Berlin-Brandenburg Airport

Simon Gruber Says

I'm just sitting on a rooftop terrace looking over Berlin's new airport. It's quite impressive looking but it's construction has been marred with problems.

Originally planned to open in 2010, it's purpose is to amalgamate the traffic from Berlin's three airports, Templehof in the centre (closed since 2008 and is now a public park with the terminal building and runways still intact), Tegel in the north which is the current main international airport handling long haul traffic and Schönefeld in the south which caters to mostly budget airlines like Ryanair, EasyJet and Aer Lingus also fly here currently. The new airport has been constructed on the south side of Schönefeld, using the existing runway as the new airport's north runway with a new one constructed to the south in parallel.

Stage one, the closure of Templehof is already complete and the closure of both Schönefeld and Tegel will occur when the new airport opens.

However, the opening date has been pushed back one year, every year since due to badly designed fire suppression systems and electrical problems requiring demolition and reconstruction of large portions of the terminal building. Talking to locals, they can't see it opening anytime before 2015 and most feel quite bitter about the time it's taken and the fact that it is now substantially over budget. I've heard people say it's €1 Billion+ over the original budget now, but I can't confirm.

Being a frequent traveller to Schönefeld, the new airport can't come soon enough IMO. It once was the main airport for the East German state and the terminal is quite poorly designed and struggles to handle to volume of traffic it currently has. This is especially bad at the boarding areas as you must pass through a passport control desk at your gate and if your flight is in anyway full, unless you get there early there will be nowhere to sit as the areas are very small and you cannot return once entering.

Currently Schönefeld is to me the worst airport in an EU capitol city. Hopefully the new Berlin-Brandenburg Airport will be similar to Munich, which is a breeze to travel from with it's great open design, plenty of shops and even an outdoor square in the middle with a roof which houses various events throughout the year such as Christmas markets and sporting events and even a beer garden.

More info here :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Brandenburg_Airport

http://www.dw.de/an-airport-delayed/a-16507126

donvito99

Templehof was a spectacular airport, and if anything good has come from this project, it is now an incredible park! The huge delays have also seriously inconvenienced Air Berlin, struggling in their own right.

I have to agree with you that Schonefeld isn't ideal for us Irish pax, the taxi to the City Centre is monumentally expensive. This debacle also flys in the face of everything we have come to associate with German infrastructure and planning.

If O'Leary thought DUB's T2 was bad....

Simon Gruber Says

I agree about Templehof, I love going there for a walk or cycling up and down the old runways. You can really imagine all the old Douglas and Lockheed propliners flying in and out after the war.

A taxi from Schönefeld to the city centre is very expensive, however the S-Bahn station is only a 5 minute walk from the door and will get you there in about 45 mins, although you will need to change trains once in order to get to Alexanderplatz/Potsdamerplatz and those areas because of the way the train network is laid out. Still it's much better connected than Dublin Airport is.

Cookiemunster

Simon Gruber Says wrote: »

A taxi from Schönefeld to the city centre is very expensive, however the S-Bahn station is only a 5 minute walk from the door and will get you there in about 45 mins, although you will need to change trains once in order to get to Alexanderplatz/Potsdamerplatz and those areas because of the way the train network is laid out. Still it's much better connected than Dublin Airport is.

Use the Regional Express. Airport direct to Alexanderplatz in 20 mins and another 5 mins to the Hauptbahnof. I used it twice last year. Dead handy.

CaptainSkidmark

Is there any old aircraft still at Templehof?

that is some size of a building to be just let there!

cson

Simon Gruber Says wrote: »

I agree about Templehof, I love going there for a walk or cycling up and down the old runways. You can really imagine all the old Douglas and Lockheed propliners flying in and out after the war.

A taxi from Schönefeld to the city centre is very expensive, however the S-Bahn station is only a 5 minute walk from the door and will get you there in about 45 mins, although you will need to change trains once in order to get to Alexanderplatz/Potsdamerplatz and those areas because of the way the train network is laid out. Still it's much better connected than Dublin Airport is.

