fights for dominance

jsabina

Hi,
I open a new thread as I see the situation evolving.
The two six months old dogs seems to be playing but also fighting.
The play is quite hard.
Outdoor they are nice, but at home sometimes they are nice sleeping together, playing normal, but other times I can see sign of dominance from one or the other.
Usually was her to "win" and put him down and stop him.
But now he seems to react more.
To be honest it's quite stressful for me, I don't want to see injuries and I am not able to understand if it's safe or not.
I am trying to leave them understand each other, stopping the fight when it seems too hard and praising them when they are nice and quiet.
If I see that the situation doesn't change and that she is staying longer maybe I would ask to a behaviourist or trainer.. but as she is a foster dog and looking for a house I don't know now if it's worth.

Obviously I am giving food in separate rooms, treats as well and leaving them separate when I can't supervise.

Other experiences with two dogs?

thanks!

hadook

It sounds like you're doing everything you should really.

Dogs playfighting make a lot of noise and it can appear to be more serious than it actually is. My gsd can bowl the pup clear across the kitchen when they kick off and she's up seconds later and back jumping on him for more. And the noise - you'd think someone was being murdered with the growls and snarls from the pair of them. They were bodyslamming each other this morning when I let them out for a pee :rolleyes: but if she takes it too far he's quite direct about disciplining her and if he accidentally hurts her we all know about it. 30 seconds later it's all forgotten and they're back waving teeth around and going raarrwwwwrrr like idiots

If their body language is relaxed (and I watched your video - they do seem quite happy with one another) and no blood/fur/teeth are actually flying I tend to leave them to it and let them work out their pecking order themselves. As it's bothering you then correct when the noise gets to a level you don't like and they'll learn to play a little quieter. Dogs will pick up on your concern so try not to worry too much.

carav10

Hard playfighting really is very noisy, you'd swear they were really fighting except there's very little 'lock on', one of mine is like a cat hissing when she's in the playzone. Just look out for the warning signs where it might be getting too intense, sudden stiffening of the body, that 'stare'. I do time outs alright on my two if it gets too much (for me or them!). But they usually stop and shake themselves off if it's getting too much for one of them, or the smaller one will come running to me for protection if it's too hard. So just learn to read the comfortable playfighting and when it might be getting too much. If there's no fur flying and their body language is relaxed then chances are they're ok. But if it looks like it might escalate, then some distraction is always good to give them a break.

Fights for dominance are very different. There'll sometimes be warning signs of this like the dominant dog bodybumping the other away, body stiffening, dominant dog doing a fixed stare at the other (usually over nothing!) before it escalates. My 12mth pup is definitely the dominant of the two, we had 3 very iffy months where I had to manage them so carefully. Now whenever she gets in a 'mood' as I call it, the other one immediately goes and sits at the back door or any door to distance herself from her and I'll use some distraction to get her mind out of it. But strangely enough, the pup is the submissive one to all other dogs but a bit of a bully to her packmate. I do feed them separately now, or together under supervision and a few feet away from each other.

jsabina

Thanks a lot for your answers.
But do you let them together when you are not at home?

carav10

jsabina wrote: »

Thanks a lot for your answers.
But do you let them together when you are not at home?

Absolutely. If it's serious regular dog fighting, then that's different. But even when I had the problem ongoing, it was late at night and when I was there. I really don't think they had issues when I wasn't there. I might separate them in the initial moments after but once things had calmed, they'd be put back together again and all would be fine. But every situation is different and you'll need to find what works and what doesn't until they get over it.

If there is a battle going on for hierarchy, then they need to be left to it unless it looks like it's getting seriously out of hand. It won't necessarily be the dog you want it to be, they'll decide between them. Problem is if one doesn't back down and give over.

But to be honest, it sounds to me that they're playfighting most of the time with a few spats and you maybe are struggling to recognise the difference. So just keep watching them and look for any signs of discomfort. If one dog is uncomfortable, they will let you know. An older dog will sometimes discipline the pup, that's ok, but then one day, the pup (around after 8mths) might decide they don't want to be disciplined anymore by the older dog and when that day comes, they'll sort their own hierarchy. You just need to be very aware and manage it.

