Religion and being gay

castrolracing

I came out to my family and a few close friends just over a year ago. I come from a pretty catholic family in the west of Ireland. I have made made great strides in accepting and dealing with my sexuality in the last year or two. (At least great strides for me, considering where I was). My family have accepted that I'm gay but would prefer I wasn't. It has been rarely mentioned since I told them, which I'm not sure is a good thing, but its how it is. I think they have been really good considering that it was a real shock to them and goes totally against their belief system.

My parents, brothers and sisters are regular mass goers, they're not mad into religion but it is a big part of their lives. I also believe in god and I go to mass, not regularly but as often as I can. I also like to pray a little. I'm not at all sure it's any good but the way I look at it, it can't do any harm. There are certain things however, which I can't see as being believable in the catholic faith. The most thing being that Catholics believe, that during the Eucharist the bread and wine actually turn into the body and blood of Christ. I'd see it more as a symbolism of the body and blood of Christ rather than the actual real thing. Anyway, that's a side issue.

About 5-6 years ago I went to confessions for Xmas. I went to a priest I didn't know and be didnt know me. In it, I told him that I was gay. He asked if I had 'acted', on my homosexual feelings. I said yes, he asked if I'd planned the action or if it was just a spur of the moment thing. I said it was a spur of the moment thing, which wasnt true. He told me that I should suppress my feelings and not to act on them again and said that god forgave me. I didn't know what to make of what he had said and I suppose I still don't. I never mentioned it again to anyone until I came out to my family and friends. After this I was at confessions again, which I do about once a year. I went again to a priest I didn't know and he didnt know me. I wanted to talk to him about me being gay. I remember going into the confessional box and while I couldn't see him properly, I could see that he had a walking stick and a rather long beard. He was obviously elderly. The priest I had went to the previous time I said I was gay was a much younger guy, I would say in his late sixties. This older guy asked me about my sins. I told him that I'm gay but that I don't consider it a sin and if he or god considers it a sin then tough! It's part of who and what I am. I told him I strive to life my life as best I can and to be honest with myself and to try and respect others. To my surprise he praised me for my assertiveness and honesty. He explained that I should go out, hold my head up high and be myself. I was taken aback by his reaction. I left the confessional in a great mood. It was I suppose a form of validation for me. I didn't ask him, which in hindsight I should have about the churches teachings on homosexuality.

I still keep up my faith, I'm not fanatical about it but I like to have it play some part in my life. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that Jesus ever said that its wrong to be gay. Are there any other gay guys who like to have religion play some part in their lives or am I alone in my beliefs? Im sure some of you are going to come back saying that the Catholic Church are anti gay and deserve to be banished after all the scandals of recent times, and if you do, you're entitled to your views. I just want to hear what are your views on my story.

nozzferrahhtoo

The response you got from the first priest seems to be more in line with what I personally thought Catholic Teaching was. Which is a kind of "Hate the sin not the sinner" mentality where by it is perfectly ok to BE gay but not to act on it. A recently departed user of the forum, best forgotten, would normally post in this forum telling people that his Christian churches line on it was that all sex outside marriage is sinful and wrong and against god. Since homosexuals can not get married, and he wanted us to do everything in our power to keep it that way, that therefore homosexual sex is also sinful, wrong and against god. For him, and for many others, there simply is no way to reconcile homosexual sex with their views on the institution of marriage in the eyes of god.

All that said you are far from alone. The above is just one set of interpretations and not all Christians, in fact not all Catholics, agree with it. There are many people living by a completely different set of interpretations. They can not both be right, but that is for you to reconcile with yourself, not for us to do it for you.

One popular example is the blogger and writer Andrew Sullivan. Perhaps you would do well to read his stuff. He writes a blog called The Daily Dish I think. He is a practicing Catholic himself. He is also Homosexual and proud of it. There are many resources out there like that, and people like yourself, and you should not consider yourself alone in this experience by any means.

carly_86

I went to confessions as well a few years ago and told him i had a partner etc etc but my parents don't know and i am still not ready to come out to them. Anyways the priest was happy for me he said you can't help who you fall in love with that god loves us all. He was really nice i just needed to tell someone.

floggg

I'm not religious at all myself, though my uncle is a catholic priest (in the heart of the Bible Belt in the US).

