Road Safety Audit

AltAccount

I'm on the board of management for our estate.

We've had a good few neighbours complain about regular speeding, requesting speed ramps be installed.
We've had other neighbours strongly against speed ramps, including threats of solicitors.


What we need to do is get some professional person/organisation to do a "safety audit" of the estate to gauge if we need ramps, what type, how many, where to position them, address concerns of noise pollution & additional vehicle wear, etc.


I've been asked to research this, but the only people I can think of are the RSA, ROSPA, IAM, an independent motor assessor or similar. I don't think any of these are suitable for the job at hand.


Can anyone suggest who could be hired to do this job and provide a report that will stand up to scrutiny from either side?

rcdk1

Road Safety Audits are carried out by Consultant Engineers. The only ones I know that specifically do RSAs are the bigger companies like Arup, RPS and Mott MacDonald but I'm sure there are others. Expect to drop a couple of grand for it but times are tough and they may be willing to negotiate.

A quick Google brought up this crowd, TTRSA. Never heard of them but the page below might be of interest.
http://www.ttrsa.com/expertise-services/road-safety/rsa-ireland

If you want some bedtime reading that will put you to sleep, have a look at NRA's Road Safety Audit standard HD19/09
http://www.nra.ie/RepositoryforPublicationsInfo/file,16168,en.pdf

Also, it might be worth asking a Mod to move the thread to the Commuting & Transport forum.

Atlantic Dawn

Is it a cul de sac or through road? Is the estate under the control of a management company?


Something like this company would do a survey but if it's just a cul de sac their services are likely to be overkill.
http://www.carra.ie/go/services/traffic_surveys

rcdk1

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Is it a cul de sac or through road? Is the estate under the control of a management company?


Something like this company would do a survey but if it's just a cul de sac their services are likely to be overkill.
http://www.carra.ie/go/services/traffic_surveys

While a traffic survey would typically form part of a Road Safety Audit, there's a lot more to a RSA.

Good point re who controls the estate and more specifically the road. OP was the estate ever taken in charge by the Local Authority?

AltAccount

Cul de sac under control of the management company

galwaytt

...just my 0.02 worth - but speed ramps do bring issues of their own - particularly for those adjacent to them. This can range from increased traffic noise (they all slow down), impact noise (everyone hits them - some faster than others), and occasionally there are accidents at them.

I've seen them removed by Galway Co Co here on foot of complaints.

...so, to be clear, a 'speed hump' isn't necessarily the answer.

Popoutman

Speed ramps won't do much to stop travelling too fast in an estate, based on what I've seen in the place where I live.

As a point of clarification, an estate (if not under the council's management) is private ground and there are no speed limits there, nor would any speed limit be enforceable.

If you do get ramps, just make sure that they are correctly shaped so as not to break cars. Most of the groups that I've seen putting in ramps cannot do it right. The bolt-down breaker bumps hurt cars at all speeds but hit them at 30-50mph and they get more gentle for the drivers. The pancake ramps that are just under the width of a bus track, are ineffective for cars once you go over them perfectly evenly. Most of the tarmac lumps that get put down are far too sharp for the majority of cars and still can be best driven over at 40mph instead of 10. You may get a better response with a polite request for moderation in driving patterns than putting something on the ground that makes it very uncomfortable for everyone.

Any ramp over four inches in height from the road surface should not go in, and should be removed if it does go in.

If a resident ended up damaging a car due to new ramps being put in, there would be a strong case against the management company for damages.

galwaytt

Popoutman wrote: »

If you do get ramps, just make sure that they are correctly shaped so as not to break cars. Most of the groups that I've seen putting in ramps cannot do it right.

...exactly. I've had tarmac ones removed because they were done wrong. There are specifics to be met in terms of height, of angle of approach and angle of departure.

There is actually a specific tech document from RSA on this, and the guys installing them here that I challenged on it never heard of it........(public road, for local authority).

Henry Ford III

galwaytt wrote: »

...just my 0.02 worth - but speed ramps do bring issues of their own - particularly for those adjacent to them. This can range from increased traffic noise (they all slow down), impact noise (everyone hits them - some faster than others), and occasionally there are accidents at them.

I've seen them removed by Galway Co Co here on foot of complaints.

...so, to be clear, a 'speed hump' isn't necessarily the answer.

This'll learn 'em

AltAccount

Popoutman wrote: »

Speed ramps won't do much to stop travelling too fast in an estate, based on what I've seen in the place where I live.

As a point of clarification, an estate (if not under the council's management) is private ground and there are no speed limits there, nor would any speed limit be enforceable.

No speed limit is being enforced, the ramps would be used to curb the speed of people who are driving excessively fast (around playing children etc).