Whispered

Personally I wouldn't be leaving them alone just yet. But then I might have been extra careful as I had one adult male and took in an unneutered male. I guess, do whatever you're comfortable with. There is no rush to leave them alone together, and your fella might even enjoy the peace! Even now, sometimes I'll crate one of them if I'm heading out for an hour. If you do decided to leave them alone together, start with short stretches.

carav10 wrote: »

If there is a battle going on for hierarchy, then they need to be left to it unless it looks like it's getting seriously out of hand. It won't necessarily be the dog you want it to be, they'll decide between them. Problem is if one doesn't back down and give over.

But to be honest, it sounds to me that they're playfighting most of the time with a few spats and you maybe are struggling to recognise the difference. So just keep watching them and look for any signs of discomfort. If one dog is uncomfortable, they will let you know. An older dog will sometimes discipline the pup, that's ok, but then one day, the pup (around after 8mths) might decide they don't want to be disciplined anymore by the older dog and when that day comes, they'll sort their own hierarchy. You just need to be very aware and manage it.

I'm not sure about the idea of hierarchy between dogs as a static thing, Harley loves his tennis ball, he will not give it up to Phoe and he will stand his ground until he backs off. Is this a battle for hierarchy, or is it just that one dog wants the ball more than the other? Phoe loves his cuddles and will sit on the other fella to get close to me, making both of them uncomfortable, until the bigger guy moves. Hierarchy, or has Phoe just learned if he sits on Harley he'll eventually feck off giving him access to the cuddles? Even with the water dish, Phoe will often shove his way in to drink while Harley is drinking, Harley will usually back off. If he has been out running and is thirsty, he will not allow Phoe get in his way.

From what I see myself, it's something that changes constantly depending on the mood of the dogs and the resource at stake. As such, if there were battles, it would be constant. I'd feel like they're always trying to get one up on each other - and they're definitely not doing that. I'd be more inclined to see it as a sibling type relationship, with all of the companionship and rows that can entail. Granted that is just a personal observation.

carav10

Whispered wrote: »

I'm not sure about the idea of hierarchy between dogs as a static thing, Harley loves his tennis ball, he will not give it up to Phoe and he will stand his ground until he backs off. Is this a battle for hierarchy, or is it just that one dog wants the ball more than the other? Phoe loves his cuddles and will sit on the other fella to get close to me, making both of them uncomfortable, until the bigger guy moves. Hierarchy, or has Phoe just learned if he sits on Harley he'll eventually feck off giving him access to the cuddles? Even with the water dish, Phoe will often shove his way in to drink while Harley is drinking, Harley will usually back off. If he has been out running and is thirsty, he will not allow Phoe get in his way.

From what I see myself, it's something that changes constantly depending on the mood of the dogs and the resource at stake. As such, if there were battles, it would be constant. I'd feel like they're always trying to get one up on each other - and they're definitely not doing that. I'd be more inclined to see it as a sibling type relationship, with all of the companionship and rows that can entail. Granted that is just a personal observation.

There's something in that alright, that it's not always an absolute in that it depends what's at stake, but from my experience with two females, younger dog is definitely the boss overall, but there are little things that the older dog gets her ways in, such as not giving up the toy straight away and giving her little growls to say 'keep your distance' but usually she gives in eventually for a quieter life. There wouldn't be a fight over it though. But even the boarding kennels owner where I send them noticed that pup is definitely the boss. Don't get me wrong, they are great pals, and both easy going dogs, they'll share their bed, they'll play, but there is that little noticeable hierarchy in certain things. As you say, a typical sibling relationship :-)

jsabina

Thanks a lot for all the answers!!!
Yes, the problem is that I don't have experience with two dogs at home and I think I am "overthinking" everything.
And as usual sometimes reading websites just scares you, while the real experience is better.
Maybe I won't need those advises for a while, it seems that marley found a forever home, so even if it's hard I need to let her go.
I will maybe foster dogs in the future and I will definitely have a second dog when jago will be older.