I'd disagree regarding the connections in Dublin. The 747 bus is very underrated and provides an excellent link to the City Centre.

Though mass transit rail from Airport to City Centre would be nice, its not a disaster not having it.

A320

flew into/out of tegel recently,its strange place but it was handy for what I wanted,front door to airbridge is about 50feet,22 quid taxi to alexanderplatz aint bad considering I once got charged almost that from Shannon to Newmarket On Fergus

CaptainSkidmark

cson wrote: »

I'd disagree regarding the connections in Dublin. The 747 bus is very underrated and provides an excellent link to the City Centre.

Though mass transit rail from Airport to City Centre would be nice, its not a disaster not having it.

BALLS i got it a few weeks back and it took me a hour and a half to get to the airport!

Taxi is the only way i get to the airport. Dart or Luas to the airport is a winner i think

Stimpyone

Yeah Schönefeld sucks big time. Especially in the summer when there's more pax and the sun bakes the building. Also the Hugo-Junkers-Lounge is a joke it's only redeeming feature is the lack of crowds and the air conditioning.

Simon Gruber Says

As expected the annual delay to EDDB has added another year and is likely to remain closed until 2016. This will mean it will have been 10 years since construction began until opening and billions over budget. They really made a mess of this.

cson

SXF is quite easily the worst Airport I have ever had the misfortune to transit through.

N7777G

What about London Heathrow - surely there can't be any airport worse than it?

It's a nightmare to travel through and of course made even worse by scores of jobsworths in their totally ott security checks.

goingnowhere

cson wrote: »

SXF is quite easily the worst Airport I have ever had the misfortune to transit through.

In terms of time from front door to the plane, SXF is among the best. Queues are rare, excellent choice of public transport options. No taxi or holding delays so flight delays are rare. Sure it doesn't look pretty but the purpose is to get you on a plane and get out of dodge not to have some world class waiting experience...

Heathrow is stress, routine to be 20 minutes holding over London, taxi delays. Crazy security check points where for some reason they want to keep taking my photo despite having a passport with my photo on it. Don't get me started on the walk to gate 84.

cson

Well my experience of SXF is insane queues; firstly to check in, secondly they've some kind of proprietary bag security thing going on before you reach actual security. Air side facilities are ****e with nowhere to sit.

Heathrow is grand if you're transiting through T1 imo.

Lapin

Simon Gruber Says wrote: »

Currently Schönefeld is to me the worst airport in an EU capitol city.

N7777G wrote: »

What about London Heathrow - surely there can't be any airport worse than it?

Compared to Paris CDG, using both of the above feels like a walk in the park.

murphaph

SXF is my local airport and we use it several times a year. It's a horrible kip and has an extreme lack of seating which is absolutely no fun when traveling as a family. They are also buggy unfriendly...buggies are not put on the carousel. You have to go to excess baggage and wait ages for some goon to give you the buggy. Meanwhile everyone else is long gone. It's also unbearably hot in summer and queues are common!

Katunga

So much for German efficiency. I'v been to Schönefeld once at new years this year, worst airport I'v traveled through it's like a shed. No logic to they way it operates. my whole trip to Berlin I found every thing poorly organised compared to here.

aramush

TXL is some kip also, no shape to it at all. The sooner they get BER sorted the better of all travellers!

N7777G

N7777G wrote: »

What about London Heathrow - surely there can't be any airport worse than it?

It's a nightmare to travel through and of course made even worse by scores of jobsworths in their totally ott security checks.

Heathrow have more photos of me than my parents. Only passed through the bloody place twice.


Amazing cock-up. Hard to believe they could do it really.

peter1892

A few years back I flew DUB-CDG-KUL then returned SIN-KUL-LHR-DUB.

Singapore & Kuala Lumpur were brilliant airports. Heathrow - for all its faults - moved well and despite the constant security checks & rechecks at least it was all signposted and relatively easy to get through (T4 to T1).

De Gaulle was a disaster, a dump of a building, badly organised with the least helpful staff I've ever encountered in an airport anywhere I've been to (and I travelled through JFK before it was done up).