On learning I was gay, he emailed me to tell me how he supported me and was proud of me (obviously for who I am as a whole, not the gay thing).

I would hope he would also be like that if any of his parishioners approached him to discuss. He's generally a very warm and caring man.

There are some very open, loving and forward thinking priests out there. The problem is that so few speak up, though I guess that's a matter for another thread.

RiseToMe

I am gay, civil partnered and catholic I am very proud of all three.

Where are you based? There is a lgbt church in dublin.

bleepp

castrolracing wrote: »

I came out to my family and a few close friends just over a year ago. I come from a pretty catholic family in the west of Ireland. I have made made great strides in accepting and dealing with my sexuality in the last year or two. (At least great strides for me, considering where I was). My family have accepted that I'm gay but would prefer I wasn't. It has been rarely mentioned since I told them, which I'm not sure is a good thing, but its how it is. I think they have been really good considering that it was a real shock to them and goes totally against their belief system.

My parents, brothers and sisters are regular mass goers, they're not mad into religion but it is a big part of their lives. I also believe in god and I go to mass, not regularly but as often as I can. I also like to pray a little. I'm not at all sure it's any good but the way I look at it, it can't do any harm. There are certain things however, which I can't see as being believable in the catholic faith. The most thing being that Catholics believe, that during the Eucharist the bread and wine actually turn into the body and blood of Christ. I'd see it more as a symbolism of the body and blood of Christ rather than the actual real thing. Anyway, that's a side issue.

About 5-6 years ago I went to confessions for Xmas. I went to a priest I didn't know and be didnt know me. In it, I told him that I was gay. He asked if I had 'acted', on my homosexual feelings. I said yes, he asked if I'd planned the action or if it was just a spur of the moment thing. I said it was a spur of the moment thing, which wasnt true. He told me that I should suppress my feelings and not to act on them again and said that god forgave me. I didn't know what to make of what he had said and I suppose I still don't. I never mentioned it again to anyone until I came out to my family and friends. After this I was at confessions again, which I do about once a year. I went again to a priest I didn't know and he didnt know me. I wanted to talk to him about me being gay. I remember going into the confessional box and while I couldn't see him properly, I could see that he had a walking stick and a rather long beard. He was obviously elderly. The priest I had went to the previous time I said I was gay was a much younger guy, I would say in his late sixties. This older guy asked me about my sins. I told him that I'm gay but that I don't consider it a sin and if he or god considers it a sin then tough! It's part of who and what I am. I told him I strive to life my life as best I can and to be honest with myself and to try and respect others. To my surprise he praised me for my assertiveness and honesty. He explained that I should go out, hold my head up high and be myself. I was taken aback by his reaction. I left the confessional in a great mood. It was I suppose a form of validation for me. I didn't ask him, which in hindsight I should have about the churches teachings on homosexuality.

I still keep up my faith, I'm not fanatical about it but I like to have it play some part in my life. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think that Jesus ever said that its wrong to be gay. Are there any other gay guys who like to have religion play some part in their lives or am I alone in my beliefs? Im sure some of you are going to come back saying that the Catholic Church are anti gay and deserve to be banished after all the scandals of recent times, and if you do, you're entitled to your views. I just want to hear what are your views on my story.

I can relate to everything you said. Being gay aswell as a practicing catholic can for many seem like an impossible task, after all how can one find a place for themself in a Church which teaches that for a gay person to succumb to their most natural of emotions is detrimental to humanity. It is difficult to see the love of Christ amongst such ignorance but the only way forward is to resort back to the basics of what it means to be Catholic.

