terms/cover as you are regardless if the have a car/insurance themselves. Don't think many people have open drive in the silly irish/uk insurance system as I guess it would be quite expensive (it's the norm in loads of other countries).
If you have insurance on your car in your name then people who have insurance on their own car which covers them to drive other cars will be insured (on their own insurance) to drive your car as well (cover depends on their insurance).

Could you show a single example of policy with requirement for the car being driven on "driving other cars" extension to be insured by the owner?

flyguy

No I can't, as you can see from my post I'm not 100% sure on this one, but it doesn't seem to be an unreasonable demand so I thought I might apply. I'm referring to my earlier post. The one you're quoting from is just an explanation of the 2 options the OP is dealing with (as he already stated he has insurance).

kellyj77

i looked at my policy and i assume this is the part corresponding to 'open drive':

Additional personal accident cover for injury to other drivers driving the Insured Car
Additional personal accident cover for injury to the policyholder in any motor accident
Not Applicable
Not Applicable

so it says other people are not allowed to drive my car, which i assume is on my policy?

however i assume that if they per their policy are insured to drive other cars then they are fine to do so in my car?

kellyj77

where could i find the equivalent terms for AXA as you have there for Allianz regarding the other car driving

im invisible

kellyj77 wrote: »

now im totally confused as to whether they can drive it or nt

welcome to boards...

:pac:

flyguy

AXA car insurance policy:

This cover will also apply if you are driving any other car which your certificate of insurance covers you to drive. If you are covered to drive other cars it will be show in section 5(b) of your certificate of insurance. This cover only applies if:
1. You do not own the car or you have not hired the car under a hire purchase agreement.
2. It is shown that this cover applies under section 5 (b) of your certificate of insurance
3. You have the owner’s permission to drive the car
4. The vehicle is being used within the limits for use shown in your current certificate of motor insurance.


Just googled them so don't blame me if they're incorrect, you also have to check the policy (your mother's, not yours) to see if it's actually included.
BTW, you can always add your mother as a named driver on your policy, it might even make your policy cheaper...

corktina

the old "others can only drive my car on their policy if I have insurance on my car" fallacy again.!

The confusion on this arises as sometimes it is stipulated that IF the car is insured by it's owner for others to drive it, that policy takes precedence in a claim.

If your policy stipulates you can drive other cars under it, then it doesn't matter a fig whether the owner of that other car has it insured. You have the minimum cover for Road Traffic Act purposes under the third party extension to drive any other car within the terms of your policy

October

Ring your insurance company/broker and ask them for the answers to your questions. That way you will know for sure exactly how your policy operates.

djimi

kellyj77 wrote: »

so it says other people are not allowed to drive my car, which i assume is on my policy?

however i assume that if they per their policy are insured to drive other cars then they are fine to do so in my car?

The wording of your policy means that noone else will be covered by your policy if they drive your car. Anyone other than you who is driving your car will be either covered by their own policy, or will be uninsured.

You dont have open drive, so the only relevant check you need to make is of your mothers policy. The first thing that she needs to check is whether he policy covers her to drive other vehicles (most fully comp policies will have some form of third party extension cover at least). The next thing to check is whether or not there are any restrictions to the type of vehicle the third party extension covers (I have heard of some excluding cars over a certain size, performance cars etc). Lastly, she needs to check if there are any restrictions on whos car she is covered to drive; there might be something in there to say that she is not covered to drive a car registered to a spouce/immediate family member.

If in doubt, get her to ring her insurer and they will be able to clarify things for her. But the important thing to note is that only her policy is relevant; yours has absolutely nothing to do with it.

CiniO

October wrote: »

Ring your insurance company/broker and ask them for the answers to your questions. That way you will know for sure exactly how your policy operates.

I'm sure that she will be even more confused after talking to her insurer.
Information in this thread seem to be very accurate and consistent comparing to answers you usually get from insurers phone helplines.

I tries it many times. You ring your insurer and person you are talking to says that correct answer to your question is A. Then you ring again 5 minutes later, and other person tells you that correct answer is B.
Next day you ring again with the same question, and yet another person tells you it's C.

I stopped ringing insurers with any question, as it just doesn't make any sense.

In most cases policy (the written document they provide) together with your insurance schedule and cert tells 99% of info you need.
If there is any doubt, the best way is the get answer from them in writing (email I suppose is enough).
But still I'm sure that if their answer doesn't suit you, then you can email the same question again and get opposite answer which will suit you.
THen you can keep the second email

djimi

In fairness if you are getting two different answers to a question like this from your insurer then you need to make a complaint and persue the matter further. If they cant properly explain third party extension to you then there is something very wrong with how they operate.

Also, you interpreting your policy incorrectly puts you in no better a legal standing than if they give you the wrong information over the phone. At least if you say say that you were speaking with Mary at 12.30 on Friday 5th April and she said XYZ then you have some case. Even better if you can get it in some form of writing.

kellyj77

Thanks very much. I rang up today and AXA confirmed that another person can drive my car once they themselves have adequate insurance to drive other cars, even though i have no open drive.

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

In fairness if you are getting two different answers to a question like this from your insurer then you need to make a complaint and persue the matter further.

That was few years ago with Hibernian when I obtained my first car insurance in Ireland.
And indeed it was actually very closely related to OP's question.
I rang them and asked if I could use my "driving other cars" extension to drive a car registered in my wife's name which wasn't insured.
Answer was: no, you can't as car you are driving on "driving other cars" extension must be insured.
It didn't make too much sense to me, as it's just illogical and nothing like that was stated in policy so I rang again 5 minutes later and while talking to different person I asked the same question.
Answer was that it doesn't make any difference if car is insured by owner, as it's my policy which covers me driving it. But I can't drive a car registered in my wife's name on "driving other cars" as that's their rules.
At this stage it got interesting, so I rang again and this time I was told that obviously I'm covered to drive a car registered in my wife's name even though it's not insured by her.
Even though it was 6 years ago, I remember it very well, as I though this was ridiculous.

If they cant properly explain third party extension to you then there is something very wrong with how they operate.

Agree.
But my further experience with insurance call centres was not much different, so I believe most insurers are such incompetent.

Also, you interpreting your policy incorrectly puts you in no better a legal standing than if they give you the wrong information over the phone. At least if you say say that you were speaking with Mary at 12.30 on Friday 5th April and she said XYZ then you have some case. Even better if you can get it in some form of writing.

Obviously that interpreting policy by yourself is not a good idea, but most things are generally very clear in policies, and there is very little room for different interpretations.