But that's getting away from the point of the thread...I travelled to Berlin in 2007 when the construction work was well underway. SXF was a bit of a kip and overcrowded but the plan for BER seemed great and it's a monumental screw up that its not ready yet. I would have loved to have flown into Templehof though...

murphaph

aramush wrote: »

TXL is some kip also, no shape to it at all. The sooner they get BER sorted the better of all travellers!

Actually I like Tegel. For a city airport it's pretty good at doing its job. No major lack of seating like Schönefeld and not unbearably hot in summer. It was sadly never completed as planned though:



Terminal C over on the left was the "Pier D" of Tegel. The original plan called for another hexagon like terminal A. The airport would have had 2 large hexagon shaped terminals and a "almost" hexagon shaped service area between them:



The underground station never got built either as it became clear that Tegel would close. I'll miss Tegel when it does close...won't miss Schönefeld at all however. I think Tegel could remain open but for the ego of the Mayor of Berlin. BER is his "grand project" and he wants BER to become a hub to compete with Munich/Frankfurt. Berlin is a city of 3.5 million people, 4.5 if you count the metropolitan area around it. It could easily support 2 airports IMO but BER is less likely to become this hub for the mayor if air traffic is divided between 2 airports. I bet they'll regret closing Tegel at some stage though.

markpb

Deleted User wrote: »

Heathrow have more photos of me than my parents. Only passed through the bloody place twice. Amazing cock-up. Hard to believe they could do it really.

IIRC The photo is actual a retina scan. Passengers from different regions (Schengen and non-Schengen) mix in certain parts of the airport so they take an entry retina scan and an exit retina scan to make sure the person on the ticket/passport hasn't changed while mingling with other people.

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

The underground station never got built either as it became clear that Tegel would close. I'll miss Tegel when it does close...won't miss Schönefeld at all however. I think Tegel could remain open but for the ego of the Mayor of Berlin. BER is his "grand project" and he wants BER to become a hub to compete with Munich/Frankfurt. Berlin is a city of 3.5 million people, 4.5 if you count the metropolitan area around it. It could easily support 2 airports IMO but BER is less likely to become this hub for the mayor if air traffic is divided between 2 airports. I bet they'll regret closing Tegel at some stage though.

I really don't see the sense in a city that size having to only have the one airport

markpb wrote: »

IIRC The photo is actual a retina scan. Passengers from different regions (Schengen and non-Schengen) mix in certain parts of the airport so they take an entry retina scan and an exit retina scan to make sure the person on the ticket/passport hasn't changed while mingling with other people.

Would there be much intra-Schengen football through Heathrow?

highlydebased

I've experienced the retina scan (and having to stand on markings on the floor that I assume takes your weight) in T1 in Heathrow- but not in T4 however

murphaph

Deleted User wrote: »

I really don't see the sense in a city that size having to only have the one airport

Indeed and TXL being in the northwest of the city and SXF/BER being the the southeast it would have made more than some sense to retain TXL as it is easier to get to for a large swathe of the population. Berlin is big. It takes time to cross the city even with the good infrastructure we have here, so forcing everyone to BER is going to piss a lot of people off, especially business travellers living in the north and northwest of Berlin.

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

Indeed and TXL being in the northwest of the city and SXF/BER being the the southeast it would have made more than some sense to retain TXL as it is easier to get to for a large swathe of the population. Berlin is big. It takes time to cross the city even with the good infrastructure we have here, so forcing everyone to BER is going to piss a lot of people off, especially business travellers living in the north and northwest of Berlin.

The size is one thing (looks like construction on an extension will start by the time BER opens, incredible) but redundancy is another. If any issue arises during full operations and the other airports have been shut down then what?

From the outside there's very little about this project that seems to make any sense at all.

goingnowhere

Deleted User wrote: »

The size is one thing (looks like construction on an extension will start by the time BER opens, incredible) but redundancy is another. If any issue arises during full operations and the other airports have been shut down then what?

BER and SXF are the same place just effectively a different terminal, same runway(s)

There is talk of keeping SXF for LCC, biz jets etc

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

IIRC The photo is actual a retina scan. Passengers from different regions (Schengen and non-Schengen) mix in certain parts of the airport so they take an entry retina scan and an exit retina scan to make sure the person on the ticket/passport hasn't changed while mingling with other people.

highlydebased wrote: »

I've experienced the retina scan (and having to stand on markings on the floor that I assume takes your weight) in T1 in Heathrow- but not in T4 however

The photo check at Heathrow is actually only for flights departing for domestic/CTA destinations and nothing to do with Schengen/non-Schengen. It's an enhanced UK Border check.

Deleted User wrote: »

Heathrow have more photos of me than my parents. Only passed through the bloody place twice.

Amazing cock-up. Hard to believe they could do it really.

The photos are destroyed once you've departed - it's hardly that much of an inconvenience - it takes 10 seconds max. Talk about exaggerating the issue.

lxflyer

lxflyer wrote: »

The photos are destroyed once you've departed - it's hardly that much of an inconvenience - it takes 10 seconds max. Talk about exaggerating the issue.

Well if you believe that then fair play.
The photo itself doesn't take long. The queuing did.

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

The photos are destroyed once you've departed - it's hardly that much of an inconvenience - it takes 10 seconds max. Talk about exaggerating the issue.

When MAN T1 had this system - removed after the Jet2 unaccompanied kid debacle as they seemed to think it could be run automated and unsupervised and a child without a ticket managed to get through the gates - it had SERIOUS trouble dealing with my height. I'm very tall for Ireland but not really for the UK; and generally I had to go use the one manned gate as it just would not accept I actually had a face. So yes, it can be one hell of an inconvenience for some.

I haven't had quite as much trouble in LGW - are they shorter in Northern England?

Lapin

MYOB wrote: »

When MAN T1 had this system - removed after the Jet2 unaccompanied kid debacle as they seemed to think it could be run automated and unsupervised and a child without a ticket managed to get through the gates - it had SERIOUS trouble dealing with my height. I'm very tall for Ireland but not really for the UK; and generally I had to go use the one manned gate as it just would not accept I actually had a face. So yes, it can be one hell of an inconvenience for some.

I haven't had quite as much trouble in LGW - are they shorter in Northern England?

WTF ?

L1011

Lapin wrote: »

WTF ?

In general you're all shortarses here

murphaph

goingnowhere wrote: »

BER and SXF are the same place just effectively a different terminal, same runway(s)

There is talk of keeping SXF for LCC, biz jets etc

SXF will be partially demolished and converted into the government terminal. The Luftwaffe will then reassign its government jets to there (they are currently based in Cologne/Bonn and have to fly to TXL to collect the Chancellor, ministers etc. before setting off-pretty inefficient!). That's the plan anyway.

Edit: SXF used to have 2 parallel runways (too close together for simultaneous operations) but the northern one was closed about over a decade ago and partially ploughed up to make way for the A113 Autobahn. The airport has been running on the remaining single runway ever since. This will become the northern runway for BER and there will be an additional southern runway which will allow simultaneous operations, like at Munich (mid field airport).

munchkin_utd

murphaph wrote: »

<snip>This will become the northern runway for BER and there will be an additional southern runway which will allow simultaneous operations, like at Munich (mid field airport).

but unlike Berlin, Munich opened on time and on budget and the garguantuan operation to move everything not nailed down across town overnight went without a hitch. So good that they got awards for the logistical feat!
http://www.munich-airport.de/en/micro/20jahre/umzug/index.jsp

I dont know what they are at in Berlin thats its so late and over budget.

And yesterday it was anounced that it'll not open before the end of 2016.
Aparantly someone forgot to go round the local residents and give them extra acoustic insulation as was supposed to be done.

Marcusm

Deleted User wrote: »

Well if you believe that then fair play.
The photo itself doesn't take long. The queuing did.

And when returning to Dublin you're forced, inappropriately, to get into a passport queue as CTA and other flights are not segregated. The LHR procedure is there as a consequence of the absence of photo ID requirements.