Love one another, do good and treat folk well. Follow the Christ as portrayed in the Gospels, a loving, humble man who spent his entire mission preaching about God'd never ending love and forgiveness. That is the core message of Catholicism. Being gay is secondary to everything else, it shouldn't even venture into one's prayer life. Why ponder and waste time worrying about a specific part of you that will never change. If you do your best and treat people with dignity, forgive always and love endlessly then you are living a good life and the Church is and should be extremely proud if you.

The notion of gay being a sin is nonsense. How can one's sexuality be an abomination when God made them this way. To ask a gay person to ignore their emotional/sexual desires towards a partner runs contrary to humanity itself. Is the refusal of love among consensual adults not a greater abomination to humanity?

I suppose what i'm trying to say is that you must be proud of who you are and continue to grow in faith within the Church. God's love is unconditional and will always exist. The church would do well to refocus and remember that it's divine purpose is to bring people closer to Jesus who loved everyone regardless of who or what they were, and not waste time trying to pick out faults in God's creations.

Jesus never said anything about homosexuality in his teachings but he said a whole lot about acceptance, tolerance and love. Such a pity the Church doesn't do the same.

castrolracing wrote: »

There are certain things however, which I can't see as being believable in the catholic faith. The most thing being that Catholics believe, that during the Eucharist the bread and wine actually turn into the body and blood of Christ. I'd see it more as a symbolism of the body and blood of Christ rather than the actual real thing. Anyway, that's a side issue.

Ah yes, the aul transubstantiation. Probably the most difficult part of faith after the Resurrection. Keep at it. Prayer and Mass help deepen you belief in the Eucharist. I remember a priest giving a whole sermon about how we must not allow ourselves to see communion as mere symbolism. Doing so would practically render the Catholic faith null and void. the Eucharist is the be all and end all in relation to Church. Do pray however for an understanding of it.


Also, I know a lot of people on here have absolutely no time for Church and see the whole story as fairy tale. I'm not trying to convert anyone, just giving my two cents on the OP's query. :cool:

username_here

Probably sounds a bit mad and I'm not religious myself but what do you think Jesus would say? I'm pretty sure he was all about love and happiness not hatred towards his own creations.

Anyway God made you exactly the way you are, and obviously being omniscient and omnipresent he knew exactly the way your orientation would turn out. So either he intended for you to be the way you are or it's all a sick joke intended to fcuk you up. I'm thinking the former.

Anyway, surely the mastermind who created the universe, time, maths, stars and life isn't too concerned as to whether your partner has a Y chromosome or not? I wouldn't worry about it too much.

hotmail.com

What on earth were you going to confession for?

castrolracing

RiseToMe wrote: »

I am gay, civil partnered and catholic I am very proud of all three.

Where are you based? There is a lgbt church in dublin.

hotmail.com wrote: »

What on earth were you going to confession for?

I go to confessions because its part of my faith. I'm in the west of Ireland.

Thanks for all your replies. I appreciate your comments. I think, as has been said that if Jesus did exist he wouldn't be anti-gay. He preached about love and kindness and Surly love between two men is no just that, love.

I think that we have come a long way in recent years as a society when it comes to gay rights and issues. The problem is that the Catholic Church is for the most part, made up of people who are of an older generation who find it difficult and indeed impossible to change their beliefs and views. I think we as gay people need to be understanding of this, just as we expect people to be understanding of our way of life. I think a lot of people in the gay movement expect these older generation to all of a sudden accept our way of life. That's unfair in my opinion.

hotmail.com

castrolracing wrote: »

I go to confessions because its part of my faith. I'm in the west of Ireland.

Thanks for all your replies. I appreciate your comments. I think, as has been said that if Jesus did exist he wouldn't be anti-gay. He preached about love and kindness and Surly love between two men is no just that, love.

I think that we have come a long way in recent years as a society when it comes to gay rights and issues. The problem is that the Catholic Church is for the most part, made up of people who are of an older generation who find it difficult and indeed impossible to change their beliefs and views. I think we as gay people need to be understanding of this, just as we expect people to be understanding of our way of life. I think a lot of people in the gay movement expect these older generation to all of a sudden accept our way of life. That's unfair in my opinion.