Popoutman wrote: »

If you do get ramps, just make sure that they are correctly shaped so as not to break cars. Most of the groups that I've seen putting in ramps cannot do it right. The bolt-down breaker bumps hurt cars at all speeds but hit them at 30-50mph and they get more gentle for the drivers. The pancake ramps that are just under the width of a bus track, are ineffective for cars once you go over them perfectly evenly. Most of the tarmac lumps that get put down are far too sharp for the majority of cars and still can be best driven over at 40mph instead of 10. You may get a better response with a polite request for moderation in driving patterns than putting something on the ground that makes it very uncomfortable for everyone.

This kind of info - a recommendation on ramp type, based on the layout and general traffic or the estate - is essentially what we need.
Several polite requests have been sent already, but some people are just selfish d1cks.

Popoutman wrote: »

Any ramp over four inches in height from the road surface should not go in, and should be removed if it does go in.

The current proposed ramps are 50mm. Not an issue.

Popoutman wrote: »

If a resident ended up damaging a car due to new ramps being put in, there would be a strong case against the management company for damages.

Interested to hear more about this, I'd be dubious about how far you'd get with that lawsuit tbh. Once they're appropriately signposted and highlighted, the driver has to bear a lot of the responsibility for their driving style/speed impacting their car.

galwaytt wrote: »

...just my 0.02 worth - but speed ramps do bring issues of their own - particularly for those adjacent to them. This can range from increased traffic noise (they all slow down), impact noise (everyone hits them - some faster than others), and occasionally there are accidents at them.

I've seen them removed by Galway Co Co here on foot of complaints.

...so, to be clear, a 'speed hump' isn't necessarily the answer.

Yep, and those neighbours against them have very valid arguments. I'm very much on the fence myself.


I guess what we need, as 6 unqualified people who volunteered to sit on the board of the management company, is the ability to go back to either/both of the "sides" in the argument and say "we've decided (not) to put speedramps in because..." and to have a document from someone who is qualified, to back up our decision.


I'll look for that RSA tech doc in the meantime, and give Carra a call (although cameras and counting of traffic flow is way OTT for what we need).

MadsL

Have you considered traffic calming rather than speed bumps. These were very effective when I lived in Oxford. It is impossible to speed as a result of the chicane effect and traffic has to give way to each other. Clipping kerbs and tyre damage was initially an issue but I beleive they now dish the curbs.

One way street here...

Tree planters as chicanes

Junction speed bumps

Similar ideas in Windsor...


Nicely done with cycle separation and planters in Islington.

gutteruu

From working with the council, I know planters have visibility issues with growth and kids not being seen. In regards to speed bumps, the biggest issue is noise effect, which comes from cars accelerating away after the bump, not the actual bump itself. You have to bear this in mind for the people living after the bump and not just at the bump itself. They tend to have the most issues. Traffic calming can work, but in my opinion you are taking peoples attention away from watching for kids to navigating tight corners.

ironclaw

50mm? That's barely 2 inches. Will have absolutely no impact. I lived on a Cul De Sac (private mind you) and there were ramps put in. Its all well and good if you live closest the exit as you'll hit maybe one ramp. The poor guy who lives at the very bottom has to traverse the entire bunch of them (if your putting in multiple ramps) They get seriously annoying. I don't know about you but ramps seriously annoy me. Especially in shopping centres or ring roads where its ramp after ramp. Imagine doing this everytime you get into your car?

They are not a good idea. They just annoy people. As its a Cul De Sac, its probably just worth having a word with some people. Anyone speeding is probably a resident. If its really bad, I'm sure these people come home at the same time every day. Ask a community Garda to pop up and sit there for a little while.

Kids are equally at fault for not being correctly taught road manners i.e. Stay on the path. Simple but surprisingly effective.

keithclancy

The only benefit to speed ramps is getting people to slow down coming up to a junction.

As a general deterrent against speeders, they are totally useless and just wreck low profile cars.

godtabh

I'm a roads engineer. Before hiring the likes of me read a copy of Design Manual for Urban Roads and Streets and see if anything is acceptable.

A road safey audit comes in 3 stages. Generally a Stage 1 is pre planning/planning. Stage 2 is detailed design and Stage 3 is just before it is open. Either way each one of them will cost you as you will need two sets of consultants (the auditors need to be independent of the designers).

If you want a professional opinion let me know.

godtabh

keithclancy wrote: »

The only benefit to speed ramps is getting people to slow down coming up to a junction.

As a general deterrent against speeders, they are totally useless and just wreck low profile cars.

They are very useful controlling speed any where. They can also be used to incorporate pedestrian crossings. Have a look at the likes of Design Manual for Urban Roads and Streets, Traffic Management Guidelines, Manual for Streets etc.

comanche_cor

Personally I would be very against speed bumps in an estate. I wouldn't live where there are any - there was a study done in the UK a few years back where it was shown that the fumes from acceleration after and brake dust from slowing down before speed bumps was causing respiratory problems for people living in houses where there were speed bumps ... can't find a source for this now unfortunately :rolleyes: