Samurai Swords

pcthenatural

I was just wondering if samurai swords are still illegal in Ireland because I would love to get one because I have always been interested in Japanese swords like katanas etc.

Carvin

They were banned a few years ago from what I remember.
Haven't seen them in the places that used to sell them since.
There's a few awkward loopholes that I've seen posted here before.

Peetrik

Banned unless they were...

(i) made before 1954, or
(ii) made at any other time according to traditional methods
of making swords by hand.”.

... as of 2009 according to this

pearsquasher

The most important thing though is to find a proper teacher either a) their use or b) their appreciation c) both?

Do you want to be the person with a sword-shaped lump of badly manufactured metal mounted the wrong way over your fireplace?

Do you want to be the guy who goes to a sword seminar, asks to see a sword that the teacher brings and proceeds to handle it so incorrectly he's forever ignored at future seminars - despite the fact he said he studied a sword art already?

Do you REALLY want to know about swords, be a valued member of sword appreciation community, be known as someone who knows what they are talking about? Be the guy who can walk into a genuine sword retailers in Tokyo and the owner knows in 2 minutes by your questions and body language to bring you around the back to see the really good swords?

Swords are serious business and there's enough crappy katanas being sold out there to show you can go down the half-assed route easy enough.

Peetrik

In fairness to the guy Pearsquasher, you don't have to become a postman if you're interested in collecting stamps

pearsquasher

... but if you are a postman and you collect stamps the chances of you having a great collection of stamps and the knowledge of stamp collecting and the connection to folks who are the top of their game in stamp collecting increases somewhat. No?

.. or you could just have a little folder somewhere with a handful of interesting stamps that no-one cares about, and get no more than a raised eyebrow at the next stamp fair.

There is a scale, and with swords.... the high end of it is probably tiny compared to the low end. Its not about trying to be elitist or anything... it's about your own standards and quality of interest. I'm just painting a picture of whats possible in a sea of mediocrity....:)

Niall Keane

Quality will vary greatly in swords, even “traditionally” made examples. Short-cuts are still “allowed” so buyer beware!

Here’s a link describing what’s on offer, along with some advice on specific quality standards relating to what’s on offer out there.

http://www.sword-manufacturers-guide.com/katana-swords.html



Also remember, a sword is designed for a sole purpose – killing people.
Be as careful with storing it as you would a fire arm, maybe more so? People don’t seem to take them as seriously, which in a way makes them more dangerous, so a sword over a mantel piece can be disastrous in the hands of say a tipsy guest!

A number of years ago I had a few people back after a night out, my sister and I had stopped off in a 24 hour so they were back before me. One lad (quite an excellent martial artist) had taken up one of my sabres. I have many Chinese weapons, some not sharpened and used to train. He had mistakenly believed the weapon in his hands was a practice Dao (Chinese Sabre). On my entering the house, he lunged at me aiming at my mid-section. I parried with my palm and seized the sword, intending on telling him of his error. With excellent form he drew back the weapon exactly as one should (in combat) if seized and sliced my fingers. I needed 48 stitched and was given a general anaesthetic the next day for surgery where a plastic surgeon specialist stitched back together nerves. Part of my index finger is still numb to this day and will remain so. I was lucky nothing more severe happened, and benefited from practice having had the reflex to parry, otherwise I would probably have experienced evisceration, which is an experience I can do without.

Beyond the accidents to be avoided, remember such weapons are not meant to be touched; oil from the skin harms and corrodes blades. I refuse to allow people to handle weapons now, which I guess makes you out to be a bit of an asshole in a visitor’s eyes, (people don’t like to be told no as if they are children) as I’ve found that even if you warn and explain to people why not to, they inevitably touch the blade to “feel” its sharpness etc. To me this is like someone coming along with their crayon and marking up a Picasso just to test the canvas. Once a blade is damaged, repairing it requires a serious effort and obviously requires “wearing away” the damaged area which in itself is “damaging” the sword albeit in an “even” way. Likewise sharpening – you are basically wearing away the sword.

On sharpening….
DO NOT use grinders or such means! This generates heat and so messes up the temper of the steel! There is a skill to looking after and polishing a weapon in itself. You can’t not look after it either, as high-carbon steel corrodes if left untreated.

Remember always that children love swords, think of all the cartoon heroes etc. So if there is a chance of children being around, best store them in secure inaccessible places, like a gun. A good blade is like a very long chef’s knife and “glides” through meat / flesh! Again it’s a good reason not to allow any guests go near them, I’ve seen adults hand their children martial art weapons of the fully functional variety with a stern warning of “be very very careful”, I have my doubts that they would hand the same children kitchen knives? It makes you wonder?( Personally I keep such weapons out of sight of guests, so doesn't encourage either big or small children into thinking they are toys to be played with.)

On a final note, you can get swords for $200 that are excellent entry level pieces, they cut well, and are fully functional. But details vary. For a functional weapon for example a “full tang” is necessary, basically the sword continues to the end of the handle, and is fixed at the end and/or through the handle in a couple of places. But if the tang isn’t wide enough, the blade will “rotate” uncontrollably in use inside the handle, even if the handle is of a proper hardwood etc. Also be aware of fake hamon lines, faking a differential temper, they are trash! Basically the blade edge needs to be of harder (but that means more brittle) steel to hold an edge, whereas the spine of a sword needs to have the ability to absorb impact, and so is softer and less brittle. One way of doing this is to differentially temper the sword, using clay to slow down the cooling process in one area as it is placed in the water. Any genuine pieces I've seen using such technique never had a uniform wave hamon! Educate yourself on techniques such as the 5 elements of a katana blade, blade, core, two sides and spine, the 3 day and night process (spiritual ritual actually)of extracting steel from ore used by Japanese sword smiths, and other manufacturing methods such as simply using “spring” steel, and more skill and labour intensive practices such as “pattern welding” used in Damascus Steel etc. The skill required born of decades of practice, along with the arduous process involved in producing a single sword in a traditional fashion should give you an idea of how much it should cost.

pearsquasher

Nasty Niall...very nasty

My last thought on this....All knowledge about swords should be via a teacher who is WELL versed on what they are talking about..and that knowledge gets passed IN PERSON after a suitable vetting process.

One clue to their level of expertise... They do not let you handle a live blade until they know you well enough to examine their sword when they are not in the room. THAT could take a while...............beware anyone who does otherwise. Guns and swords are treated the same in this respect in Japanese budo.

Dyr

pearsquasher wrote: »

There is a scale, and with swords.... the high end of it is probably tiny compared to the low end. Its not about trying to be elitist or anything...;)

Ninja's probably wouldn't want to get too elitist about Japanese sword arts;)

When did you guys quit running around with those funky straight ninja swords anyway?

Niall Keane

Consider a sword smith starts out in some metallurgy discipline, then spends years making knives as it’s easier to uniformly control heat in shorter pieces. They have to get to know the precise hue of steel when it reaches the required temperature, too little or too much and the piece is ruined. The process of folding steel, or pattern welding takes time, and again has to be done in a certain time to avoid ruining the piece, this process is applied again and again for a single piece! Basically it can take decades to become a decent sword smith, and the mistakes necessary along the way cost time and money.

Then the process itself involves in some cases (traditional katana) even extracting the steel from a particular ore, 72 hours of keeping the fires blazing, using particular wood / charcoal as a mix for fuel, and raking, adding fuel, and ore, and gathering such. Then you have several weeks work producing a sword from the steel, refining the steel into 5 types, welding it together, and if no mistakes are made we can get a complete piece, even at this stage the sword needs to be placed in a custom handle that involves woodworking and leather / ray skin etc. skills. Finally the sword must be polished and sharpened, a long slow process and skill in itself.

Imagine hiring a specialist consultant to work 72 hours straight followed by 3-4 weeks of further 8-12 hour days? How much do you think his fee would be?

Now imagine he has made a name for himself, only a handful of people in the whole planet can do what he does, to the extent that his works are considered “national treasures”, (some Katanas you may own but may not take out of Japan!) Such is the high end, and most will be lucky enough to see such pieces behind a glass box.

It’s more affordable to get a piece done by an apprentice, but still they have put in the hours of work and years of practice. Again it’s on par with purchasing a piece of acclaimed artwork. You are still talking thousands!

The best option is probably to go for a piece made by factories like Hanwei / Paul Chen, who buy in their steel, mass produce different grades, and go from there, cutting out expensive processes, rituals and details. Functionally it’s similar, in the same way a print in Ikea or Woodies is to genuine artwork.

Of course (humorously goading the Samurais here) you could ditch the Japanese Katana idea, and its expression of spiritual perfection, become all Daoist and Kung Fu, “going with nature” accepting and working with imperfection and get a good quality Dao which will cut and handle just as well. ;-)

Japanese sword arts tend to favour comparatively hard blocks and decisive chops, and straight lines being the quickest route, whereas Chinese sword arts tend to parry and draw cut in similar situations, using angled stepping to empty the opponent’s attacks, along with angled parries to allow his weapon to be redirected slightly and so glide safely along ones blade. The tilting of the Dao of course sets up the counter attack. (It does require quite a bit of blade awareness to do this and preserve ones blade, not only is the weapon angled to the body but the blade of the weapon rotated slightly to protect the edge all during "the immediacy of combat") This isn’t a hard and fast rule, (I wouldn’t suggest absence of technique in either Chinese, Japanese or European sword arts, more stylistic preference) but contrast a Japanese Katana Kata to a Chinese Dao form (which should capture the spirit of an art), you should notice the directness and linear nature of Katana work compared to the flowing circles and zig-zag footwork of Dao work. The quality of blade may have had an influence! You can be all Zen, direct and resolute when you know your weapon won’t fail, and has been “tested” on a few prisoners, but you better be able to step out of the way if you carry any imperfections! (And don’t we all?)

Oh, and stay away from those Indonesian and Philippian guys those boys put demons in their swords and knives! ;-)

Carvin

Niall Keane wrote: »

Oh, and stay away from those Indonesian and Philippian guys those boys put demons in their swords and knives! ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris

Then you'd really have an issue with visitors touching your swords.

Damo W

Bambi wrote: »

Ninja's probably wouldn't want to get too elitist about Japanese sword arts;)

When did you guys quit running around with those funky straight ninja swords anyway?

Didn't Japanese swords start out being straight and only changed to curved blades during the mid to late Heian period (794-1184).... would that make the straight ones more authentic/original ?!!?!?

Dyr

Damo W wrote: »

Didn't Japanese swords start out being straight and only changed to curved blades during the mid to late Heian period (794-1184).... would that make the straight ones more authentic/original ?!!?!?

What happened in the nara period stays in the nara period

Ninja swords are never authentic, that's just how it is

Damo W

Bambi wrote: »

What happened in the nara period stays in the nara period

Ninja swords are never authentic, that's just how it is

Niall Keane

On a serious note, they bend naturally when being placed in water bath. Really cool to see! Due to differing properties of steel used thicknesses and insulating factors such as clay. A hot straight sword is plunged into water and a curved katana comes out!
Another piece of magic to get right for the sword smith, very different to getting a uniform lump of high carbon steel "persuading" it into a shape that echoes genuine pieces and then just sharpening!

peter carty

if your wanting to learn to use a sword try find an iaido club and they will advise you on the best sword to buy,remember most iai guys dont use a sharp sword they use iaito a blunt training sword and if your just into collecting weapons ive ordered a few katana from the uk and had no problem getting them try this link,email them and ask about shipping to ireland but as far as i know theres no problem..... http://www.barringtons-swords.com/

Damo W

Here is a nice summary.....

1. Jõkotõ (Chokutõ) Ancient and Heian period
2. Late Heian to Early Kamakura
3. Mid-Kamakura
4. Late Kamakura
5. Nanbokucho
6. Early Muromachi
7. Late Muromachi
8. Aizuchi-Momoyama
9. Mid-Edo
10. Edo period Genroku era
11. Edo, Bakamatsu
12. Meiji and onwards

and pics showing the changes.

Deise Musashi

I would not fancy having a very good Katana.
Technically you don't own it, you are it's custodian and responsible for it's maintenance.

I like to buy high carbon cutting swords, traditionally made, but new and ok to use cutting.

Hanwie used to do a practical katana or tactical katana? Full tang and micarta handles, not very traditional but good fun.



The matching Wak. was a wakizashi length with a katana length handle, there is a term for this style but I forget it.
Makes a useful sword though!

peter carty

Im sure there ok but wouldn't be my choice if your gona try cutting with them id really advise finding an iai school to teach you how to hold a sword properly, you probably won't have a problem cutting something but it's stopping the sword after the cut that's where you could end up doing damage to the sword and yourself, remember it only takes one mistake and you could do irreparable damage to yourself, but I don't think your gona find an iai club that teaches cutting I have to travel to the uk to learn and it's not easy to find a good instructor

smacl

Deise Musashi wrote: »

Hanwie used to do a practical katana or tactical katana?

They still do, and appear to be readily available from the UK here. I like the Paul Chen practical range, good quality well priced kit.

As others have already said, I can see no point whatsoever in getting these weapons without taking up the in-depth instruction on their use. Even then, when practising against an opponent, 99 times out of a hundred, we'd use wooden weapons, and that 100th time extreme caution is the order of the day.

dipti

Samurai swords are still banned as the crimes involving these swords have risen in recent years. They were misused like hell, as they were available on local streets for $90 only. Knife crime was spiraled out of control and forced forced Justice Minister Ahern to implement legislative changes.

Niall Keane

dipti wrote: »

Samurai swords are still banned as the crimes involving these swords have risen in recent years. They were misused like hell, as they were available on local streets for $90 only. Knife crime was spiraled out of control and forced forced Justice Minister Ahern to implement legislative changes.

Can you point us to a few cases of katana use in crime in Ireland? (hint: do some research and don't take tabloid journalism as fact, there is a difference between machete and katana!)