Then stop going to mass. Then maybe they'll change. You're going to be waiting along time hoping that they will change. The Catholic Church is a homophobic organisation that supports discrimination against you. Time to divorce the Church.

I really did think going to confession had ended. It's bizarre that you went.

eviltwin

Its great to read that there are priests out there who are very supportive of gay Catholics but for me the fact that the faith preaches that being gay is a sin and is supportive of discrimination means I could never ever have anything to do with it. I don't how gay catholics or family/friends of gay people are able to get past that.

Cosmic Maybe

hotmail.com wrote: »

I really did think going to confession had ended. It's bizarre that you went.

Why is it "bizarre" that he went to confession? If that's what the OP believes he's fully entitled to go without people judging him. I think it's ridiculous the way some LGBT people go on about religion. They expect (and rightly) to be treated with respect by all the various religious groups and yet at the same time belittle those who have faith.

Personally, I wouldn't consider myself to be overly religious, I go to mass with my family when I'm at home but I would rarely go up in Dublin. As far as I'm concerned the Catholic Church, (and all the other churches for that matter), are man made. The Vatican, the pope, cardinals etc are all human inventions. However, I would like to believe that there is a God and although I wouldn't pray on a regular basis I still think it's nice to have that bit of comfort when you're going through a stressful or difficult time.

If the OP feels that going to confession brings him that bit closer to God let him be. That does not necessarily means that he endorses or agrees with all of the Churches teachings and viewpoints and is by no means bizarre. As my mum once said, why should we have to lose our faith just because of the actions of a few?

castrolracing

Bizarre? Why do you think it's bizarre hotmail.com?

I don't see it like that at all and it isn't something that has stopped. It has, as most of aspects of the Catholic Church declined but plenty of people still go to confessions. Cosmic Maybe has made some very valid points. Thanks for your contribution. I think with me, I kinda see my faith as being separate from the Catholic Church. As has been said, the pope, bishops etc are a man made invention to preach the catholic faith. Thats why it makes me a but sad to hear of people turning away from their faith because of the wrong doings of members of the Catholic Church. I don't condone the awful things that a minority of the clergy did, but it doesn't interfere with my faith. They are 2 separate things. For example, a minority of lay teachers were involved in abuse, that doesn't mean I turn away from education.

nozzferrahhtoo

I do not think that the problem most people have is that a "minority of priests were involved in abuse". That of course angers people but as you say you would not turn away from education just because a minority of teachers abuse.

The problem many people have is that the institution the priests were part of then engaged in a systematic cover up and/or facilitation of that abuse. From silencing victims.... to re-assigning priests to abuse again or to move them beyond the reaches of justice.... to dragging heels on, or refusing entirely to, paying out of compensation payments.... to trying to divert blame and guilt to others rather than admitting to it themselves. And so on, the list is long but suffice to say peoples main ire is not directed at... or fueled by... the "minority of priests who abuse".

However I do not think this is the topic direction you wanted the thread to take. Hotmail has indicated his issues with the church, probably best to take them on the chin and move on as this is not where you wanted the thread to go.... nor are you likely to dissuade him (or me for that matter) about those feelings because they are all well substantiated and justified.

You are more interested in other gay catholic experiences and how they resolved their faith with their homosexuality and they are more the responses you want to read and reply to. I would be curious to see if you spent time reading Andrew Sullivan and what you thought of his stuff. I know him only by his TV appearances and have not read his material, but I recognize he writes a lot about his reconciliation of catholic faith with his homosexuality.

lottpaul

I've been debating whether or not to reply to this thread. Discussions on religion (and politics) rarely turn out well and tend to stir deep emotions within us that are almost instinctive, inherited, cultural etc.

