Report on EAS Helicopter Crash

Bang Bang

The report on the Irish Air Corps/National Ambulance Service EAS helicopter 'hard landing' has been published and it recommends the issue and use of TETRA radios for all Paramedics.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0404/379714-tipperary-air-investigation/

It's interesting to say the least, in particular because there are regions in the NAS that still have inadequate radio systems where staff are not issued with 'hand held' portable radios.
I wonder will this report speed up the very long drawn out issue of portable radios for Paramedics in all regions

kub

You mean that Paramedics/ Ambulance crews do not have something as basic as a walkie talkie? This year being 2013?

I just read your link, typically what is it about this country that we cannot do things 100%? A helicopter coming into land on a field, probably the first time anything ever landed there from the sky and no one on the ground can communicate with the helicopter.....there is obviously some great planning by the powers that be.

I am giving AGS some credit here, I trust their patrol cars can communicate with their helicopters, or can they?

goldie fish

kub wrote: »

You mean that Paramedics/ Ambulance crews do not have something as basic as a walkie talkie? This year being 2013?

I just read your link, typically what is it about this country that we cannot do things 100%? A helicopter coming into land on a field, probably the first time anything ever landed there from the sky and no one on the ground can communicate with the helicopter.....there is obviously some great planning by the powers that be.

I am giving AGS some credit here, I trust their patrol cars can communicate with their helicopters, or can they?

You have in one post displayed total ignorance of aircraft, ambulance and police operations in this state.

Well done.

limericklad87

Stopped reading when I saw the phrase 'walkie talkie'.......... And then it just went downhill

kub

goldie fish wrote: »

You have in one post displayed total ignorance of aircraft, ambulance and police operations in this state.

Well done.

Not sure as to the tone of your post, is it necessary?

In case you have not noticed i have asked questions and am surprised that someone on the ground cannot actually communicate with the crew of a helicopter as it is about to land in a field in which probably nothing has ever landed before. I am not at all doubting the ability of the Aer Corp crew, however a preventable accident did occur.

By the sounds of it, pity someone as perfect as you were not there, everything would have been fine then.

Busted Flat.

kub wrote: »

You mean that Paramedics/ Ambulance crews do not have something as basic as a walkie talkie? This year being 2013?

I just read your link, typically what is it about this country that we cannot do things 100%? A helicopter coming into land on a field, probably the first time anything ever landed there from the sky and no one on the ground can communicate with the helicopter.....there is obviously some great planning by the powers that be.

I am giving AGS some credit here, I trust their patrol cars can communicate with their helicopters, or can they?

This is Ireland, what the fook do you want.

kub

limericklad87 wrote: »

Stopped reading when I saw the phrase 'walkie talkie'.......... And then it just went downhill

Why what do you good folk in Limerick call them?

Busted Flat.

Could anyone explain what a Walkie talkie has to do with a copter crashing. Ambulance, squad cars, and fire brigades have radio communications.

kub

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Could anyone explain what a Walkie talkie has to do with a copter crashing. Ambulance, squad cars, and fire brigades have radio communications.

It is mentioned on the OPs link above that the ambulance crew on the ground had no way of warning the helicopter of the presence of the power line.
They do indeed all have radios in the ambulance and helicopter, pity they cannot speak with each other.

just on the walkie talkie thing, i am just surprised that in this day and age that paramedics do not have them as part of their kit, them and stab proof vests the way things are going.

Busted Flat.

kub wrote: »

It is mentioned on the OPs link above that the ambulance crew on the ground had no way of warning the helicopter of the presence of the power line.
They do indeed all have radios in the ambulance and helicopter, pity they cannot speak with each other.

just on the walkie talkie thing, i am just surprised that in this day and age that paramedics do not have them as part of their kit, them and stab proof vests the way things are going.

This thread needs a bit of cop on. When does a pilot of a helicopter depend on someone on the ground to tell them how to land. When coming into land a competent pilot will circle the area and judge the landing site, if suitable he will make his decision, his responsibility, unless ordered to do otherwise. So where does the responsibility lay. My question is what was the urgency of the casualty, how long did the the ambulance take to take him to the hospital after the copter crash. Was the copter needed in the first place, has it flown since the incident.

Peregrine

Busted Flat. wrote: »

This thread needs a bit of cop on. When does a pilot of a helicopter depend on someone on the ground to tell them how to land. When coming into land a competent pilot will circle the area and judge the landing site, if suitable he will make his decision, his responsibility, unless ordered to do otherwise. So where does the responsibility lay. My question is what was the urgency of the casualty, how long did the the ambulance take to take him to the hospital after the copter crash. Was the copter needed in the first place, has it flown since the incident.

Well I think the crash just proved to us that communication between ground paramedics and the captain would prevent incidents like this. The pilots circled the site and decided to land, neither the pilots nor the crew on board saw the power lines until it was too late - but the paramedic on the ground saw it and being unable to help, had to stand there and watch the heli fly into a power line. He's not landing on safe helipads, HEMS crews land on fields and roads which aren't exactly appropriate landing terrain.

Obviously the casualty's details won't be disclosed by NAS and if the paramedics decided that air transport was needed then we can't question that either because they only requested and NAC provided. And no the aircraft hasn't flown since.

Busted Flat.

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Well I think the crash just proved to us that communication between ground paramedics and the captain would prevent incidents like this. The pilots circled the site and decided to land, neither the pilots nor the crew on board saw the power lines until it was too late - but the paramedic on the ground saw it and being unable to help, had to stand there and watch the heli fly into a power line. He's not landing on safe helipads, HEMS crews land on fields and roads which aren't exactly appropriate landing terrain.

Obviously the casualty's details won't be disclosed by NAS and if the paramedics decided that air transport was needed then we can't question that either because they only requested and NAC provided. And no the aircraft hasn't flown since.

Why was it so important to land for this patient, what I read later he was in no danger, why send a copter when the ambulance people were there in the first place. When the copter crashed, the ambulance crew, that had no way of communicating with the copter, that were on the ground took the patient to hospital anyway. There are more questions than answers here.

iceage

All in all, I reckon the Pilot did a cracking job just putting the thing on the ground and nobody was killed.

As always Hindsight is 20/20 folks, did the guy in the door have a clear view? Did they have a guy in the door? If there was a doubt of the site could they have put a guy out on a wire elsewhere to bring them in? The suggestion now is there could have been a second pass anticlockwise of the LZ.

The comms issue is relevant with this new(and very busy) service but at the end of the day its the guy on the stick who decides to land or not to.

As to why to use said chopper or not, simples you can turn a 35min trip by Ambulance into a 10-15min trip by air and free up said ambulance.

Mycroft H

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Could anyone explain what a Walkie talkie has to do with a copter crashing. Ambulance, squad cars, and fire brigades have radio communications.

Have you actually read the report? It very much had to do with the crash.

What it concluded as contributory causes ; pilot error and no direct means of communications with the ground.

(c) Contributory Cause(s)

1. The Pilot or crew did not see the wires until it was too late to avoid a collision with them.

2. The AP on the ground who had observed the wires prior to the approach of the helicopter had no means of direct communication with the helicopter crew to alert them to the potential hazard.

And the first recommendation;

The HSE NAS should expand the issue of Tetra radios to Paramedics and APs in the EAS operational area as a priority, in order to provide direct
communications with the helicopter crew, thus enhancing aviation safety
at the patient pick-up point. Where an EAS helicopter is not fitted with a
Tetra system, then other means of direct communications should be
explored.

However, fair play to the pilot for landing in a difficult situation.

http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/REPORT%202013-004_0.pdf

stoneill

Why did they pick a field with 20Kv power lines going through it?

Bang Bang

BX 19 wrote: »

Have you actually read the report? It very much had to do with the crash.
What it concluded as contributory causes ; pilot error and no direct means of communications with the ground.
And the first recommendation;
However, fair play to the pilot for landing in a difficult situation.

http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/REPORT%202013-004_0.pdf

Thanks for posting the link 'BX 19'. I've been meaning to post it but have been quite busy with work these past few days.

For those of you who ask "Why this and Why that?" BX 19 has posted a link to the answers for you.
As for patients details, medical condition etc, that comes under patient confidentiality and will not be disclosed to the general public.