segregation

kelledy

if im clipping fire tuf cable across a ceiling and it crosses path with some 10mmsq cable which is also clipped.... would this be against regs??

Calgary22

do you not have the regs to look it up?:D

kelledy

Calgary22 wrote: »

do you not have the regs to look it up?:D

cant find it in regs. also isnt fire regs seperate.

Calgary22

From the notes i have regarding that it says.
A spaceing in the air of at least 300mm from the runs of other cables of other services. it also says how it should be run in segregated trunking etc and clearly marked blah blah. but from your post it i would say it would be against the rules as it would be bad practice as the cable could be effected interference etc from other circuits. but some of the other lads that wire with it reguraly would no.

kelledy

Calgary22 wrote: »

From the notes i have regarding that it says.
A spaceing in the air of at least 300mm from the runs of other cables of other services. it also says how it should be run in segregated trunking etc and clearly marked blah blah. but from your post it i would say it would be against the rules as it would be bad practice as the cable could be effected interference etc from other circuits. but some of the other lads that wire with it reguraly would no.

spoke to a lad there and he said a quick hop over is no problem once they dont
travel together for a meter r so. can anybody confirm this??

Mr.Fred

I wouldn't have thought it would be an issue.

Ive seen far worse done just be sure to clip your cable under the other cable if possible.

The fire tough will be clipped using cables designed to retain the cable in the event of a fire the 10sq cable won''t be so although unlikely if the fire were to melt the swa glands the 10sq would be held up by the fire tough and most likely wouldn't last long.

I suppose you could always use a couple of metres of conduit to cross the swa either.

Mr.Fred

kelledy wrote: »

spoke to a lad there and he said a quick hop over is no problem once they dont
travel together for a meter r so. can anybody confirm this??

I wouldn't put it over the cable under if possible if not use a piece of conduit or tray.

Calgary22

yea i have seen far worse too but since its for a fas exam and were ment to be 100% by the rules it could come back to bite you i have seen them cable tied to other cables on jobs but this is not a job sadly its a test.

Yea could use a double offset to kinda bunny hop over it. i no its a bit extreme but thats what i will be doing if its a problem

Mr.Fred

Well if it's a test and there's no other route then you need to ensure the route you take with the cable is planned so as you don't cross any other cables.

However in the event you have no option but to cross over a cable you'd need to ensure that you have sufficient containment for the cable so it will not be effected in any way through any course of events.

It would be best to hang tray from the ceiling for that section and tie your cable on using steel cable ties or else tube the entire firealarm and don't use clips at all. This is a far neater job anyway and the cost in materials is probably eased by the savings in labour.

What exam is it anyway?

Calgary22

Yea i agree with Mr.Fred.

kelledy

its a competancy test for craft cert with fas.
basically it has to be by the regs and work and dats pretty much it.
the job has a main board and a sub board and the feed between is to be clipped across the entire ceiling from one board to another.... then we have smoke heads on same zone either side of mains cable... i mean once these cables crossing isnt against the regs ill be fine.

kelledy

also the idea of dropping tray etc down is out of the question...this is just a large cubicle and we have to wire a mock resturant/warehouse .... so we gta think pretty basically about it.
also everyrhn has to be surface mounted.......so im wondering how im going to get to other side of mains cable to pick up smoke heads and if it would be an issue.

Mr.Fred

kelledy wrote: »

its a competancy test for craft cert with fas.
basically it has to be by the regs and work and dats pretty much it.
the job has a main board and a sub board and the feed between is to be clipped across the entire ceiling from one board to another.... then we have smoke heads on same zone either side of mains cable... i mean once these cables crossing isnt against the regs ill be fine.

Does it have to be clipped could you not use a LV tray for the mains/power and an ELV tray for fire alarm data etc and you could run a trunking along with it all mounted on uni strut suspended from the ceiling by threaded rod. It would be easy to tube out of the bottom of the trunking for skts/power and you could mount your kliks for lights on the trunking or tube off of it.

There would be no cables crossing. You could jump up off the tray with the fire alarm and tube out to each head?

Don't forget your I/O's for door releases etc. I'm not sure what the spec is but the lay out I mention above would be the usual routine. You'll see cowboys feckin cables across the ceilings etc but there's usually one main route for all cabling and you branch off this.