To the OP, I think if you can reconcile your faith and sexuality then that is your affair and no one elses and people should support you in that. In fairness as far as I am aware the whole issue of being gay is rarely a topic for sermons in most churches. That can be both good and bad - more of that later.
Your family sounds typical of many for whom Mass attendance is part of their life and they are unlikely to change. Their reaction to you being gay is typical too - lets not talk about it and it might go away, but that may change too - in time.

On a more general level I totally understand the deep hurt, anger and even hatred that some people feel towards all forms of organised religion in this country. Part of that stems from the utter hypocrisy preached at us for generations about sexuality in all of its forms, from the Bishop Casey, Fr Michael Cleary stories, to the reprehensible cover up of abuse of children and women by the institutions of the church from the lowest to the highest level, and many other issues too.
I'm not a Roman Catholic but growing up in "Catholic Ireland" the control exercised by the clergy over the sexual lives of ordinary people was not a positive element. I say "ordinary" not in a dismissive or condescending way but to emphasise that there was a huge class element to much of this hypocrisy. Some priests stood in pulpits and berated people for any forms of "immoral" conduct while at the same time leading lives that were far from stainless (by their own standards) themselves. And there was most certainly one law for the wealthy and one for everyone else -- there are numerous examples of people in second relationships, cohabiting, using family planning etc etc who never felt the crack of a bishops crozier simple because of the social class they belonged to. It has shades of the book "Animal Farm" where all animals are created equal -- but some are more equal than others!
On a more gay-centric level, yes there are many clergy who are gay and many more who are supportive of gay people on an individual level - but more of them should speak out publicly, as retired bishop Willie Walsh and Fr Tony Flannery have done. Not doing so perpetuates the hurt and hypocrisy.
On the Protestant side of things we too have far to go. The Church of Ireland is very divided on the whole matter of gay clergy, gay marriage etc but at least it is being discussed. Other more fundamentalist churches have policies that mirror some of the more extreme US churches. (One of the few occasions that the RC church and Rev Ian Paisleys Free Presbyterians have ever agreed on anything was an infamous "Save Ulster from Sodomy" campaign in the 1970/80s. There was no official co-operation but there was much tacit support from the RC church).
Bottom line is - religions (of all shades) are different things to different peoples. There are good,bad and indifferent, and within each there are clergy and laity who bring shame to their faith and others who are examples of kindness and generosity of spirit and action.
I could not personally subscribe to a religion that officially described me, my partner and our relationship as disordered, evil etc, but I could see that people would want to remain within it and try to change attitudes in that way.
But to each their own. Hopefully the day is coming where no religion will have an influence over how we live our lives unless we want it to. We will be able to attend schools, hospitals etc where the only priority is to teach, heal, care etc regardless of the doctrines of any creed.
(Will stop now -- rant over for a while)

hotmail.com

Ah confession is for the birds. Let's be honest.

The OP's first mistake was going there and thinking that the Catholic Church would respect gay people. They don't, never have and never will.

Edit: I do take their hateful comments personally and I am personally offended by them. The new pope has made very hurtful comments about me and other lesbian and gay people. How a gay person can just ignore this is something that is beyond me.

Cosmic Maybe

hotmail.com wrote: »

Ah confession is for the birds. Let's be honest.

The OP's first mistake was going there and thinking that the Catholic Church would respect gay people. They don't, never have and never will.

Edit: I do take their hateful comments personally and I am personally offended by them. The new pope has made very hurtful comments about me and other lesbian and gay people. How a gay person can just ignore this is something that is beyond me.

Where exactly did the OP say that he thought the Church would respect gay people? I think he's well aware, as is everyone else on the Church's views on everything gay related. The same way everyone is well aware of the Church's views on sex, contraception and divorce. The thing is very few people pay any heed to those views but still go to mass or confession because they believe in God and they feel that that is the best way to show their faith.

Do you not think its kind of offensive to the millions of ordinary people that believe in God to suggest that they're "for the birds". Fair enough if the pope, or anyone else for that matter, says things which offend you and others say what you like about him, he's fair game, but there's no need to assume that just because someone goes to mass or whatever that they listen to the pope or the Catholic hierarchy.