Fred Swanson

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Cookiemunster

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's probably a Schengen thing. UK and Ireland are the only EU countries not in the Schengen zone, so passports have to be checked. Some of the newer Polish airports I've been to have a couple of segregated gates at the end of the terminal for these flights.

murphaph

munchkin_utd wrote: »

but unlike Berlin, Munich opened on time and on budget and the garguantuan operation to move everything not nailed down across town overnight went without a hitch. So good that they got awards for the logistical feat!
http://www.munich-airport.de/en/micro/20jahre/umzug/index.jsp

I dont know what they are at in Berlin thats its so late and over budget.

And yesterday it was anounced that it'll not open before the end of 2016.
Aparantly someone forgot to go round the local residents and give them extra acoustic insulation as was supposed to be done.

Yeah it's a balls alright, very embarrassing for the capital city. I love MUC. Great airport. Had the privilege of visiting the control tower there (and also the ATC centre nearby, which handles ATC for southern Germany and parts of Austria and Switzerland.).

murphaph

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Schengen countries are obliged to check the passports of those leaving the Schengen Zone but are obviously prohibited from checking passports of people travelling inside Schengen...so where else could you check passports so selectively if not at the gate? It's not just German airports that have this set up.

LXFlyer

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm sure MI5 have better things to be worrying about than keeping photos of every CTA passenger ad nauseum.


The location of passport control booths depends upon how individual airports are designed. Some airports (such as Zurich, Copenhagen and Oslo) have separate Schengen/non-Schengen departure areas, whilst others don't.


It depends upon space availability and terminal design.

Stimpyone

What makes it worse is that Schönefeld has stopped allowing Aer Lingus gold circle members use the Junkers Lounge. In fairness it is a rubbish Lounge but at least it’s air conditioned and away from the madness that is Schönefeld Airport in the summer!.

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm sure MI5 have better things to be worrying about than keeping photos of every CTA passenger ad nauseum.

Given the revelations of the last few months, I'm not sure that's true. If GCHQ want to keep copies of peoples (mostly naked) webchats on Yahoo, MI5 could reasonably want to keep photos of travellers.

Simon Gruber Says

Another year, another delay "Current estimates suggest that the airport will open in 2018 or 2019, at the latest."

The place is just becoming a money pit at this stage and Schönefeld is only getting worse.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Simon Gruber Says

Fred Swanson wrote: »

I assume that Tegel will close also when the new airport eventually opens?

Yeah, both existing airports are to close when then new EDDB comes into operation. The thrid, Templehof has already been closed for a few years and is now a nice public park with the runways and terminal building still there.

WishUWereHere

Fred Swanson wrote:

Originally Posted by Fred Swanson View Post
I assume that Tegel will close also when the new airport eventually opens?

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/world/thank-you-tegel-berliners-bid-emotional-farewell-to-cold-war-airport/ar-BB1aOo5I?ocid=msedgdhp

goingnowhere

Tegel is technically closed as today, but is held in reserve for a few months in case anything goes wrong

Schönefeld is still very much in business

Noxegon

And now they're talking about mothballing BER T5 (otherwise known as SXF) for a year.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2020/11/24/berlin-airports-terminal-5-expected-to-close-in-march-2021/

Good news for the customer experience, if not necessarily for the low fare airlines.

Jack1985

Noxegon wrote: »

And now they're talking about mothballing BER T5 (otherwise known as SXF) for a year.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2020/11/24/berlin-airports-terminal-5-expected-to-close-in-march-2021/

Good news for the customer experience, if not necessarily for the low fare airlines.

Exactly, having previously flown from both SXF and later TXL as a passenger, they were old airports and really felt like bus terminals, I deplored SXF and similarly hated the C gates at TXL.

Plenty of capacity for BER to cater to all traffic at the new main Terminal, potentially in better times the old SXF can be redeveloped as an LCC Terminal - In of course a timeline that is met.

Noxegon

I suspect that SXF won’t reopen in a year no matter what they might be saying at the moment.