Mellor

Niall Keane wrote: »

Can you point us to a few cases of katana use in crime in Ireland? (hint: do some research and don't take tabloid journalism as fact, there is a difference between machete and katana!)

The origin, size, weight, shape, style, grind and material of a katana and a machete are totally different. But is that really relevant to the legality? In the hands of a lunatic running out of his house with one, they are pretty much equally dangerous.

A agree fully that katana, and samuri swords are thrown about by the media, and most of the time its not a technically correct description. But thats standard practice, dumb stuff down for the public, sell headlines.

smacl

Niall Keane wrote: »

Can you point us to a few cases of katana use in crime in Ireland? (hint: do some research and don't take tabloid journalism as fact, there is a difference between machete and katana!)

Hell yeah, can't be selling lethal weapons to just anyone now. Nice to see the €99 chain saws back in LIDL though! Also picked up a beaut of a two handed axe to split some logs down in my fathers a couple of weeks back, and it holds an edge brilliantly.

Doug Cartel

The thing about chain saws, axes and even machetes, is that they have legitimate uses as tools and a lot of people wouldn't be able to get work done if they were banned.

A cheap katana that is sold as an "ornament"? Not so much legitimate use for that, so no one is really going to complain if they ban those.

smacl

Doug Cartel wrote: »

The thing about chain saws, axes and even machetes, is that they have legitimate uses as tools and a lot of people wouldn't be able to get work done if they were banned.

A cheap katana that is sold as an "ornament"? Not so much legitimate use for that, so no one is really going to complain if they ban those.

True and I wouldn't call for any of them to be banned, but the type of gangland scum bag that would have a go at someone with a katana will simply use the next easily available lethal weapon where the katana isn't available. A well maintained machete will be a far superior functional weapon than an ornamental katana in the hands of an inexpert swordsman.

The point being that the legislation is something of a knee jerk reaction, where AFAIK the level of knife crime in this country relating to oriental weapons is not significant. Doesn't seem like the best use of resources in terms of tackling violent crime.

Barryooosh

Hello, I'm a noob. Recently, I put up for sale two types of swords on two different online selling sites and to my surprise both were promptly removed and I received an explanation that really confused me. Such was my confusion that i had to investigate further and googled around and around and around and around and around and....anyway, I am still unclear as to whether or not I can actually sell these swords as I had one of the swords on a site for the last 24 hrs and it was not removed until I myself removed it for fear of my front door being kicked in by an elite squad of anti ornamental/replica sword hating automatic gun yielding law enforcing officers(thoughts due to googling). I was led here by google and so, i'm trying to get a clearer and more direct answer to the question that seems to be baffling not only me.
Is there anywhere i can sell an Ornamental/replica. Sword either online or to a physical place anywhere??? I have a German ww2 military dress sword and a beautiful double bladed Ancient warrior samurai sword with stand. I have them for years and have no room for them in my new home and would like to sell them to someone who really appreciates the beauty of these swords! Thanks in advance.

llawlor

Barryoosh did you ever get an answer to this? I'm in a similar position-some ornamental swords I want to sell on and no clue where!

Barryooosh

No, never got a reply to this. I also asked a few questions in another thread concerning a coin collection i had and also got no reply to that either. Forgot i was still signed up for this. I still have my swords and have not found a place to sell them either. There are sites online alrite but most of these are overseas and the costs for selling and shipping if sold are expensive. Its hard to sell them in ireland alright because you would have to find collectors. I have mine still up in the attic.
I tried selling them to cash converters but the money he offered was a complete joke!!! Hope you have luck selling yours. If you do, let me know on this and i can try too. Now that you have reminded me i think ill take up a search again, if im lucky ill post here.

llawlor

Thanks for the reply!
I will have to do some looking about so. if I have any luck I'll let you know!
Thanks

Barryooosh wrote: »

No, never got a reply to this. I also asked a few questions in another thread concerning a coin collection i had and also got no reply to that either. Forgot i was still signed up for this. I still have my swords and have not found a place to sell them either. There are sites online alrite but most of these are overseas and the costs for selling and shipping if sold are expensive. Its hard to sell them in ireland alright because you would have to find collectors. I have mine still up in the attic.
I tried selling them to cash converters but the money he offered was a complete joke!!! Hope you have luck selling yours. If you do, let me know on this and i can try too. Now that you have reminded me i think ill take up a search again, if im lucky ill post here.

dipti

I think the authentic samurai swords are still banned because no updated news I can see on the internet regarding this. This happened due to increase in violent assaults that were taking place. Clear statement is mentioned " swords are considered to be an offensive weapon and if anyone found guilty of being involved in the sale then he may end up to get in jail for several years"