How to establish a boundary?

antiskeptic

Have a friend looking for non-The Field level advice.

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The "boundary" at the end of his garden (in the sense of it appearing to the casual observer to be the natural divide) dividing him from the end of his neighbours back garden consists of a rough line of bushes and shrubs.

(averaging) Two meters inside that apparent bush-boundary runs a mini-stream. It's more or less parallel with the apparent bush-boundary.

My mate want's to erect a fence on front of the shrubbery - between it and the stream and nearer the shrubs than the stream. The neighbour wants any fence erected close to the stream edge - the middle of which, in his view, is the party line.

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The link below show the only map my mate has at present. It has an OS reference on it. His property is ringed in blue. At the top of the diagram you can see the stream running through the blue boundary line. It flows from right to left, with a kink just before it leaves his property)





My friend isn't interested in going to war. But he'd like to show something to the neighbour (who doesn't sound like they want to go to war either) should it be that the area desired by him is either:

- his (in which case, how does one head in direction of establishing that?)
- no-mans' land (in which case, how does one head in the direction of establishing that?).


If there is a simple way to establish the boundary, whether through map or through principle (when maps aren't available) then that'll probably be sufficient for both parties.



Thanks for any input..

Slig

Boundary disputes are a nightmare. There is no right answer as the legal maps are usually marked at a scale that isnt sufficently detailed to show wall/hedge details.
Generally, in this instance the boundary will be the centre line of the stream but for fencing purposes thats impractical. I would suggest that to keep all partys happy any fence your friend wishes to errect should be on his bank.
As always, seek professional legal advice on such issues.

Supertech

Have your mate agree the boundary with his neighbour, particularly if there is no dispute at present and everything is amicable. Then have it mapped and registered with the Property Registration Authority, and also described in a letter drafted by a solicitor for either side stating exactly what and where the boundary is. That agreement is the key, as the PRA operates a non conclusive boundary registration system - i.e the maps identify 'properties' and not their boundaries.This agreement will provide clarity in the case of a sale by either party.

The stream centreline as a legal boundary is a bad idea as the course of the steam may change over time leading to confusion in the future. Better to have a definite physical boundary to one side of the stream - the fence is a good idea - with ownership established and agreed up to that line on both sides, that is to say that the stream lies in one property or the other. A 'no man's land' situation, IMO is a bad idea, as it will usually end up being claimed by some party further down the line possibly leading to a future dispute.

Once the line is agreed get the boundary up as quickly as possible to avoid any confusion or doubt as to its position. Personally, given the small area of ground involved, (c2 metres wide) I'd accommodate the neighbour in the interests of getting the fence up, and possibly sharing the expense. There's not a lot of room for manouevre there in terms of space, but I'd be wary of putting the fence too close to the stream as it may be seasonal and have greater flow at certain times of the year making the adjoining ground soft which could lead to the fence being undermined and the agreed line being damaged or lost in the future. Maintenance of the fence and room to trim the shrubs at the back of the fence also needs to be considered. If the stream is of any significant size it would be wise to check that neither property has an outfall from a septic tank or percolation area running in to it as this could lead to issues as well.

Might help to look at any fence lines on the properties on either side too.

antiskeptic

Slig wrote: »

Boundary disputes are a nightmare. There is no right answer as the legal maps are usually marked at a scale that isnt sufficently detailed to show wall/hedge details.
Generally, in this instance the boundary will be the centre line of the stream but for fencing purposes thats impractical. I would suggest that to keep all partys happy any fence your friend wishes to errect should be on his bank.
As always, seek professional legal advice on such issues.

Okay. Thanks

So if the neighbour is willing to have the fence erected on the neighbours side of the stream (but nearer the edge than my mate wants) then that's a bonus for my mate.

I'll make not of the fact that it might be as well to formalise the boundary at this stage (if both agreeing) given that subsequent sales might open the problem up again.

antiskeptic

Supertech wrote: »

Have your mate agree the boundary with his neighbour, particularly if there is no dispute at present and everything is amicable. Then have it mapped and registered with the Property Registration Authority, and also described in a letter drafted by a solicitor for either side stating exactly what and where the boundary is. That agreement is the key, as the PRA operates a non conclusive boundary registration system - i.e the maps identify 'properties' and not their boundaries.This agreement will provide clarity in the case of a sale by either party.

Understood.

The stream centreline as a legal boundary is a bad idea as the course of the steam may change over time leading to confusion in the future.

Good point. Although in this case, the stream is pretty much a stream-lette.

Better to have a definite physical boundary to one side of the stream - the fence is a good idea - with ownership established and agreed up to that line on both sides, that is to say that the stream lies in one property or the other. A 'no man's land' situation, IMO is a bad idea, as it will usually end up being claimed by some party further down the line possibly leading to a future dispute.

Good point again - especially in light of future owners taking another view.

At the moment there doesn't appear to be a no-mans land take on the area - it was more whether for want of clear boundaries there existed the possibility that it was no mans land.

Not that there's any chance of my mate push hard, but how do these things pan out when someone goes to war? What are the criteria utilised to establish a boundary.

Once the line is agreed get the boundary up as quickly as possible to avoid any confusion or doubt as to its position. Personally, given the small area of ground involved, (c2 metres wide) I'd accommodate the neighbour in the interests of getting the fence up, and possibly sharing the expense.

In the larger scheme of things this is good advice. It was just that the ground on t'other side of the steam has been landscaped by my mate so putting the fence where the neighbour wants means losing some of the amenity. But like I say, it's not something he want trouble over.

There's not a lot of room for manouevre there in terms of space, but I'd be wary of putting the fence too close to the stream as it may be seasonal and have greater flow at certain times of the year making the adjoining ground soft which could lead to the fence being undermined and the agreed line being damaged or lost in the future. Maintenance of the fence and room to trim the shrubs at the back of the fence also needs to be considered. If the stream is of any significant size it would be wise to check that neither property has an outfall from a septic tank or percolation area running in to it as this could lead to issues as well.

Good points - espec about going too close to the stream

Thanks for taking the time to advise..

Supertech

antiskeptic wrote: »

Understood.
Not that there's any chance of my mate push hard, but how do these things pan out when someone goes to war? What are the criteria utilised to establish a boundary.

A nightmare as Slig has said above !! In my experience agreement is the best way to go. Disputes are costly, with no one benefiting except the legal eagles, and if you end up in court it's a lottery. A judge will see two neighbours fighting and try not to declare 'a winner' as they'll have to live beside each other afterwards. Best advice is work it out amicably and reasonably. However, I wouldn't be suggesting that your mate hand over a huge chunk of his landscaped garden either - there needs to be reason on both sides obviously.