Anyway... they were playing fighting before again, but always coming back to each other and sharing sticks or what they found in the grass :O
I think it's going well!

Whispered

jsabina wrote: »

Thanks a lot for all the answers!!!
Yes, the problem is that I don't have experience with two dogs at home and I think I am "overthinking" everything.
And as usual sometimes reading websites just scares you, while the real experience is better.
Maybe I won't need those advises for a while, it seems that marley found a forever home, so even if it's hard I need to let her go.
I will maybe foster dogs in the future and I will definitely have a second dog when jago will be older.

Anyway... they were playing fighting before again, but always coming back to each other and sharing sticks or what they found in the grass :O
I think it's going well!

Congratulations

bluecherry74

Whispered wrote: »

I'm not sure about the idea of hierarchy between dogs as a static thing, Harley loves his tennis ball, he will not give it up to Phoe and he will stand his ground until he backs off. Is this a battle for hierarchy, or is it just that one dog wants the ball more than the other? Phoe loves his cuddles and will sit on the other fella to get close to me, making both of them uncomfortable, until the bigger guy moves. Hierarchy, or has Phoe just learned if he sits on Harley he'll eventually feck off giving him access to the cuddles? Even with the water dish, Phoe will often shove his way in to drink while Harley is drinking, Harley will usually back off. If he has been out running and is thirsty, he will not allow Phoe get in his way.

From what I see myself, it's something that changes constantly depending on the mood of the dogs and the resource at stake. As such, if there were battles, it would be constant. I'd feel like they're always trying to get one up on each other - and they're definitely not doing that. I'd be more inclined to see it as a sibling type relationship, with all of the companionship and rows that can entail. Granted that is just a personal observation.

I see this all the time with my two. Jess is generally the boss and decides when to play and when to stop, she takes the lead when they're walking together and she steals his food if I'm not watching. However if she and I are having a cuddle, Henry will shove her out of the way to get between us. And if Henry is in her spot on the sofa Jess will look to me to move him. :rolleyes: Also, since she's deaf, she'll follow his lead when he reacts to noises.

doubter

playfitghing can even look quite serious..but still..here's 2 of mine and they are only playing..

jsabina

It's "funny" because outside he is the boss.. in the house she is the boss!!
That's how it looks, but they exchange a lot.
The thing is that he doesn't growl at all and she does and she is bigger so maybe it sounds to me more aggressive.
Now (after one hour in the park with lot of dogs) they were playfighting in the garden.. I left them.. it became a bit too aggressive and after a louder growl they stopped!
They started again but more quiet..
Dogs dogs.. for sure they are keeping me busy and entertained!

tk123

Funny I was thinking of you yesterday - 2 puppies I know where playing and the female was going mad growling lol. All play but a passer by looked over in shock lol.

Andyjj

Hi all,

I am having similar issues. Younger, larger dog well mannered and gets on great with my older dog fine about 90% of the time, usual playful mouthfighting and wrestling like most dogs do. Lately though she's showing a lot more dominant body language and at times is almost chasing the other dog around the garden. Hasn't come to bloodshed and I don't think it will but had to bring the older dog to the vet recently to investigate patches of hairloss. After bloodtests etc. came back clear the vet suggested it could be stress related. Older dog seems to be isolating herself and avoiding the younger dog also. I'm at my wits end. I'd hate to have to rehome the younger dog but I can't allow the bullying to continue. She's smart enough to only do it when she thinks I'm not watching so it's hard to correct her behaviour. I can only assume this behaviour continues when I'm not home. Anybody got any ideas?

jsabina

I suppose you are not able to keep them separate when you are not at home?
Do they stay in the garden?
That's what I am doing with the two crazy puppies.. I don't want them in general to get too stressed even if they won't kill each other.

For us it's all going good.
I've been with them yesterday, they even exchanged their bowl of food (me supervising all the time and no sign of stress) and playing hard or good but also "romantic" moments.
They always look to stay together anyway.
It's crazy how are they different, and how she behave different when she is outdoor!!
She becomes the perfect dog, quiet, placid, submissive... at home it changes a lot eheheh..