Mr.Fred

kelledy wrote: »

also the idea of dropping tray etc down is out of the question...this is just a large cubicle and we have to wire a mock resturant/warehouse .... so we gta think pretty basically about it.
also everyrhn has to be surface mounted.......so im wondering how im going to get to other side of mains cable to pick up smoke heads and if it would be an issue.

Sounds like a bull **** job to be honest. I'm not sure on the regs regarding cable routing and crossing. Segregation will not come into it as far as I know this is more for containment situations. Tray/trunking etc.

Could you not tube the fire alarm and by tube you don't need to put on angle boxes etc. Use female bushings and leave them short as you come out of the main run to branch off for heads and drops etc.

Either way you'll want the fire alarm in first don't clip the main and then clip the fire alarm over it.

kelledy

nah fas are really picky about material etc so that kind of carry on is out of the question. were basically handed 8/9 meters of 10square and a pack of clips... time is tight too... if i really have to ill jump the mains cable with conduit but if a quick tuck under the mains with the fire tuff is acceptable then thats what im going to do

like i said they arnt lookn for miricles.... just a basic working installation

kelledy

ye i cud have done that... but tbh.. clipping is all there looking for.. we have trunking to for sockets switches etc thats all segregated. . its not the worst exam ever but there really tight fisted with material so were told neatmess isnt priority... correct cable usage and selection and meeting d regs s wat they want

Calgary22

for sure mate thats all we want one that works and under the time set:D

Mr.Fred

Typical Fas alright, sure why would you bother showing an apprentice how to do a job properly!!

Well good luck with it. Those with a bit more knowledge on the regs might be able to help you out. The info will be out there somewhere but trawling through the regs is a head melt.

Good Luck with the exam.

Could you not ask your instructor or one of the instuctors in fas??

Calgary22

The exam is ran in fas by the instructors so they cant offer any help there just there to supervise the exam..

kelledy

i wudnt be suprised if this is brought in for every apprentice now regardless of situation.
so the idea of getting ur cert after 4 years of bending conduit and handing tools will be gone for good.

Calgary22

Kelledy they are from someone in fas i was talking too. the likes of esb apprentices will be screwed. but like they should be doing there own apprenticeship in linework canada has a separate apprenticeship for them Ireland should follow suit. i was told that this is the plan to rollout to everyone.

Tbh i think this is a great idea if they do as it will show really if someone is up to the standard to be an electrician.

2011

kelledy wrote: »

if im clipping fire tuf cable across a ceiling and it crosses path with some 10mmsq cable which is also clipped.... would this be against regs??

In short, no.
I would like to have a mechanical barrier if I did this.

If possible it is best that the fire alarm cabling is kept 100% separate from mains cabling.
In reality this is rarely possible.
When these cables have to cross best practice is to:
1) Keep the crosses to a minimum
2) When crosses occur have them at 90 degrees to each other.

It is permitted to have fire alarm cabling and mains cabling (including 400VAC 3 phase) sharing a tray or trunking once there is a mechanical barrier (such as filleted trunking).
Generally separate containment is used.

kelledy

2011 wrote: »

In short, no.
I would like to have a mechanical barrier if I did this.

If possible it is best that the fire alarm cabling is kept 100% separate from mains cabling.
In reality this is rarely possible.
When these cables have to cross best practice is to:
1) Keep the crosses to a minimum
2) When crosses occur have them at 90 degrees to each other.

It is permitted to have fire alarm cabling and mains cabling (including 400VAC 3 phase) sharing a tray or trunking once there is a mechanical barrier (such as filleted trunking).
Generally separate containment is used.

yes it will be at 90°... basically i have mains cable from one side of room to another. then firetuf cable will come in from the side ... quick cross over and that would be it.
there will be no parallell runs etc

2011

kelledy wrote: »

yes it will be at 90°... basically i have mains cable from one side of room to another. then firetuf cable will come in from the side ... quick cross over and that would be it.
there will be no parallell runs etc

Grand so.

beanie10

Its ok to cross over at 90 deg but not to run with mains cable. Make sure you use metal clips for fire tuf